Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[Хahar 🤔]

Presidentialization of the PMO has basically been made inevitable by our unimaginably hyper-partisan legislative branch. A "rebel" in Canada is an MP who votes with his party only 97% of the time.

This analysis appears backward. Every country that uses the Westminster system imposes such rigid discipline. It can reasonably be said to be a defining feature of parliamentary government. By contrast, presidential systems allow far more freedom to individual legislators, because they are elected in their own right (rather than to bring about a specific government) and because the continued existence of the government is not dependent on their actual support.

I can think of four Liberal MPs - Lamoureux, McKay, Tassi and Scarpaleggia - who were all social conservatives until Trudeau came around and made those views punishable by removal. A Westminster purist would see more issue with MPs not being allowed to differ from party lines, than someone saying "I'm running for PM" in a Youtube video.

This here is confusion of internal party democracy with outward voting records. Members of the House of Representatives in Australia vote just as loyally with their party as in the Canadian Commons, and yet legislative caucuses are so strong that they cause severe political issues there. Political parties in the Westminster system basically rely on a democratic centralist model, where internal debate is permissible but external dissension is not allowed. It is perhaps true that party discipline for Canadian legislators was looser in the past than it is now, but you cannot find one country in the world using the Westminster system where regular disagreement is not punished.

The presidentialization of Canadian politics embodied by Poilievre is the product of right-wing embrace of American political customs. The reason for this seems straightforward enough: Canadian political institutions and traditions are associated  with the Liberal Laurentian elite. This is why, if memory serves, Liberal voters are the most supportive of the monarchy in opinion polls. This is also why the right-wing occupation of Ottawa has all kinds of American right-wing imagery.

In theory Singh is in a great position to act Prime Ministerial and talk tough without having to actually deal with the consequences but he's reverted to his usual HR speak of "we can't tolerate racism" and "this is unacceptable". I've had a problem with Singh's leadership for ages but I think I can put a pin on the biggest problem he has: he has zero expectation of becoming Prime Minister, to the point where he's been a Federal leader for years yet can't give a straightforward answer whenever anyone asks what he'd do in response to any given problem as PM. At this moment his two biggest opponents are squabbling in the dirt and he can go any direction he wants and plausibly come out on top. He can get tough and talk about seizing trucks or charging million dollar fines or he can be conciliatory and talk about ending divisiveness and bringing people together but instead he's just copying Trudeau but without the force of government behind him. The NDP desperately needs a more ambitious leader but the base inexplicably loves him.

Plenty of people here recognized this after the election (I remember on election night the NDP woman was talking about how proud everyone was of Jagmeet rather than having any thoughts at all on the NDP's failure to make any significant gains), but when I talked about this a Dipper here gave me a metaphor about how life is a highway and the journey (which I guess here means participating in the political process) is more important than the destination (presumably this means actually forming government) and really who cares about whether you ever reach the destination when the Trans-Canadian Highway is so beautiful? NDP activists love Jagmeet Singh because he's a born loser just like they are. He can't even imagine winning so he doesn't have to challenge them in any way.

[StateBoiler]

The presidentialization of Canadian politics embodied by Poilievre is the product of right-wing embrace of American political customs.

Bullsh*t. Explain Justin Trudeau if you think this is a recent phenomenon. Do you think Trudeau is this great Parliamentarian that goes to the House of Commons and makes this passionate speech on an issue and then legislation comes raining in from his lieutenant that passes and then receives Royal Assent? Look at his record, the answer to that question is no.

The Liberals made last minute decisions on very weighty things (e.g. renovation of NORAD among others), dissolved Parliament immediately after so none of these decisions would get debated on the Commons floor, have an election, "we need a government that can respond to the challenges of today" blah blah blah all that sh*t, then once the election was over it took them forever to announce a Cabinet and have Parliament sit again, just in time to say "we must rush a few bills through Parliament before end of year!", and it was about 3 months until they had mandate letters for their ministers published. This was an election where almost literally nothing changed, why it took so long to get things going I don't think anyone has an idea other than the governing party could not be bothered.

