Resist The Authoritarian Response To The Coronavirus

[DabbingSanta]

I'm really glad you have posted this. I am very worried what precedent this outbreak sets for future events, like the postponing of elections and closure of all businesses. The hysteria we have seen is simply unprecedented. This disease has a death rate of 3%. It is not a zombie apocalypse, doomsday, or any other end of the world scenario, despite how the government is reacting. Our grandparents lived through many great disease outbreaks, including polio, tuberculosis, and the Spanish flu, and society kept going. I fear that what is happening will cause a great economic depression not seen since the 1930s. Also note that freedom of movement in your home country is a constitutional right (both in Canada and the United States) and you must make sure the government does not try to change that, and if they do, it is pretty much unenforceable anyway. These upcoming days will be tough.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

It is definitely, definitely not going to be constitutional to forcibly close a church.  Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of churches have already gone to virtual services voluntarily.

It is constitutional to make content-neutral time/place/manner regulations of first amendment activity.

You are right it would not be constitutional to simply ban church services.

However, it would be entirely constitutional to regulate the sizes of meetings, for example to ban meetings of greater than 50 people (or 20 or 5 people, or perhaps even of 2 people), as is currently occurring in many jurisdictions. This would include church services, but would not apply specifically to church services. It also does not in any way prevent churches from holding online meetings, and there is no particular intent to prevent religious practice or to single out/target religion for some sort of suppression.

Mind you, it wouldn't necessarily be constitutional to ban meetings with a certain # of people if there were no legitimate government purpose/interest for doing so. But in this case, there is a legitimate public interest - namely public health - for doing so.

On the other hand, suppose that the government wanted to ban all online meetings (including online church services). In this case, I don't think there would even be a rational basis for doing so on the basis of public health, so this would not be constitutional.

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.

I really thought there was no ideology more detestable than libertarianism, but boy, have I been proven wrong.

[Green Line]

Coronavirus: California prepared to enact martial law if its a 'necessity', governor says

California has prepared for worst case scenarios as the coronavirus pandemic heightens, including the possibility of enacting martial law.

Governor Gavin Newsom said during a press conference on Tuesday he would consider implementing martial law if it was necessary to curb the novel virus.

“We have the ability to do martial law ... if we feel the necessity,” he said.

Issuing martial law would be an unprecedented move rarely used by officials in US history. If enacted, it would temporarily replace civil rule with military authority.

The precedent for martial law in the US states “certain civil liberties may be suspended, such as the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, freedom of association, and freedom of movement,” according to a legal journal.

[...]

“If you want to establish a framework of martial law, which is ultimate authority and enforcement, we have the capacity to do that, but we are not feeling at this moment that is a necessity,” Mr Newsom said.

[...]

“So we had a very candid and a sober if not sobering conversation about where we may be and where we need to go together,” Mr Newsom said after the meeting with hospital officials. ”The good news is none of it surprised any of us. We as a state, working with our system, anticipated much of these needs and have been running plans to address them,” he added.

The fact that this is even being discussed is a huge red flag, and it's disheartening to see so-called "liberals" who are willing to go along with it.  You can force businesses to shut down, you can make reasonable restrictions for the sake of the public health, but civil liberties and due process don't stop at pandemics, and each passing day it looks like our response to this virus has been an overreaction.

Considering the big picture, how mild the symptoms of coronavirus are, how likely even a high-risk person is to die of it compared to almost anything else, and how effectively other countries have been able to "flatten the curve" through mostly voluntary measures, I am convinced that Americans by and large should take the attitude that quarantine is a temporary measure and not a long-term one.  If, on the other hand, you are willing to live under martial law during the reign of the most corrupt administration since Nixon, then you're not merely licking the boot - you are deepthroating it.

The last time Americans were this paranoid and complacent, we got the Patriot Act.  Worry about that as much as you worry about this virus.

Scott, did you not get the memo?  Why do you want to kill millions of people?

[Green Line]

Nobody is seriously talking about a 18-month lockdown. That would obviously be unenforceable as well as being, yes, more economically ruinous than our society can reasonably afford.

The virus will probably stay with us for 18 months or longer, but what we're trying to do here is get through the peak of the infection, and do so gradually enough that hospitals aren't overwhelmed. There are many estimates of how long that will take, but to my knowledge it shouldn't be more than a couple months.

However, for it to actually work, we need to go on lockdown right now. This means people need to quit being babies or LARPing as brave rebels, suck it up, and stay home for a few months. It also means the state should provide immediate economic relief to everyone who needs it. If we're actually serious enough to do this thing, we'll be able to go back to our daily lives soon and minimize deaths as much as possible. If not, then whatever happens next is something we'll have brought onto ourselves.

“Stay home for a few months”.

Really, really privileged quote there Anthony.  People CANNOT stay home for a few months.  They will die,  in far far greater numbers than you can ever imagine.  We will have mass starvation and civil unrest.  You may be able to stay home for a few months, and good for you.  By all means do so if you feel it necessary.

