SCOTUS overturns Roe megathread (pg 53 - confirmed)

[Person Man]

Was in D.C. the other day seeing some women holding up protest signs and one of them was like "We are NEVER going back."

I thought, "Ah, but we have already gone back, my friend."

Dobbs has shattered something that cannot be regained. A notion which, at least since the 1960s, but perhaps since the abolitionist movement of the early 19th century, has reigned in Western culture -- the notion that social history is a linear process of progress, whereby rights are continually expanded. In my view, that, is one of the most important legacies of Dobbs. It shows that social regression is in fact possible.

A historic "first" has occurred, but not the kind social liberals often celebrate. Rather, for the first time, a major social right that was once considered settled has been taken away. No matter how many rights you think you have as a woman, as a minority, as a gay, as any kind of minority, it can be taken away again.

The only group that rights cannot be taken away from are white men. Anything else, and your rights in the West will always be up for debate -- perpetually up for debate. You cannot sleep soundly. That is the real difference between social classes.

Yeah. It’s basically the rebirth of Ancien Regime and potentially the beginning of the end of “The West” (as the successor of the Salic societies) the same way Afghanistan was for the Soviets or Adrianople was for the Romans (a battle in 376 where a Roman army was destroyed and the emperor killed when he tried to personally lead the interception of armed migrants). And I say “might” because only hindsight will determine if this is some sort of historical Moment of Inertia of some weird hiccup like Prohibition or Dred Scott. By the way, that case is similar to Dobbs in that the court dispositively said a particular right simply is not recognizing (the right for nonwhites to be citizens vs the right for a woman to have or not have children).

[Sir Mohamed]

Unconventional stuff:

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1580561194532098050

[Hermit For Peace]

Unconventional stuff:

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1580561194532098050

Wow! Good stuff. People caring about other people.

[Progressive Pessimist]

Unconventional stuff:

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1580561194532098050

Wow! Good stuff. People caring about other people.

It really shouldn't have to come to this though.

[Hermit For Peace]

Unconventional stuff:

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1580561194532098050

Wow! Good stuff. People caring about other people.

It really shouldn't have to come to this though.

No, but we have to deal with reality.

[HillGoose]

wild how the big gov death panels have come to America and all u have is crickets from almost all of those who claim to be "conservative"

basically it seems like big gov can deny any woman life saving medication or whatever bcuz any drug taken in sufficient enough quantity would prob cause an abortion, so basically if someone is on the "wrong side" of the govt for some reason they can just deny their meds and kill them

remember like last year when Texas basically decided to implement East German Stasi style "community reporting" on women who had abortions, and now we've got death panels, who would have thought that the republicans would be the ones to bring east german commie style big govt to the USA, smh.

[Person Man]

wild how the big gov death panels have come to America and all u have is crickets from almost all of those who claim to be "conservative"

basically it seems like big gov can deny any woman life saving medication or whatever bcuz any drug taken in sufficient enough quantity would prob cause an abortion, so basically if someone is on the "wrong side" of the govt for some reason they can just deny their meds and kill them

remember like last year when Texas basically decided to implement East German Stasi style "community reporting" on women who had abortions, and now we've got death panels, who would have thought that the republicans would be the ones to bring east german commie style big govt to the USA, smh.

Again it is just unfathomable how much patience we have for this. Maybe the next election cycle will take care of this and current tactics are working, but barring that, the thing we have to do to stay relevant is to escalate appropriately.

EDIT: My guess is that it involves going into Republican dominated swing states like Wisconsin, Ohio, Arizona, and Georgia and willfully disobeying the laws in way or another and trying to use things like Jury Nullification to tie up the system. That's the next level of disobedience. My guess is that the response would be 1) make abortion a misdemeanor instead of a felony, 2) be more interested in compromise, or 3) they will start cracking down on everyone's rights to "make an example" and gain even more power.

At that point, we would have to consider further next steps. It is difficult to imagine protest becoming resistance, but I imagine that it is not an infinite curve or that half the country will just give up.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Was in D.C. the other day seeing some women holding up protest signs and one of them was like "We are NEVER going back."

