Spanish elections and politics III / Pedro Sánchez faces a new term as PM

[Zinneke]

As I typed the words about Junts, Ayuso right on cue displays the real face of the Spanish “unionist” Right : she wants to ensure all tax of major fortunes goes to Madrid’s coffers rather than Spain’s. Yet for some reason Convergents are the greedy ones, despite following through with their clamor for responsibility (i.e total independence from Spain), as opposed to Ayuso’s Madrid regionalism, which relies on sucking Spain dry of its young talent and its tax revenue in the process, all to be the bean counters of Mercosur, and run a Liz Truss redux operation, only its feasible as Spain will foot the bill for her Trussite paradise, and if Spain won’t foot the bill the Northern European tax payer will, or the ECB. The exact scenario that landed Spain in trouble of course was regional debt not being counted by the brainiacs in Frankfurt, instead they relied on the fact that Spain’s federal level was running a surplus. 

BUT BUT ASI EMPEZO VENEZUELA

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

Can someone please rename this thread? It's been over a month since Sept 26 and 27.

[Former President tack50]

As expected, Puigdemont is "stretching the rope" as much as possible and delaying, or rather "derailing", Sanchéz investiture. He now wants a broader amnesty, which from what I understand involves corruption charges, something the PSOE has said it is a "red line".

We'll see how this unfolds.

F**king unbelievable. Catalan nationalists are truly the masters of shooting themselves in the foot.

I think it's pretty clear by now that ERC is the only Catalan nationalist party, while JxC is Puidgemont nationalist.

Puigdemont is completely unpredictable and is no source of stability. If this drags on, I don't know what Sanchéz gains in trying to cling on to power desperately. Being on the hands of someone like Puigdemont is not a solution.

A couple weeks ago I'd have said the best course of action would have been for Sanchez to give up and go to a new election, but he has gone too far and now is kinda doomed to go all in.

Either Puigdemont makes him PM, or we get VP Abascal. There won't be an in between

[It's Perro Sanxe wot won it]

Another night of riots in Madrid:

https://twitter.com/eduardosuarez/status/1721999736951988725?s=20
Vox leaders attended the demonstrations again, with several far-right groups being present throwing objects at police and burning down urban infrastructure. PP distanced itself from the gatherings but criticized disproportionate police action while blaming the government for dividing the country.

On the other side, the Prime Minister remained defiant and stated on Twitter that he didn’t expect anything from those who condoned the siege of his party’s headquarters and that the PSOE will not be bent.

The social and political atmosphere has not been this tense since at least 2017. And we very likely haven’t reached the fever pitch.

[kaoras]

They actually did the Nazi salute and started singing the hymn of the blue division lol.

Any PSOE loses due to the amnesty will likely be mitigated by the sheer polarization (I have seen it first hand among Spaniards). Honestly, Sánchez is either the luckiest man alive or just an evil mastermind.

[Battista Minola 1616]

The Puigdemont cult and its consequences etc. (and yes I know it has causes as well as consequences, so I blame those as well, but they caused ERC even more and ERC is acting much more reasonably).

[Former President tack50]

The Puigdemont cult and its consequences etc. (and yes I know it has causes as well as consequences, so I blame those as well, but they caused ERC even more and ERC is acting much more reasonably).

One of the most bizarre things of Catalan politics has been the sudden transformation of ERC, which for 40 years was the hardline, no compromise pro-independence party into the moderate "adults in the room party"

And quite the sudden shift, as recently as October 1st 2017 Rufian was tweeting about Puigdemont selling Catalonia like Judas sold Jesus!

[CumbrianLefty]

They actually did the Nazi salute and started singing the hymn of the blue division lol.

Any PSOE loses due to the amnesty will likely be mitigated by the sheer polarization (I have seen it first hand among Spaniards). Honestly, Sánchez is either the luckiest man alive or just an evil mastermind.

Yes, this is all only going to make many voters more determined not to give Vox even a sniff of power.

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

If these protestors manage to turn themselves into Spain's own January 6 like they clearly want to be, how long before the next PP investidura involves them conceding amnistía for the rioters to form a government? Only being partially sarcastic here.

[wnwnwn]

The Puigdemont cult and its consequences etc. (and yes I know it has causes as well as consequences, so I blame those as well, but they caused ERC even more and ERC is acting much more reasonably).

