Israeli General Election (2nd of March, 2020): Madness

[jaymichaud]

Well, seventy-two years of democracy is a good run. Better than most countries founded in the twentieth century have managed. Here's hoping Arabs, gay people, less-religious Jews, kibbutzniks, etc. still find ways to survive and thrive in the coming Chardalized ethnarchy.

Is... it really this bad?

Nah. However the Bibi bloc want to destroy democracy in different ways. Likud want to do it Hungary/Poland style. Yamina want to do it Egypt style. The Haredim want to do it Saudi Arabia/Iran style.

[Walmart_shopper]

Well, seventy-two years of democracy is a good run. Better than most countries founded in the twentieth century have managed. Here's hoping Arabs, gay people, less-religious Jews, kibbutzniks, etc. still find ways to survive and thrive in the coming Chardalized ethnarchy.

Is... it really this bad?

Yep.

[Pericles]

Really hope Gantz can pull it off and form a minority government. Seems like it is about a 50-50 chance right now, is that right? And he definitely should imo, being in power is better than being in opposition and incumbency is a big boost. Plus Netanyahu has to go and be held accountable.

[Walmart_shopper]

So, if I have got this right, Gantz won't try for a minority government because far right tokens Handel and Hauser would oppose it, but it's no problem if half of KL breaks away from the party in opposition to a Netanyahu-led unity government? Hauser and Handel get to run the country but Lapid and Yaalon get to tweet? And it's absolutely forbidden to sit in a government supported by Arabs because Gantz said he wouldn't, but it's fine to sit in a Netanyahu-led government even though the whole point of the last year of KL campaigning is that Netanyahu was unfit to be PM? And Netanyahu is a an apocalyptic threat to democracy and also worthy of Gantz's support to be PM?

It's easy to be hyperbolic these days, but it's probably no exaggeration to suggest that the Jewish State is one of the most spectacular failures of modern political history. But as someone who always felt that the Zionist narrative of a state sustained by the incompatible dichotomy of being Jewish and democratic I can't say I'm surprised or even heartbroken.

[America Needs R'hllor]

So, if I have got this right, Gantz won't try for a minority government because far right tokens Handel and Hauser would oppose it, but it's no problem if half of KL breaks away from the party in opposition to a Netanyahu-led unity government? Hauser and Handel get to run the country but Lapid and Yaalon get to tweet? And it's absolutely forbidden to sit in a government supported by Arabs because Gantz said he wouldn't, but it's fine to sit in a Netanyahu-led government even though the whole point of the last year of KL campaigning is that Netanyahu was unfit to be PM? And Netanyahu is a an apocalyptic threat to democracy and also worthy of Gantz's support to be PM?

It's easy to be hyperbolic these days, but it's probably no exaggeration to suggest that the Jewish State is one of the most spectacular failures of modern political history. But as someone who always felt that the Zionist narrative of a state sustained by the incompatible dichotomy of being Jewish and democratic I can't say I'm surprised or even heartbroken.

Did anything change since yesterday?

[Walmart_shopper]

So, if I have got this right, Gantz won't try for a minority government because far right tokens Handel and Hauser would oppose it, but it's no problem if half of KL breaks away from the party in opposition to a Netanyahu-led unity government? Hauser and Handel get to run the country but Lapid and Yaalon get to tweet? And it's absolutely forbidden to sit in a government supported by Arabs because Gantz said he wouldn't, but it's fine to sit in a Netanyahu-led government even though the whole point of the last year of KL campaigning is that Netanyahu was unfit to be PM? And Netanyahu is a an apocalyptic threat to democracy and also worthy of Gantz's support to be PM?

It's easy to be hyperbolic these days, but it's probably no exaggeration to suggest that the Jewish State is one of the most spectacular failures of modern political history. But as someone who always felt that the Zionist narrative of a state sustained by the incompatible dichotomy of being Jewish and democratic I can't say I'm surprised or even heartbroken.

Did anything change since yesterday?

As of now everything is sorted except for the PM rotation. Lapid and Yaalon will stay out, but Gantz will bring Hosen and Hauser/Handel into the government with him. Ashkenazi will get defense and an agreed upon third party will get justice. KL wants Bibi out in less than a year but Bibi refuses and wants the first two years. Yesh Atid is trying hard to pressure Gantz to stay out and even stop all negotiations in light of Edelstein breaking Israeli "democracy." So we'll see.