It takes a whole new level of intellectual dishonesty to quote a sentence verbatim while ignoring the sentence that came immediately after. You must be very proud of yourself. You sure showed me! Any rational person will obviously see through your little parlor trick, but I'm sure it won't stop your coterie of rebel LARPers to applaud you.

That aside, you're probably right that Americans lack the basic self-discipline to follow the common sense measures needed to avoid making the situation a lot worse. Even Europeans, who are generally more down-to-earth, don't seem to be doing a good job of it. And yes, the lack of economic relief coming from the US government will probably mean that many people will be forced to keep going to work (even when a humane society would be helping them to stay home). This, of course, will all make life worse for everyone in the end. But I guess there's no other way when the country is full of people like you.

Your next sentence doesn’t even nearly cover it, sorry.  The state can’t cover for that kind of economic fallout.  That’s why I didn’t address it, it was nonsensical.  Try harder to think of a way to save the American worker, instead of just talking down to them.  We need to come together.

The state can absolutely cover 2-3 months of wage loss for workers who need it. It's really not rocket science. Worse come to worse, it blows up the deficit. Big deal. You can always make it up by raising taxes after the recovery, or better yet, just print money, since inflation is going to be anemic anyway.

Most small businesses can’t close down for 2-3 months.  There won’t be jobs to come back to when its over.  I think you just see an opportunity to turn this into your socialist playground.  I don’t blame you.  I would do the same if I could.

But I digress, hopefully we won’t have to take these steps.

Guess what, genius, those small businesses can be bailed out exactly the same way workers can. I know you're one of those neoliberal fanatics who has a principled stance against using government money to help people, but most real people don't want to let your bullsh*t ideology get in the way of their livelihoods.

Whats with the attitude Im getting.

Can we at least have elections before the government takes over the whole economy?  Or does that not fit into the plan to seize everything.

Thanks for showing your true colors as an ideologue who'd happily sacrifice other people's lives because something something muh soshulizm. Clearly there's no point in arguing with you anymore since we simply have different moral priorities.

Hopefully you were just drunk last night with all the horrible personal attacks.

So you propose an action that will create a global depression, and then in response to the depression you want to cause, you just say basically say “the government can print more money, who cares, and if you disagree with me you hate workers.”  This is why your idealogy is discredited and can’t win elections in this country.  Laughable.

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

So let me put this out there: we need to have some level of self-quarantine to limit/slow the spread of the virus. But unfortunately, you can't trust everybody to do so. 

At the same civil liberties and freedoms are still important, as is keeping the economy afloat.   

So what's the solution? Is there a middle ground?

[T'Chenka]

So let me put this out there: we need to have some level of self-quarantine to limit/slow the spread of the virus. But unfortunately, you can't trust everybody to do so. 

At the same civil liberties and freedoms are still important, as is keeping the economy afloat.   

So what's the solution? Is there a middle ground?

At the very least, mass gatherings needs to be broken up by police (HAZMAT-police?). Social distancing is obviously more nuanced. The framework I keep falling back on is WW2 England/London. Some civil liberties may need to be TEMPORARILY suspended or at least "loosened". If I was around back then, I wouldn't be ranting about how Winston Churchill was going to keep the curfew after the nazis were defeated.

[dead0man]

This is in NO way comparable to WWII London.

[Mr. Reactionary]

So let me put this out there: we need to have some level of self-quarantine to limit/slow the spread of the virus. But unfortunately, you can't trust everybody to do so. 

At the same civil liberties and freedoms are still important, as is keeping the economy afloat.   

So what's the solution? Is there a middle ground?

At the very least, mass gatherings needs to be broken up by police (HAZMAT-police?).

Should they use clubs, dogs, or firehoses? When Trump suspends the elections for the first time ever u gonna say anyone caught protesting the decision should be arrested for breaking quarantine? After all, public protests could cause a 3% risk of and 80 year old chainsmoker dying. MYRRH DURR!

[T'Chenka]

So let me put this out there: we need to have some level of self-quarantine to limit/slow the spread of the virus. But unfortunately, you can't trust everybody to do so. 

At the same civil liberties and freedoms are still important, as is keeping the economy afloat.   

So what's the solution? Is there a middle ground?

At the very least, mass gatherings needs to be broken up by police (HAZMAT-police?).

Should they use clubs, dogs, or firehoses? When Trump suspends the elections for the first time ever u gonna say anyone caught protesting the decision should be arrested for breaking quarantine? After all, public protests could cause a 3% risk of and 80 year old chainsmoker dying. MYRRH DURR!

You shouldn't trivialize mass death in our communities.

[dead0man]

You shouldn't trivialize mass death in our communities.

WWII levels of mass death!

[T'Chenka]

You shouldn't trivialize mass death in our communities.

WWII levels of mass death!

Exactly.

[dead0man]

You think 75 million people are going to die from this?  That's well above even the highest guesses from paranoid people isn't it?

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

You think 75 million people are going to die from this?  That's well above even the highest guesses from paranoid people isn't it?