One of the most bizarre things of Catalan politics has been the sudden transformation of ERC, which for 40 years was the hardline, no compromise pro-independence party into the moderate "adults in the room party"

And quite the sudden shift, as recently as October 1st 2017 Rufian was tweeting about Puigdemont selling Catalonia like Judas sold Jesus!

The radicals left ERC amd entered the CUP.

[Mike88]

Iberian Peninsula politics is right now a burning airplane crash.

[Logical]

Sanchez III here we go

https://twitter.com/eldiarioes/status/1722364742805635314

[MaxQue]

Simultaneously, at an emergency session, the General Council of the Judiciary passed an institutional declaration condemning the proposed amnesty law as an unprecedented threat to the rule of law. This comes after the conservative Professional Association of the Judiciary, representing almost 25% of all judges, stated last week that any amnesty law would mean the beginning of the end of democracy in Spain.

A grave breach of separation of powers. It shows the Spanish judiciary is in need of a root and branch surgery.

[Velasco]

Can someone please rename this thread? It's been over a month since Sept 26 and 27.

Sorry, I should have changed that before. I'm on holiday since late October and wanted to disconnect myself from politics

Iberian Peninsula politics is right now a burning airplane crash.

Someone told me this night Antonio Costa has resigned. Right now I'm in Portugal and will stay here until the weekend. I should visit your beautiful country more often

EDIT: It seems that PSOE and Junts are committed to reach an immediate agreement. In that case investiture could take place next week, providing the unpredictable Puigdemont doesn't want to play his wildcard again. Terrible far-right chants in the anti-PSOE demonstrations at Ferraz HQs, by the way

 

[Battista Minola 1616]

The Puigdemont cult and its consequences etc. (and yes I know it has causes as well as consequences, so I blame those as well, but they caused ERC even more and ERC is acting much more reasonably).

One of the most bizarre things of Catalan politics has been the sudden transformation of ERC, which for 40 years was the hardline, no compromise pro-independence party into the moderate "adults in the room party"

And quite the sudden shift, as recently as October 1st 2017 Rufian was tweeting about Puigdemont selling Catalonia like Judas sold Jesus!

And just like that, within half a day of me posting that Junts found an agreement with the PSOE. Maybe I manifested it.

[Zinneke]

The ex-PP Catalonia leader and co-founder of Vox has been shot in Madrid.

Terrible political climate in Spain right now. Of course the usual goons on twitter are blaming Sanchez but really what needs to happen is a joint statement of all democratic parties calling for a toning down of rhetoric across the boards, and a reform of the way media presents issues. The latter won't happen though because it drives ratings up to see coked up commentators telling lies.

[Oryxslayer]

https://twitter.com/Nassreddin2002/status/1722591899591016618?t=SyaQotgTwQRnEKK1...

I have made my opinion clear for a while now that Sanchez getting forced to a snap election after making a bad deal is worse for him and PSOE than just going to the polls now. Especially with VOX looking truly crazy at the minute. But I'd like to see others thoughts.

[Biden 2024]

Sanchez one of the premier Ball Knowers of our time.

https://twitter.com/Nassreddin2002/status/1722591899591016618?t=SyaQotgTwQRnEKK1...

I have made my opinion clear for a while now that Sanchez getting forced to a snap election after making a bad deal is worse for him and PSOE than just going to the polls now. Especially with VOX looking truly crazy at the minute. But I'd like to see others thoughts.

Trust the plan.

[It's Perro Sanxe wot won it]

With an agreement which sows distrust in the court system of a liberal democracy and explicitly states that the executive and legislative branches of government will investigate the conduct of the judiciary branch, whether this is electorally a bad move for the "good guys" should be the least of one's concerns.

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/Nassreddin2002/status/1722591899591016618?t=SyaQotgTwQRnEKK1...
I have made my opinion clear for a while now that Sanchez getting forced to a snap election after making a bad deal is worse for him and PSOE than just going to the polls now. Especially with VOX looking truly crazy at the minute. But I'd like to see others thoughts.

Yeah, forgive me for Americaposting in the international board but this feels awfully reminiscent of Kevin McCarthy's speakership.

[Velasco]

The ex-PP Catalonia leader and co-founder of Vox has been shot in Madrid.