[The Mikado]

Blue and White jettisoning Yesh Atid and joining a Likud-led coalition would be...something truly dreadful.

It would still lead to the amusing prospect of the Joint List becoming the official opposition.

So this grand coalition would be the 36 members of Likud, the 20 members of Blue and White minus Yesh Atid, and...

[RogueBeaver]

https://twitter.com/Gil_Hoffman/status/1240672465719885826

[jaichind]

So it seems Netanyahu wins again ...

[Velasco]

The Joint List as standard bearer of Israeli democracy. It'd be ironic and quite telling as well

I hope Ayman Odeh plays well his cards and reveals political stature. As well it'd be good the Palestinian side wakes up and puts remedy to that hopeless disunity. It'd be good this battered people gets for once a leadership on the level of the historical moment. The Ogre is at the gates

[America Needs R'hllor]

https://twitter.com/Gil_Hoffman/status/1240672465719885826

This is a report from Amit Segal, the Court Journalist, so take it with a grain of salt. But if true, Israeli democracy is done.

[Walmart_shopper]

KL is officially calling Segal's report "spin." But, to be fair, virtually everything Segal says these days is a masterclass in sycophantic spin. So it isn't a denial, per se, to say that Segal is spinning faster than Golda is spinning in her grave.

[jaymichaud]

I see ToI posted an article then deleted it.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Gantz just tweeted: the talks with the Likud negotiation team has been stopped this evening, there were no negotiations today and no agreements, what we're seeing is cynical spins, Likud will get a functional Knesset next week.

Good, but not good enough. Everything should be devoted to swearing in a minority government.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Israel right now:
The legislative branch is shut down, a speaker without a majority locking it to protect the ruling party's power.
The Leader's trial is postponed, showing the control of the Ruling Party over the judicial branch.
With no parliamentary oversight, the Ruling Party issues emergency orders that allow them to monitor citizens and prevent opposition protests. Only the Supreme Court prevents them from doing so without oversight, the last functioning democratic institution, but the Ruling Party strives to weaken it.
Every evening in prime time, the Leader gives a politicial speech to the nation.
All of this with the cover of a crisis that grants legitimacy to the Leader's actions.

[Continential]

The Title should be changed to, Fear, Loathing and No Government in Israel

[America Needs R'hllor]

Err so, Walla! published an interview with Mansur Abbas, the leader of the Islamic party Ra'am, currently the second biggest party in the Joint List. He had these answers:
On LGBTQ issues: we come from the Islamic conservative position, we're a religious movement.
On conversion therapy: I think the government needs to provide the "help", including to minors, in a non-violent way.
On pride parades: we oppose them.
On whether he'd agree to call the public to avoid violence if there was a pride parade in a major Arabic city: No. (threatened to stop the interview at this point)

It's not surprising at all but people on the left need to remember that the Joint List has these elements too, they should be considered a legitimate partner but not romanticized too much.. Abbas is considered a moderate, by the way.

[Walmart_shopper]

Err so, Walla! published an interview with Mansur Abbas, the leader of the Islamic party Ra'am, currently the second biggest party in the Joint List. He had these answers:
On LGBTQ issues: we come from the Islamic conservative position, we're a religious movement.
On conversion therapy: I think the government needs to provide the "help", including to minors, in a non-violent way.
On pride parades: we oppose them.
On whether he'd agree to call the public to avoid violence if there was a pride parade in a major Arabic city: No. (threatened to stop the interview at this point)

It's not surprising at all but people on the left need to remember that the Joint List has these elements too, they should be considered a legitimate partner but not romanticized too much.. Abbas is considered a moderate, by the way.