I thought, "Ah, but we have already gone back, my friend."

Dobbs has shattered something that cannot be regained. A notion which, at least since the 1960s, but perhaps since the abolitionist movement of the early 19th century, has reigned in Western culture -- the notion that social history is a linear process of progress, whereby rights are continually expanded. In my view, that, is one of the most important legacies of Dobbs. It shows that social regression is in fact possible.

A historic "first" has occurred, but not the kind social liberals often celebrate. Rather, for the first time, a major social right that was once considered settled has been taken away. No matter how many rights you think you have as a woman, as a minority, as a gay, as any kind of minority, it can be taken away again.

The only group that rights cannot be taken away from are white men. Anything else, and your rights in the West will always be up for debate -- perpetually up for debate. You cannot sleep soundly. That is the real difference between social classes.

The very idea of a government taking away rights from people in the blink of an eye is just a horrifying concept in general. The "land of the free" locks up and surveils more people than civilized countries do. I've been saying since the Patriot Act passed - yes, when I was like nine - that America is becoming a police state.

This meme isn't about abortion but it's a perfect example of how Americans are not a free people, or at least not as free as we claim to be:

[Hermit For Peace]

I guess people have been saturated with the abortion issue, and now it's tanking in the polls. The economy continues to astound us all, the continual rising of prices....

I just read that people are thinking the Republicans are looking good now, maybe they will have a blowout election and gain the house and senate. Well, okay, whatever happens. All I can say is that I am so glad I am not worried about abortions and pregnancies and kids and all that at my age. But I do feel sorry for the women and girls in our society presently who are concerned.

I also read that some people are electing to have tube removal and guys are getting vasectomies. They don't want to deal with pregnancy or the complications of it in this new anti-choice climate.

I'm totally not on board with just about anything the Republicans try to do, so if there is a blowout, I am going back into hibernation until people start having their freedoms back and aren't ruled by a bunch of loonies and conspiracy theorists and election fraudists.

[Progressive Pessimist]

I guess people have been saturated with the abortion issue, and now it's tanking in the polls. The economy continues to astound us all, the continual rising of prices....

I just read that people are thinking the Republicans are looking good now, maybe they will have a blowout election and gain the house and senate. Well, okay, whatever happens. All I can say is that I am so glad I am not worried about abortions and pregnancies and kids and all that at my age. But I do feel sorry for the women and girls in our society presently who are concerned.

I also read that some people are electing to have tube removal and guys are getting vasectomies. They don't want to deal with pregnancy or the complications of it in this new anti-choice climate.

I'm totally not on board with just about anything the Republicans try to do, so if there is a blowout, I am going back into hibernation until people start having their freedoms back and aren't ruled by a bunch of loonies and conspiracy theorists and election fraudists.

It really makes me sick that this country is going to sell the concept of autonomy and privacy as well as our own republic down the river for the sake of spite.

[Person Man]

I guess people have been saturated with the abortion issue, and now it's tanking in the polls. The economy continues to astound us all, the continual rising of prices....

I just read that people are thinking the Republicans are looking good now, maybe they will have a blowout election and gain the house and senate. Well, okay, whatever happens. All I can say is that I am so glad I am not worried about abortions and pregnancies and kids and all that at my age. But I do feel sorry for the women and girls in our society presently who are concerned.

I also read that some people are electing to have tube removal and guys are getting vasectomies. They don't want to deal with pregnancy or the complications of it in this new anti-choice climate.

I'm totally not on board with just about anything the Republicans try to do, so if there is a blowout, I am going back into hibernation until people start having their freedoms back and aren't ruled by a bunch of loonies and conspiracy theorists and election fraudists.

It really makes me sick that this country is going to sell the concept of autonomy and privacy as well as our own republic down the river for the sake of spite.

If it turns out that fascists here are as dumb fascists “there”, I think it will eventually pass.

