Resist The Authoritarian Response To The Coronavirus

[T'Chenka]

The current measures are not "just" to save the elderly (who deserve saving regardless of your opinion) or "just" the immunocompromised. It's to save people of all age groups and health levels. Without locking things down, hospitals will be overwhelmed and doctors will have to decide who counts as important enough to save. Women having babies may have to stay at home. Young, healthy people can and do die from this, and we need to keep the flow to the healthcare system as even and steady as possible so we don't cycle into deaths that could easily be prevented.

Yep.

Just to throw out some examples, young people who get an appendicitis attack, alcohol poisoning, overdose on drugs or get into car accidents will all die if the hospitals are too busy dealing with coronavirus to treat them and save them.

[SteveRogers]

While I certainly don’t agree with the hysterical attitudes of some in this thread, I do think that it’s fair to question the legality of some of the “orders” now being issued by state officials. While I believe it is currently in the best interest of public safety for everyone to voluntarily follow the recommendations of medical professionals to the best of their abilities, when those requests become demands then the government has a duty to be transparent about where its purported authority is coming from. The shelter-in-place order currently in effect in the Bay area appears to be on dubious legal ground at best. What happens if someone violates the order? Do they get arrested? Is there a crime on the books that they can actually be charged with? Anyone who tells you they know the answer to those questions is lying. This is uncharted territory. What if, hypothetically, something happens in the next month that requires protesting in groups of 50 or more? The potential legal ambiguity is a recipe for civil unrest that would make the current situation worse. If these measures need to become mandatory, then they need to be enacted through the proper democratic channels and NOT through individual officials inventing powers they don’t actually have.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Lot of people in this thread refusing to engage with the argument and shouting down dissent, even calling those of us who rightly worry about the massive opportunity the coronavirus pandemic creates for more authoritarian measures around the world “not caring if people die.” Amazing.

[T'Chenka]

Lot of people in this thread refusing to engage with the argument and shouting down dissent, even calling those of us who rightly worry about the massive opportunity the coronavirus pandemic creates for more authoritarian measures around the world “not caring if people die.” Amazing.

Do you disagree with the authoritarian measures that the UK took to survive World War 2 and night bombings of London?

In very special emergency circumstances, it is normal to temporarily suspend certain rights. This is not the first time this has happened snd it won't be the last. If Trump tries AND succeeds (both unlikely) to manipulate this to become dictator, the people will rise up, hopefully with the help of the military and close allies like UK Germany France Canada Australia etc.  You can cross that bridge if you ever get to it, which is a big maybe honestly. First you need to focus on turning an emergency into a non-emsegency so many thousands do not die.

[Devout Centrist]

I think it's important to note that China's response to this crisis was a total and complete failure.

They deliberately covered up evidence of a new and highly dangerous disease from the eyes of the rest of the world, bullying and silencing anyone who questioned Beijing's narrative. They ignored the warning signs for weeks, they failed to adequately prepare, and they pressured the WHO into accepting their side of the story.

This is the authoritarian response to a pandemic. It results in maximum misery, disinformation, and death.

The blood will be on the hands of the CCP for this catastrophe. Our own administrators should not seek to mirror the way China dealt with this crisis, although I fear some already have emulated their response.

That being said, this is an extraordinary situation. This is no time to chill at a bar or restaurant. You will endanger yourself, you will endanger others, and you will make this crisis worse.

[GMantis]

I think it's important to note that China's response to this crisis was a total and complete failure.

This is to put it mildly, ridiculous. Their initial response was disastrous but once they took up the necessary measures, they have managed to curtail the infection. If you want to see total and complete failure, see Italy. Or much of Europe for that matter

This is the authoritarian response to a pandemic. It results in maximum misery, disinformation, and death.

The authoritarian response - total lockdown; tracking down and containment of all persons in contact with the infected - is the only one that works. The reason this pandemic happened is that it was not implemented soon enough.

The blood will be on the hands of the CCP for this catastrophe. Our own administrators should not seek to mirror the way China dealt with this crisis, although I fear some already have emulated their response.