All that time where Parliament is not sitting, there's still crises going on, there's still decisions being made, it's just the Parliament has no say in it. Who does? The presidentialized Prime Minister and his unelected inner circle. Meanwhile, Cabinet Ministers have become more irrelevant than ever on being allowed to have an independent policy-making power from PMO. Trudeau did not invent these things coming into being, he's just exacerbated them and made them worse than ever before. Meanwhile he's a weak touch on the problems facing the country, yet his opposition are shooting themselves in the foot (Conservatives) or are irrelevant (NDP, Bloc) and his caucus don't have the balls to drop him and find a leader among their number worth a sh*t. I do think there's more headwinds for Chrystia Freeland than there was previously if she comes off as Pierre Trudeau's Heir's Heir.

[Хahar 🤔]

The presidentialization of Canadian politics embodied by Poilievre is the product of right-wing embrace of American political customs.

Bullsh*t. Explain Justin Trudeau if you think this is a recent phenomenon. Do you think Trudeau is this great Parliamentarian that goes to the House of Commons and makes this passionate speech on an issue and then legislation comes raining in from his lieutenant that passes and then receives Royal Assent? Look at his record, the answer to that question is no. The Liberals made last minute decisions on very weight things (e.g. renovation of NORAD), dissolved Parliament so none of these decisions would get debated on the Commons floor, have an election, "we need a government that can respond to the challenges of today" blah blah blah all that sh*t, then once the election was over it took them forever to announce a Cabinet and have Parliament sit again, just in time to say "we must rush a few bills through Parliament before end of year!", and it was about 3 months until they had mandate letters for their ministers published. This was an election where almost literally nothing changed, why it took so long to get things going I don't think anyone has an idea other than the governing party could not be bothered. All that time where Parliament is not sitting, there's still crises going on, there's still decisions being made, it's just the Parliament has no say in it. Who does? The presidentialized Prime Minister and his unelected inner circle. Meanwhile, Cabinet Ministers have become more irrelevant than ever on being allowed to have an independent policy-making power from PMO. Trudeau did not invent these things coming into being, he's just exacerbated them and made them worse than ever before. Meanwhile he's a weak touch on the problems facing the country.

From your response it seems like you think that I like or am sympathetic to Justin Trudeau, so let's get that out of the way. I don't and I'm not.

The behavior you describe Trudeau's government engaging in, controlling parliamentary sittings to render the legislature subordinate to the executive, is neither particularly "American" nor at all alien to the Westminster system. Ship money was so important in the 1630s because the English government refused to let Parliament sit for a whole decade. Trudeau's behavior is in keeping with the very oldest Westminster traditions, far older than Canada as a nation. Stephen Harper behaved in the same way when he prorogued Parliament in 2009 or 2010 so that the opposition couldn't remove him. None of this is what I'm referring to.

What is being discussed here is Poilievre saying "I'm running for Prime Minister" rather than "I'm running for leader of the Conservative Party". Justin Trudeau would not do this, and this is not because he's a more respectable or more honorable person or whatever other characteristics you might think I'm attributing to him. He wouldn't do it because Liberal voters are deeply attached to the outward language that distinguishes Canada from America in a way that Conservative voters are not.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Presidentialization of the PMO has basically been made inevitable by our unimaginably hyper-partisan legislative branch. A "rebel" in Canada is an MP who votes with his party only 97% of the time.

This analysis appears backward. Every country that uses the Westminster system imposes such rigid discipline. It can reasonably be said to be a defining feature of parliamentary government. By contrast, presidential systems allow far more freedom to individual legislators, because they are elected in their own right (rather than to bring about a specific government) and because the continued existence of the government is not dependent on their actual support.

I can think of four Liberal MPs - Lamoureux, McKay, Tassi and Scarpaleggia - who were all social conservatives until Trudeau came around and made those views punishable by removal. A Westminster purist would see more issue with MPs not being allowed to differ from party lines, than someone saying "I'm running for PM" in a Youtube video.

This here is confusion of internal party democracy with outward voting records. Members of the House of Representatives in Australia vote just as loyally with their party as in the Canadian Commons, and yet legislative caucuses are so strong that they cause severe political issues there. Political parties in the Westminster system basically rely on a democratic centralist model, where internal debate is permissible but external dissension is not allowed. It is perhaps true that party discipline for Canadian legislators was looser in the past than it is now, but you cannot find one country in the world using the Westminster system where regular disagreement is not punished.