[brucejoel99]

https://twitter.com/grace_panetta/status/1582373078046494721

[Person Man]

https://twitter.com/grace_panetta/status/1582373078046494721

One thing to consider is if both 2022 and 2024 are both Republican waves, Republicans could be set up the say Democrats were in 2009. They might be able to pass a federal abortion ban. My guess is that they might have enough defections to take the current 15 week ban and make it a 18 week ban or something. They could even have the votes to do a heartbeat law, though.  I'm guessing if it came to that, Democrats have two choices. Defund the ban and sign an executive order refusing to enforce it or use that as an excuse to overturn the filibuster.

Signing a substantial abortion ban will have the same effect that Obamacare had or the effect repealing the filibuster would.

[Person Man]

Another serious/sarcastic sh**tpost:
If you go to a convenience store on a road trip through a state where abortion is illegal, do you think the clerk would understand why you say “May Christ be with you!” when you normally thank them upon check out? Would it be something if they are like “huh?” And you are like “shhhh… I know who’s  in charge around here”. What if they replied back with “And with your spirit!”

$50 if one of you does it.

[bagelman]

Another serious/sarcastic sh**tpost:
If you go to a convenience store on a road trip through a state where abortion is illegal, do you think the clerk would understand why you say “May Christ be with you!” when you normally thank them upon check out? Would it be something if they are like “huh?” And you are like “shhhh… I know who’s  in charge around here”. What if they replied back with “And with your spirit!”

$50 if one of you does it.

You're more likely then not to just be seen as a right wing loony evangelical.

[Person Man]

Another serious/sarcastic sh**tpost:
If you go to a convenience store on a road trip through a state where abortion is illegal, do you think the clerk would understand why you say “May Christ be with you!” when you normally thank them upon check out? Would it be something if they are like “huh?” And you are like “shhhh… I know who’s  in charge around here”. What if they replied back with “And with your spirit!”

$50 if one of you does it.

You're more likely then not to just be seen as a right wing loony evangelical.

And more likely than not, so is the cashier.

[Person Man]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/18/illegal-abortion-pill-network/

[Hermit For Peace]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/18/illegal-abortion-pill-network/

I got through some of it, it was quite long. But very interesting. I am reminded of the prohibition days of our history and no matter how much they tried to ban alcohol, all they did was create an "alternative" network of delivery for the product. And I'm sure many people died in the process.

And then they found out that you can't regulate something as fundamental as drinking alcohol. People will do it no matter what. Same with abortions. Women will have them no matter what. We can do it the safer way, or the prohibition way -- which we know doesn't work. But some people in our society have the need to reinvent the wheel, and the rest of us are stuck in their warped thinking until we find a way out.

[DaleCooper]

Was in D.C. the other day seeing some women holding up protest signs and one of them was like "We are NEVER going back."

I thought, "Ah, but we have already gone back, my friend."

Dobbs has shattered something that cannot be regained. A notion which, at least since the 1960s, but perhaps since the abolitionist movement of the early 19th century, has reigned in Western culture -- the notion that social history is a linear process of progress, whereby rights are continually expanded. In my view, that, is one of the most important legacies of Dobbs. It shows that social regression is in fact possible.

A historic "first" has occurred, but not the kind social liberals often celebrate. Rather, for the first time, a major social right that was once considered settled has been taken away. No matter how many rights you think you have as a woman, as a minority, as a gay, as any kind of minority, it can be taken away again.

The only group that rights cannot be taken away from are white men. Anything else, and your rights in the West will always be up for debate -- perpetually up for debate. You cannot sleep soundly. That is the real difference between social classes.

The very idea of a government taking away rights from people in the blink of an eye is just a horrifying concept in general. The "land of the free" locks up and surveils more people than civilized countries do. I've been saying since the Patriot Act passed - yes, when I was like nine - that America is becoming a police state.

I know this is an old post that I'm replying to, but I think you're definitely right about all of this. I've been noticing since long before Trump that the American people (not just the politicians, but the people themselves) are very eager to see rights taken away. "Live and let live" as a philosophy is totally gone, at least from what I can see. I also think we're dangerously close to losing the 1st Amendment too. Obviously it'll still exist, but I would not be surprised if there's a dramatic reinterpretation of it in the near future that limits the speech it protects, I'm betting due to "think of the children" legislation, which is a mindset that is very prominent now.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Was in D.C. the other day seeing some women holding up protest signs and one of them was like "We are NEVER going back."