This is the stark face of ideological purity -  ignore the only method that works, because the ideological enemy has used it. But of course you're free to emulate the European response, with its attendant infection rates.

That being said, this is an extraordinary situation. This is no time to chill at a bar or restaurant. You will endanger yourself, you will endanger others, and you will make this crisis worse.

So why are you then opposed to measures which would prevent this danger? Not all people are responsible, this is why there are laws to keep them in line. And extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary measures.

[Dukakisite1988]

Having Coronavirus is possibly preferable to seeing the West emulate the methods of the Chinese state (in both the general sense and on this particular issue). And I don't care what 'ideology' China has.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Lot of people in this thread refusing to engage with the argument and shouting down dissent, even calling those of us who rightly worry about the massive opportunity the coronavirus pandemic creates for more authoritarian measures around the world “not caring if people die.” Amazing.

Muh u wants dead granny! Eleventy billion will die if we dont shut down society for 6 months. Kung Flu spontaneously generates whenever 2 or more are gathered so all going in public should be criminalized as its the same as anthrax.

Seriously... yall people are nuts. .0009% of the american population has an illness with a 99% survival rate. Chicken Littles are crashing the economy over a bad flu and a poisonous media. If we are going to shut everything down for every risk, why even bother. This is the same mentality that says that even though only .00009% of privately owned guns were used in mass shootings in America in 2018, we should ban the other 99.99991% of guns that weren't. By this logic we should ban all x rays based off the minutia of background radiation it generates that probably even leads to a .005% increase in cancer risks for nearby residents.

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

Lot of people in this thread refusing to engage with the argument and shouting down dissent, even calling those of us who rightly worry about the massive opportunity the coronavirus pandemic creates for more authoritarian measures around the world “not caring if people die.” Amazing.

Muh u wants dead granny! Eleventy billion will die if we dont shut down society for 6 months. Kung Flu spontaneously generates whenever 2 or more are gathered so all going in public should be criminalized as its the same as anthrax.

Seriously... yall people are nuts. .0009% of the american population has an illness with a 99% survival rate. Chicken Littles are crashing the economy over a bad flu and a poisonous media. If we are going to shut everything down for every risk, why even bother. This is the same mentality that says that even though only .00009% of privately owned guns were used in mass shootings in America in 2018, we should ban the other 99.99991% of guns that weren't. By this logic we should ban all x rays based off the minutia of background radiation it generates that probably even leads to a .005% increase in cancer risks for nearby residents.

Hopefully you're at least taking basic preventative measires for yourself, Mr. Reactionary. 

[dead0man]

Minds are made up, evidence doesn't matter. Literally dying rather than just admitting the Chinese may have done something right after all.

eventually, after dragging their feet and throwing people in jail who tried to get the word out.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.

What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.

There are multiple things going on here.  We just had a primary election illegally cancelled tonight because of virus concerns.  Whatever the motives were, bad actors (Trump or other) can jump on the mass hysteria and use these kinds of precendents for their own gain.  You'd better hope to God there's not some kind of natural disaster/pandemic in November.  Trump may try to postpone or cancel the election.  And what will you say, thats fine?

Second, the "doctors, scientists and health specialists" he referenced calling for total lockdowns of the country are not concerned about our civil liberties.  They are also not concerned about the economic fallout.  They are singularly focused stopping the virus.  I'll ask it again.  What's an acceptable amount of time to shelter in place.  What if they say we need to do it for 6 months?  12 months? 18 months? We have posters on here and people in the media implying just that, and how dare anyone question it.  At some point, you don't just go, "BUT THE DOCTORS SAID WE HAD TO DO IT".  This is why our public officials need to balance multiple interests.  They don't just blindly follow one piece of advice.

Pelosi and the Supreme Court will not allow Trump to cancel the election. Delay the election slightly? If the circumstances actually call for that and Pelosi and Supreme Court agree, then sure why not.