I don't think that anyone would be surprised to hear than an Islamic political party holds fairly generic Islamic positions on hot button political issues. The Joint List is predicated on a belief in equality, democracy, and a shared Jewish-Arab future. That's it, and amazingly that makes the Joint List "leftist" in Israeli discourse. Unlike the Tel Aviv-centered Jewish liberal parties, the Joint List cannot afford to get bogged down on controversial issues. Frankly, Arabs are in an existential fight in this country and can't afford boutique fixations on conversion therapy bans or whatever. The predominant Jewish discourse between homophobic rabbis and gay liberals is a luxury that people facing profound barriers to integration and success in the country cannot have. Many Joint List voters do not support pride parades, but the point is that we should be so lucky that the biggest problem in our community was a pride parade controversy and not, say, a prime minister who wants to expatriate Arabs to preserve Jewish racial hegemony.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Err so, Walla! published an interview with Mansur Abbas, the leader of the Islamic party Ra'am, currently the second biggest party in the Joint List. He had these answers:
On LGBTQ issues: we come from the Islamic conservative position, we're a religious movement.
On conversion therapy: I think the government needs to provide the "help", including to minors, in a non-violent way.
On pride parades: we oppose them.
On whether he'd agree to call the public to avoid violence if there was a pride parade in a major Arabic city: No. (threatened to stop the interview at this point)

It's not surprising at all but people on the left need to remember that the Joint List has these elements too, they should be considered a legitimate partner but not romanticized too much.. Abbas is considered a moderate, by the way.

I don't think that anyone would be surprised to hear than an Islamic political party holds fairly generic Islamic positions on hot button political issues. The Joint List is predicated on a belief in equality, democracy, and a shared Jewish-Arab future. That's it, and amazingly that makes the Joint List "leftist" in Israeli discourse. Unlike the Tel Aviv-centered Jewish liberal parties, the Joint List cannot afford to get bogged down on controversial issues. Frankly, Arabs are in an existential fight in this country and can't afford boutique fixations on conversion therapy bans or whatever. The predominant Jewish discourse between homophobic rabbis and gay liberals is a luxury that people facing profound barriers to integration and success in the country cannot have. Many Joint List voters do not support pride parades, but the point is that we should be so lucky that the biggest problem in our community was a pride parade controversy and not, say, a prime minister who wants to expatriate Arabs to preserve Jewish racial hegemony.

I see your point and I largely agree with it, but I don't think that it's much of a "luxury" for LGBTQ Arabic youth. For example, the young teen who was stabbed by his brother near Beit Dror. I just think that as a community, LGBTQs need to think twice before voting for Ra'am (and by thinking twice I mean taking this factor, among others, in mind).

[jaymichaud]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-march-21-2020/

More gaslighting.

[jaymichaud]

Err so, Walla! published an interview with Mansur Abbas, the leader of the Islamic party Ra'am, currently the second biggest party in the Joint List. He had these answers:
On LGBTQ issues: we come from the Islamic conservative position, we're a religious movement.
On conversion therapy: I think the government needs to provide the "help", including to minors, in a non-violent way.
On pride parades: we oppose them.
On whether he'd agree to call the public to avoid violence if there was a pride parade in a major Arabic city: No. (threatened to stop the interview at this point)

It's not surprising at all but people on the left need to remember that the Joint List has these elements too, they should be considered a legitimate partner but not romanticized too much.. Abbas is considered a moderate, by the way.

I don't think that anyone would be surprised to hear than an Islamic political party holds fairly generic Islamic positions on hot button political issues. The Joint List is predicated on a belief in equality, democracy, and a shared Jewish-Arab future. That's it, and amazingly that makes the Joint List "leftist" in Israeli discourse. Unlike the Tel Aviv-centered Jewish liberal parties, the Joint List cannot afford to get bogged down on controversial issues. Frankly, Arabs are in an existential fight in this country and can't afford boutique fixations on conversion therapy bans or whatever. The predominant Jewish discourse between homophobic rabbis and gay liberals is a luxury that people facing profound barriers to integration and success in the country cannot have. Many Joint List voters do not support pride parades, but the point is that we should be so lucky that the biggest problem in our community was a pride parade controversy and not, say, a prime minister who wants to expatriate Arabs to preserve Jewish racial hegemony.

I mean that's not really an excuse given Hadash has a similar agenda and they've supported gay rights for years.