I thought, "Ah, but we have already gone back, my friend."

Dobbs has shattered something that cannot be regained. A notion which, at least since the 1960s, but perhaps since the abolitionist movement of the early 19th century, has reigned in Western culture -- the notion that social history is a linear process of progress, whereby rights are continually expanded. In my view, that, is one of the most important legacies of Dobbs. It shows that social regression is in fact possible.

A historic "first" has occurred, but not the kind social liberals often celebrate. Rather, for the first time, a major social right that was once considered settled has been taken away. No matter how many rights you think you have as a woman, as a minority, as a gay, as any kind of minority, it can be taken away again.

The only group that rights cannot be taken away from are white men. Anything else, and your rights in the West will always be up for debate -- perpetually up for debate. You cannot sleep soundly. That is the real difference between social classes.

The very idea of a government taking away rights from people in the blink of an eye is just a horrifying concept in general. The "land of the free" locks up and surveils more people than civilized countries do. I've been saying since the Patriot Act passed - yes, when I was like nine - that America is becoming a police state.

I know this is an old post that I'm replying to, but I think you're definitely right about all of this. I've been noticing since long before Trump that the American people (not just the politicians, but the people themselves) are very eager to see rights taken away. "Live and let live" as a philosophy is totally gone, at least from what I can see. I also think we're dangerously close to losing the 1st Amendment too. Obviously it'll still exist, but I would not be surprised if there's a dramatic reinterpretation of it in the near future that limits the speech it protects, I'm betting due to "think of the children" legislation, which is a mindset that is very prominent now.

In fairness, compared to the Tipper Gore/Joe Lieberman era of censorship that we had throughout the '90s and early aughts, we've become slightly more "libertarian" in that sense. A state legalizing recreational marijuana would never have been considered a possibility 20/30 years ago. When Trump suggested banning video games to stop school shootings, he was (appropriately) laughed at.

But yes, the "live and let live" philosophy is increasingly out of tune with the current environment, and it's really sad to see. You choose your tribe and defend it to the end, consequences be damned.

[patzer]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/18/illegal-abortion-pill-network/

I got through some of it, it was quite long. But very interesting. I am reminded of the prohibition days of our history and no matter how much they tried to ban alcohol, all they did was create an "alternative" network of delivery for the product. And I'm sure many people died in the process.

And then they found out that you can't regulate something as fundamental as drinking alcohol. People will do it no matter what. Same with abortions. Women will have them no matter what. We can do it the safer way, or the prohibition way -- which we know doesn't work. But some people in our society have the need to reinvent the wheel, and the rest of us are stuck in their warped thinking until we find a way out.

Feels somewhat sexist to me to talk about “women” as a monolith here, as if all women are just clamoring to kill their kids and will do anything they can to make sure they still can. It’s only a minority of women who’ve done that.

But the more general point does have accuracy insofar as you can’t just legally ban a thing and expect people to stop doing it. You need actual societal change. And that comes with providing resources, advocacy, etc, not just policing.

It’s similar to murder of adults insofar as you’re always going to get it and even in deprived communities you’d have a hard time cracking down on gangs with solely police effort– you need to tackle the problem at the root, obviously crack down on the crime but also tackle the causes behind people turning to it in the first place. In the case of cracking down on murder of babies, that sort of “root cause” intervention would take the form of better healthcare and financial support for mothers, easy access to contraception, and an easy adoption process (give both mother and father an easy way to relinquish all rights and responsibilities over their child, and if both parents do so and nobody they know wants the baby, they go into the adoption system).

And also better education– there are too many people completely convinced that babies have no rights when unborn and it’s okay to kill them. Actually have education in schools about this, go into the biology, share stories of babies who survived attempted abortion, stories of babies who survived highly premature birth, etc.

[Person Man]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/18/illegal-abortion-pill-network/

I got through some of it, it was quite long. But very interesting. I am reminded of the prohibition days of our history and no matter how much they tried to ban alcohol, all they did was create an "alternative" network of delivery for the product. And I'm sure many people died in the process.