We will lockdown for 18 months if necessary, and as soon as we realize that tjat is the reality, we'll have people coming up with new strategies to help the economy and social lives improve. Skype may become WAY more popular. Some sportd MAY start up again like MMA with empty crowds but broadcast to TV watchers. Online casinos will get more popular. Some new animated movies might get green-lit where voice actors and animators can self-isolate while they make the movie, and they can go straight to VOD or Netflix. We'll find a way.

No we will not be locking down for 18 months and anyone that thinks the vast majority of Americans can handle that is insane.

We'll just have to see how Americans feel when the hospitals and funeral homes totally exceed capacity and the corpses start rotting in piles in your local communities.

Largely won't care even a little bit. Preferable to any sort of extended lockdown longer than 48 hours or so. I would abandon city living once and for all if this became the alternative.

[dead0man]

like with global warming, the strongest fear mongerers can't lose.  If it blows over without getting crazy bad they can say "see, we worried, we changed our ways and it didn't get crazy bad".  If it does get crazy bad they can say, "see, you should have listened to us!".


I'm NOT saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's a real easy position to take because you'll never have to defend it properly no matter what happens.

[Farmlands]

I'm guessing this a result of a strong lack of faith in government, since I've seen few Europeans worry about temporary measures leading to the permanent suspension of democracy, same with gun control policies. Anyway, I'm hanging out at the international Covid thread, things are much less alarmist and more factual over there at least.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Lot of people in this thread refusing to engage with the argument and shouting down dissent, even calling those of us who rightly worry about the massive opportunity the coronavirus pandemic creates for more authoritarian measures around the world “not caring if people die.” Amazing.

Muh u wants dead granny! Eleventy billion will die if we dont shut down society for 6 months. Kung Flu spontaneously generates whenever 2 or more are gathered so all going in public should be criminalized as its the same as anthrax.

Seriously... yall people are nuts. .0009% of the american population has an illness with a 99% survival rate. Chicken Littles are crashing the economy over a bad flu and a poisonous media. If we are going to shut everything down for every risk, why even bother. This is the same mentality that says that even though only .00009% of privately owned guns were used in mass shootings in America in 2018, we should ban the other 99.99991% of guns that weren't. By this logic we should ban all x rays based off the minutia of background radiation it generates that probably even leads to a .005% increase in cancer risks for nearby residents.

Hopefully you're at least taking basic preventative measires for yourself, Mr. Reactionary. 

I take daily multivitamins, wash my hands, and dont lick doorknobs normally anyway. I haven't left the State since November and haven't traveled more than an hr drive from town since 2019. We have no cases here and yet the stores have been stripped bare. I work for the Government and we cant flipping shut down services over a cough. Yet all meetings are cancelled, court is now cancelled, city travel is halted, all because fearful people not actual risks. Now Northam is talking about shutting down church services.  This is insane.

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

Lot of people in this thread refusing to engage with the argument and shouting down dissent, even calling those of us who rightly worry about the massive opportunity the coronavirus pandemic creates for more authoritarian measures around the world “not caring if people die.” Amazing.

Muh u wants dead granny! Eleventy billion will die if we dont shut down society for 6 months. Kung Flu spontaneously generates whenever 2 or more are gathered so all going in public should be criminalized as its the same as anthrax.

Seriously... yall people are nuts. .0009% of the american population has an illness with a 99% survival rate. Chicken Littles are crashing the economy over a bad flu and a poisonous media. If we are going to shut everything down for every risk, why even bother. This is the same mentality that says that even though only .00009% of privately owned guns were used in mass shootings in America in 2018, we should ban the other 99.99991% of guns that weren't. By this logic we should ban all x rays based off the minutia of background radiation it generates that probably even leads to a .005% increase in cancer risks for nearby residents.

Hopefully you're at least taking basic preventative measires for yourself, Mr. Reactionary. 

I take daily multivitamins, wash my hands, and dont lick doorknobs normally anyway. I haven't left the State since November and haven't traveled more than an hr drive from town since 2019. We have no cases here and yet the stores have been stripped bare. I work for the Government and we cant flipping shut down services over a cough. Yet all meetings are cancelled, court is now cancelled, city travel is halted, all because fearful people not actual risks. Now Northam is talking about shutting down church services.  This is insane.