I'm certain he means 75,000 UK civilian deaths, which is on the extreme edge of comparable except on a population about one-tenth the size where everyone was an active target.

[Mr. Reactionary]

So let me put this out there: we need to have some level of self-quarantine to limit/slow the spread of the virus. But unfortunately, you can't trust everybody to do so. 

At the same civil liberties and freedoms are still important, as is keeping the economy afloat.   

So what's the solution? Is there a middle ground?

At the very least, mass gatherings needs to be broken up by police (HAZMAT-police?).

Should they use clubs, dogs, or firehoses? When Trump suspends the elections for the first time ever u gonna say anyone caught protesting the decision should be arrested for breaking quarantine? After all, public protests could cause a 3% risk of and 80 year old chainsmoker dying. MYRRH DURR!

You shouldn't trivialize mass death in our communities.

Im not the one claiming that going outside is goddamn murder like you. We have ZERO cases in my town and everyone here is going bonkers from media driven fear. Again its not here but OMG shut down everything, dont go outside, tens of billions of 80 year olds will die if you make eye contact ... gasp are u within 6 feet of me even though you dont have space Ebola? This really seems like a case where the symptoms (fear, economic depression, societal shutdown) are worse than the disease (99% survival rate). Mass death ... more people die of phucking smoking. 99% of people dont have the disease. It does not magically generate if u are outside. The more extreme your hyperbolic rhetoric gets... the angrier we get and the odds of us tuning you out becomes much more likely. If you think you are "stopping murder" by speaking as nutty as you've been, you're actually making it more likely since that will push people away from listening to what you want. If I see one more post from you invoking murder you will also go on ignore. If wed listened to people like u after 9/11 every building would have a metal detector at each door and every muslim would be on a list.

[T'Chenka]

You think 75 million people are going to die from this?  That's well above even the highest guesses from paranoid people isn't it?

I didn't realize worldwide WW2 death was so high. I think between 25% to 50% of that number will die, but obviously I hope not.

[T'Chenka]

We have ZERO cases in my town

- you can't possibly know that based on USA testing levels

- thst's likely not true, and if it is, that likely will change soon

- this doesn't mean you shouldn't be staying home a lot and social distancing

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

Please PLEASE wear a tri-corner hat and period clothing, Sprouts

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

Please PLEASE wear a tri-corner hat and period clothing, Sprouts

I am nothing if not fashionable!

[Mr. Reactionary]

We have ZERO cases in my town

- you can't possibly know that based on USA testing levels

- thst's likely not true, and if it is, that likely will change soon

- this doesn't mean you shouldn't be staying home a lot and social distancing

I work for the government in a critical position! Im not going to phucking sit and home and neglect the public im supposed to serve because of media driven panic! You really expect me to poke someone with a yard stick any time I have to help with a customer at the counter or hand someone a piece of paper? You are demanding that we shut down over suspicion. Medical Mccarthyism is insane. Whats next, mandatory thermometer readings before someone can enter a bathroom. News is reporting mob violence against suspected infected people. This is NOT an OK way to react to a disease that does not kill 99% of infecteds and has not infected 99% of people. This is going to go down as one of the biggest mass panic overreactions in modern times.

[lfromnj]

It's cute that you think everybody that disagrees with you is a libertarian.

The funny part is that, Sprout,green line , and Lech could all actually be considered to some degree communitarians, they just recognize the risk of shutting down everything to the whole community.

[Fight for Trump]

It's cute that you think everybody that disagrees with you is a libertarian.

The funny part is that, Sprout,green line , and Lech could all actually be considered to some degree communitarians, they just recognize the risk of shutting down everything to the whole community.

I am a libertarian and I believe in shutting everything down.

[It’s so Joever]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

On ignore you go.

[Lechasseur]

It's cute that you think everybody that disagrees with you is a libertarian.

The funny part is that, Sprout,green line , and Lech could all actually be considered to some degree communitarians, they just recognize the risk of shutting down everything to the whole community.

Exactly

As Mr R said, the consequences of the lockdowns will be far worse than the disease itself

[T'Chenka]

We have ZERO cases in my town

- you can't possibly know that based on USA testing levels

- thst's likely not true, and if it is, that likely will change soon

- this doesn't mean you shouldn't be staying home a lot and social distancing

I work for the government in a critical position! Im not going to phucking sit and home and neglect the public im supposed to serve because of media driven panic! You really expect me to poke someone with a yard stick any time I have to help with a customer at the counter or hand someone a piece of paper? You are demanding that we shut down over suspicion. Medical Mccarthyism is insane. Whats next, mandatory thermometer readings before someone can enter a bathroom. News is reporting mob violence against suspected infected people. This is NOT an OK way to react to a disease that does not kill 99% of infecteds and has not infected 99% of people. This is going to go down as one of the biggest mass panic overreactions in modern times.

Obviously you are an "essential worker" (ike myself) so I would not and have not recommend you not go to work.