And then they found out that you can't regulate something as fundamental as drinking alcohol. People will do it no matter what. Same with abortions. Women will have them no matter what. We can do it the safer way, or the prohibition way -- which we know doesn't work. But some people in our society have the need to reinvent the wheel, and the rest of us are stuck in their warped thinking until we find a way out.

Feels somewhat sexist to me to talk about “women” as a monolith here, as if all women are just clamoring to kill their kids and will do anything they can to make sure they still can. It’s only a minority of women who’ve done that.

But the more general point does have accuracy insofar as you can’t just legally ban a thing and expect people to stop doing it. You need actual societal change. And that comes with providing resources, advocacy, etc, not just policing.

It’s similar to murder of adults insofar as you’re always going to get it and even in deprived communities you’d have a hard time cracking down on gangs with solely police effort– you need to tackle the problem at the root, obviously crack down on the crime but also tackle the causes behind people turning to it in the first place. In the case of cracking down on murder of babies, that sort of “root cause” intervention would take the form of better healthcare and financial support for mothers, easy access to contraception, and an easy adoption process (give both mother and father an easy way to relinquish all rights and responsibilities over their child, and if both parents do so and nobody they know wants the baby, they go into the adoption system).

And also better education– there are too many people completely convinced that babies have no rights when unborn and it’s okay to kill them. Actually have education in schools about this, go into the biology, share stories of babies who survived attempted abortion, stories of babies who survived highly premature birth, etc.

On one hand, propaganda doesn’t work and unless your opinion of humanity is that low (I’m getting there so who knows with you!), it’s very difficult to believe that the issue is as simple as you are letting on.

[patzer]

On one hand, propaganda doesn’t work and unless your opinion of humanity is that low (I’m getting there so who knows with you!), it’s very difficult to believe that the issue is as simple as you are letting on.

Education can sometimes work but even with this which is one of the most blatant present day injustices, it’s very hard for public opinion to change solely on activism.

I’m not optimistic, but I still hope. Very easy to grow cynical about how arbitrary human empathy is. An unborn baby can be either a precious life to be cherished or a clump of cells that it’s okay to brutally end the life of; an animal being held under atrocious conditions raised to be killed would receive empathy if it’s a dog but not if it’s a pig; for people in general there’s the pure luck of where you’re born in the world...

But there have been activism and education campaigns before which have seen genuine change. So maybe there’s still hope, we’ll see.

[Person Man]

On one hand, propaganda doesn’t work and unless your opinion of humanity is that low (I’m getting there so who knows with you!), it’s very difficult to believe that the issue is as simple as you are letting on.

Education can sometimes work but even with this which is one of the most blatant present day injustices, it’s very hard for public opinion to change solely on activism.

I’m not optimistic, but I still hope. Very easy to grow cynical about how arbitrary human empathy is. An unborn baby can be either a precious life to be cherished or a clump of cells that it’s okay to brutally end the life of; an animal being held under atrocious conditions raised to be killed would receive empathy if it’s a dog but not if it’s a pig; for people in general there’s the pure luck of where you’re born in the world...

But there have been activism and education campaigns before which have seen genuine change. So maybe there’s still hope, we’ll see.

I mean, things are arbitrary sometimes and sometimes you don’t understand things, but most of the time society needs arbitrary things like this to survive. Should homelessness be considered trespassing? Is bankruptcy or taxation theft? Is prison or public schools slavery? Is public funding for healthcare  slavery to doctors? Is the death penalty murder? It’s not that simple.

But yes. I think abortion is more like homelessness or bankruptcy. Perhaps it shouldn’t be permitted but not because it is the same as a black and white crime. Child prevention is not automatically child murder and the transfer/destruction  of property without expressed consent is not always conversion.  All of these things are things that are to be avoided but how we do so is a morally reasonable conversation.

[ListMan38]

My personal opinion is that, while I am on the fence from a personal standpoint, a ban is not the answer for the following reasons:
1. A ban will not stop abortions, only bring them to less safe means
2. When Life Begins is not a settled moral question, and people can be of different belief systems in that regard