Insane as in we shouldn't be shutting anything down? Or as in too many places are being shut down?

[Lechasseur]

Why would we be locked down for 18 months?

https://mobile.twitter.com/kakape/status/1239709269370511366

A lockdown for 2 or 3 months is one thing, but 18 months is insane. That's losing 2 years of your life along with the whole economy getting destroyed.

I'd rather take my chances and not have a lockdown at that point. And I think most people would agree with me on that.

If it kills me, it kills me. But I'm not going to be imprisoned in my apartment without seeing anyone for 18 months. That isn't a life worth living imo.

[Former President tack50]

I'm guessing this a result of a strong lack of faith in government, since I've seen few Europeans worry about temporary measures leading to the permanent suspension of democracy, same with gun control policies. Anyway, I'm hanging out at the international Covid thread, things are much less alarmist and more factual over there at least.

To be honest, one of my big worries is if somehow the restrictions become permanent; or even if they don't if the psychological impact leads to permanent changes on society (which honestly might be a very realistic scenario, I guess we are never quite going back to what we used to).

I do partially agree and partially disagree on the "trust on government" argument. I definitely don't think people here trust the government at all. However the lack on trust in government compared to the American lack of trust is more centered on the politicians themselves, rather than coming from a more principled "anti-government" position.

The measures at least in Spain also seem to be to lean more on the "legal" side of things. The state of alarm is perfectly constiutitonal; developed in legislation (Bill 4/1981) and there is even a precedent from 10 years ago even if it's a very different one. It includes congressional oversight (can be imposed unilaterally by the PM, but needs congressional authorization to last more than 15 days)

The earlier local measures are more iffy in terms of their legality but most tend to be seen as perfectly legal as well and there has been a great degree of coordination I would say.

[Lechasseur]

I'm guessing this a result of a strong lack of faith in government, since I've seen few Europeans worry about temporary measures leading to the permanent suspension of democracy, same with gun control policies. Anyway, I'm hanging out at the international Covid thread, things are much less alarmist and more factual over there at least.

To be honest, one of my big worries is if somehow the restrictions become permanent; or even if they don't if the psychological impact leads to permanent changes on society (which honestly might be a very realistic scenario, I guess we are never quite going back to what we used to).

I do partially agree and partially disagree on the "trust on government" argument. I definitely don't think people here trust the government at all. However the lack on trust in government compared to the American lack of trust is more centered on the politicians themselves, rather than coming from a more principled "anti-government" position.

The measures at least in Spain also seem to be to lean more on the "legal" side of things. The state of alarm is perfectly constiutitonal; developed in legislation (Bill 4/1981) and there is even a precedent from 10 years ago even if it's a very different one. It includes congressional oversight (can be imposed unilaterally by the PM, but needs congressional authorization to last more than 15 days)

The earlier local measures are more iffy in terms of their legality but most tend to be seen as perfectly legal as well and there has been a great degree of coordination I would say.

I don't see how you can permanently keep the country on lockdown

On the other hand society will change for sure. No one who's lived through this will ever be the same again. No question about it.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Lot of people in this thread refusing to engage with the argument and shouting down dissent, even calling those of us who rightly worry about the massive opportunity the coronavirus pandemic creates for more authoritarian measures around the world “not caring if people die.” Amazing.

Muh u wants dead granny! Eleventy billion will die if we dont shut down society for 6 months. Kung Flu spontaneously generates whenever 2 or more are gathered so all going in public should be criminalized as its the same as anthrax.

Seriously... yall people are nuts. .0009% of the american population has an illness with a 99% survival rate. Chicken Littles are crashing the economy over a bad flu and a poisonous media. If we are going to shut everything down for every risk, why even bother. This is the same mentality that says that even though only .00009% of privately owned guns were used in mass shootings in America in 2018, we should ban the other 99.99991% of guns that weren't. By this logic we should ban all x rays based off the minutia of background radiation it generates that probably even leads to a .005% increase in cancer risks for nearby residents.

Hopefully you're at least taking basic preventative measires for yourself, Mr. Reactionary. 