[Walmart_shopper]

Err so, Walla! published an interview with Mansur Abbas, the leader of the Islamic party Ra'am, currently the second biggest party in the Joint List. He had these answers:
On LGBTQ issues: we come from the Islamic conservative position, we're a religious movement.
On conversion therapy: I think the government needs to provide the "help", including to minors, in a non-violent way.
On pride parades: we oppose them.
On whether he'd agree to call the public to avoid violence if there was a pride parade in a major Arabic city: No. (threatened to stop the interview at this point)

It's not surprising at all but people on the left need to remember that the Joint List has these elements too, they should be considered a legitimate partner but not romanticized too much.. Abbas is considered a moderate, by the way.

I don't think that anyone would be surprised to hear than an Islamic political party holds fairly generic Islamic positions on hot button political issues. The Joint List is predicated on a belief in equality, democracy, and a shared Jewish-Arab future. That's it, and amazingly that makes the Joint List "leftist" in Israeli discourse. Unlike the Tel Aviv-centered Jewish liberal parties, the Joint List cannot afford to get bogged down on controversial issues. Frankly, Arabs are in an existential fight in this country and can't afford boutique fixations on conversion therapy bans or whatever. The predominant Jewish discourse between homophobic rabbis and gay liberals is a luxury that people facing profound barriers to integration and success in the country cannot have. Many Joint List voters do not support pride parades, but the point is that we should be so lucky that the biggest problem in our community was a pride parade controversy and not, say, a prime minister who wants to expatriate Arabs to preserve Jewish racial hegemony.

I mean that's not really an excuse given Hadash has a similar agenda and they've supported gay rights for years.

I am talking about the Joint List, and not Hadash. The point of the Joint List is to maximize political strength by aggregating very different parties. That requires minimizing boutique sexual politics to maximize political power to build a collaborative and democratic future. It's saying that democracy is more important than banning gay conversion therapy. If someone thinks that banning gay conversion therapy is more important then it's clear that is and never could be a JL voter.

My point is that JL never pretended to be the party of lgbt rights. So you can't criticize them as inauthentic or insufficiently left wing or whatever.

[Intell]

The Joint List is obviously catch-all for all Arab movements and politics and they are marketed as such. They would therefore be homophobes in the joint list as well as progressives.

Can someone tell me the differences within the Arab parties? Hadash is obviously the social democratic party and is? more moderate on the Palestinian Nationalism issues.

Balad is the left-wing Arab nationalist party, less socialist but more radical on the nationalism issue?

UAL represents the Islamic Arab movement, are they more moderate or extreme on the nationalism issue.

Also what's Ta'al as a political party?

Why did UAL and Balad unite, and Hadash-Ta'al unite?

[Hnv1]

The Joint List is obviously catch-all for all Arab movements and politics and they are marketed as such. They would therefore be homophobes in the joint list as well as progressives.

Can someone tell me the differences within the Arab parties? Hadash is obviously the social democratic party and is? more moderate on the Palestinian Nationalism issues.

Balad is the left-wing Arab nationalist party, less socialist but more radical on the nationalism issue?

UAL represents the Islamic Arab movement, are they more moderate or extreme on the nationalism issue.

Also what's Ta'al as a political party?

Why did UAL and Balad unite, and Hadash-Ta'al unite?

Ideology is not the core issue here, parts of Hadash are quite radical regarding Arab nationalism on par with Balad.

Hadash- the old guard, a left leaning faction more inclined towards moderate nationalism, a right wing faction (mainly the Nazareth branch) regarding nationalism and commitment to anti imperialism. voters are more educated, Christians, from the cities or villages up north.

Balad - radical, similar demographics as Hadash but with younger voters, but almost exclusively of educated elite from the north or the cities. Hadash also have "working class" voters if you like

Ta'al - basically the representation of the PA in Israel but a bit of a catch all party. Tibi is similar to Lapid for Arabs, a bit of centrist on a lot of issues without any core issue. He does well in the triangle and parts of the north. the least "political" of them, more of a personal vessel to Tibi

Ra'am - the Islamic movement is indeed the home to muslim voters, but under it all Ra'am is basically representing the Bedouin and the poor Muslims of the triangle and the north. Islamism isn't really the political agenda.

[Hnv1]

Likud are threatening to call off negotiations if B&W replace the speaker. they're claiming they want the speaker and finance for the first year and a half while B&W will have foreign and defence during that time but then they change.

I find it implausible, they're just playing in the center circle the prevent the anti-bibi legislation.