The man is Alejo Vidal-Quadras and thankfully he survived. Reportedtly Vidal-Quadras has accused the Iranian government, Vidal-Quadras is aged 78 and is retired from politics since he ran unsuccessfully for European Parliament aa the Vox head of list in 2014. In previous years he served a MEP within the PP ranks, as well as he the PP leader in Catalonia (he was removed by Aznar after the deals with CiU in 1996, due to his hard stance against nationalists). He is a Vox founding member and had connections with some obscure Iranian opposition organizations that funded the party in its beginnings.  Just heard in the news the police is investigating following tge Iranian path

https://twitter.com/Nassreddin2002/status/1722591899591016618?t=SyaQotgTwQRnEKK1...

I have made my opinion clear for a while now that Sanchez getting forced to a snap election after making a bad deal is worse for him and PSOE than just going to the polls now. Especially with VOX looking truly crazy at the minute. But I'd like to see others thoughts.

 "We agree to disagree" and "we will continue discussing" are not neccessarily bad starting points, given the large differences existing between PSOE and Junts. Analysts and commentators say that Junts did not extract larger concessions than ERC in the deal. Puigdemont has prolonged the suspense  in order to convey a narrative favorable to his interests, within the context of an endless competition between Junts and ERC for hegemony and the proximity of regional elections in Catalonia. Puigdemont could try to stage a rupture before the next Catalan elections,  but it's possible that he will need Sánchez by then, given that it's likely the future amnesty law will suffer delays in processing due to different legal hurdles. I think this is not neccessarily destined to collapse (Sánchez has managed to survive a number of complicated situations before, that's his trademark), but I wouldn't plunge my hand into the fire for the long-term continuity of a PSOE-Sumar government

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Junts is a right-wing party so I'm sure a de facto Abascal government would be perfectly congenial to Puigdemont on many policy levels as well. We need to stop assuming there is anything inherently progressive about these rich-region separatisms.

To be clear, since I do sometimes say stuff like this and mean it, in this case I was doing a bit.

[Antonio the Sixth]

With an agreement which sows distrust in the court system of a liberal democracy and explicitly states that the executive and legislative branches of government will investigate the conduct of the judiciary branch, whether this is electorally a bad move for the "good guys" should be the least of one's concerns.

Amnesty is a well-accepted means by which liberal democracies attempt to defuse social tensions so sharp they might otherwise tear them apart. Whether doing so is a good idea or not certainly depends on the specifics of a situation (I'm certainly not a fan of Togliatti's amnesty on fascist officials or Mitterrand's amnesty on the Algiers coup leaders, for example) but it doesn't "undermine the judiciary" in and of itself. The judiciary has done its job, but the will of the people is the ultimate sovereign.

[MaxQue]

With an agreement which sows distrust in the court system of a liberal democracy and explicitly states that the executive and legislative branches of government will investigate the conduct of the judiciary branch, whether this is electorally a bad move for the "good guys" should be the least of one's concerns.

The judicial power is independent, but certainly above all and is still accountable to the other powers.

[Velasco]

With an agreement which sows distrust in the court system of a liberal democracy and explicitly states that the executive and legislative branches of government will investigate the conduct of the judiciary branch, whether this is electorally a bad move for the "good guys" should be the least of one's concerns.

Amnesty is a well-accepted means by which liberal democracies attempt to defuse social tensions so sharp they might otherwise tear them apart. Whether doing so is a good idea or not certainly depends on the specifics of a situation (I'm certainly not a fan of Togliatti's amnesty on fascist officials or Mitterrand's amnesty on the Algiers coup leaders, for example) but it doesn't "undermine the judiciary" in and of itself. The judiciary has done its job, but the will of the people is the ultimate sovereign.

Indeed, it's a well established practice among our Western European neighbours. You may be against amnesty on Catalan separatistí leaders, or even argue that Pedro Sánchez is unprincipled and opportunistic, but claiming amnesty delegitimizes the judiciary or marks the end of democracy is both false and hyperbolic.

When Ayuso states that amnesty means that Spain is turning into a dictatorship, or some judges and attorneys claim that it might "break the democracy ", they are creating tension and doing no favours to the democratic system. In what concerns judges and attorneys,  I think it's legitimate to criticize the inclusion of the word "lawfare" in the deal document. However I think the General Council of the Judiciary lacks legitimacy to make statements, since the mandate of its mostly conservative members expired about five years ago.

Amnesty laws are a preorgative of the legislative body. Such legislation usually incorporates a memorandum explaining the reasons that motivate the measure. Some politicians and members of the judiciary are giving opinions before the law has been submitted to Congress and they have read it