I take daily multivitamins, wash my hands, and dont lick doorknobs normally anyway. I haven't left the State since November and haven't traveled more than an hr drive from town since 2019. We have no cases here and yet the stores have been stripped bare. I work for the Government and we cant flipping shut down services over a cough. Yet all meetings are cancelled, court is now cancelled, city travel is halted, all because fearful people not actual risks. Now Northam is talking about shutting down church services.  This is insane.

Insane as in we shouldn't be shutting anything down? Or as in too many places are being shut down?

 it should be contextual. Cases is new york city shouldn't mean every school and restaurant in every county in Virginia shuts down.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I'm guessing this a result of a strong lack of faith in government, since I've seen few Europeans worry about temporary measures leading to the permanent suspension of democracy, same with gun control policies. Anyway, I'm hanging out at the international Covid thread, things are much less alarmist and more factual over there at least.

Is it a specifically European thing to smugly pat yourself on the back for not being like those Ugly Americans with their ideological stubbornness, or is it just a case-by-case basis?

You’d think that Europeans would be more worried about antidemocratic trends and opportunities for state repression, considering much of the past (spectacularly so in certain decades of the last century) and trends in certain countries in the present.

[parochial boy]

I'm guessing this a result of a strong lack of faith in government, since I've seen few Europeans worry about temporary measures leading to the permanent suspension of democracy, same with gun control policies. Anyway, I'm hanging out at the international Covid thread, things are much less alarmist and more factual over there at least.

Is it a specifically European thing to smugly pat yourself on the back for not being like those Ugly Americans ...?

Well, obviously, yes.

You’d think that Europeans would be more worried about antidemocratic trends and opportunities for state repression, considering much of the past (spectacularly so in certain decades of the last century) and trends in certain countries in the present.

But lots of European countries also have, at least as part of their national mythologies, experiences of real backs-to-the-wall emergencies. In a number of cases instances where authoritarian measures were implemented to address these, and then removed afterwards without doing any medium or long term damage to the quality of democracy or civil liberties.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I'm guessing this a result of a strong lack of faith in government, since I've seen few Europeans worry about temporary measures leading to the permanent suspension of democracy, same with gun control policies. Anyway, I'm hanging out at the international Covid thread, things are much less alarmist and more factual over there at least.

Is it a specifically European thing to smugly pat yourself on the back for not being like those Ugly Americans ...?

Well, obviously, yes.

You’d think that Europeans would be more worried about antidemocratic trends and opportunities for state repression, considering much of the past (spectacularly so in certain decades of the last century) and trends in certain countries in the present.

But lots of European countries also have, at least as part of their national mythologies, experiences of real backs-to-the-wall emergencies. In a number of cases instances where authoritarian measures were implemented to address these, and then removed afterwards without doing any medium or long term damage to the quality of democracy or civil liberties.

I guess a big part of the difference I perceive is that America does not have a flexible political system, by design, and we are both obsessed with precedent but also wary of state power, with important (and dangerous) caveats:

The most trusted public institutions in the US today are the military and law enforcement.

The Commander-in-Chief of the US Armed Forces is Donald Trump, and the guy in charge of federal law enforcement is William Barr. The former is a dictator by temperament and the latter is as maximalist on presidential power as Dick Cheney, if not more so. There is no simple remedy for any of this in our conservative, norms-reliant common-law system, and the effects on our political culture and society will be incalculable. Can you understand where I’m coming from here?

[It’s so Joever]

These are the types of enlightened individuals who would claim “FDR is a fascist” or “Lincoln is destroying our Democracy”.
This is a war, full stop.
Certain liberties need to be suspended.

[lfromnj]

Oh yes the temporary measures just like the T in TSA stands for temporary
or the PATRIOT Act .

Stop using the arguments everything is temporary, its very important to keep an eye out for government trying to snatch power.

[All Along The Watchtower]

These are the types of enlightened individuals who would claim “FDR is a fascist” or “Lincoln is destroying our Democracy”.
This is a war, full stop.
Certain liberties need to be suspended.

Settle down there, General Patton.