The presidentialization of Canadian politics embodied by Poilievre is the product of right-wing embrace of American political customs. The reason for this seems straightforward enough: Canadian political institutions and traditions are associated  with the Liberal Laurentian elite. This is why, if memory serves, Liberal voters are the most supportive of the monarchy in opinion polls. This is also why the right-wing occupation of Ottawa has all kinds of American right-wing imagery.

I concede that parliamentary discipline isn't incompatible with Westminster systems - in any case, if we're talking about the PM becoming "presidential" rather than "first among equals", Canada has been like that for a long time, far more so than we see in the UK for example. In fact, I would suggest that no party has done it to the extent the Liberals have done with Trudeau.

Poilievre isn't re-inventing the wheel here - Trudeau may not have referred to himself as a "prime ministerial candidate", but his party has essentially run on his image for three elections now, even calling their campaigns "Team Trudeau". And Trudeau certainly runs the government out of the PMO, as did Harper. In a sense, Canada has an unusually strong quasi-presidential system, and has had for some time, and our campaigns have already come to resemble Presidential elections. Poilievre calling himself a "Prime Ministerial candidate" is a natural conclusion of our system, not some unacceptable violation of modern norms.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

And as for the "Americanization" of our politics, yeah again that's not news by any stretch, and Poilievre isn't introducing a new element here. I think if you follow Canadian election campaigns without understanding the system, you could easily be mistaken into thinking it's a presidential campaign.

One may lament Americanization, but that too is a natural conclusion. Our parliamentary system is designed in the image of the British one, and that's a country most Canadians have quite little familiarity with, especially their politics. Meanwhile the US is, like, right there. Many Canadians follow American politics more closely than their own, and this isn't some insidious conspiracy, it's just what happens when you share a border with the single most influential country in history.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Update on the Ambassador Bridge protest: there's somewhere between 100 and 150 vehicles on Huron Church in Windsor, plus about a hundred or so more non-participating sympathizers parked nearby. Vast majority are regular cars, a few mobile homes and maybe just over a half dozen actual rigs. Several hundred people on foot at the intersection barbequing, dancing and lighting fires.

Considering the value of the Ambassador Bridge's trade I'm kind of shocked there weren't thousands of OPP and RCMP with tanks but Windsor PD clearly isn't equipped for this. If this continues even a day longer the auto industry is going to start choking from supply shortages.

[Хahar 🤔]

And as for the "Americanization" of our politics, yeah again that's not news by any stretch, and Poilievre isn't introducing a new element here. I think if you follow Canadian election campaigns without understanding the system, you could easily be mistaken into thinking it's a presidential campaign.

One may lament Americanization, but that too is a natural conclusion. Our parliamentary system is designed in the image of the British one, and that's a country most Canadians have quite little familiarity with, especially their politics. Meanwhile the US is, like, right there. Many Canadians follow American politics more closely than their own, and this isn't some insidious conspiracy, it's just what happens when you share a border with the single most influential country in history.

I will say that it's easy for Canadians to overstate how similar to America their political process is. As a specific example, every American who visits Canada around election time is startled by the sheer number of color-coded signs. There's no real equivalent in America.

[beesley]

I don't support the broader 'truckers', but good on Joel Lightbound.

[2952-0-0]

And as for the "Americanization" of our politics, yeah again that's not news by any stretch, and Poilievre isn't introducing a new element here. I think if you follow Canadian election campaigns without understanding the system, you could easily be mistaken into thinking it's a presidential campaign.

As others pointed out, each PM since the other Trudeau played their part in presidentializing the Prime Minister. Poilievre is pushing the boundaries, by not even pretending to be running for party leader.

Update on the Ambassador Bridge protest: there's somewhere between 100 and 150 vehicles on Huron Church in Windsor, plus about a hundred or so more non-participating sympathizers parked nearby. Vast majority are regular cars, a few mobile homes and maybe just over a half dozen actual rigs. Several hundred people on foot at the intersection barbequing, dancing and lighting fires.

Considering the value of the Ambassador Bridge's trade I'm kind of shocked there weren't thousands of OPP and RCMP with tanks but Windsor PD clearly isn't equipped for this. If this continues even a day longer the auto industry is going to start choking from supply shortages.

The strategy of the police in Windsor had been to wait it out, but they faced so much pressure to clear the blockade regardless of feelings. But, of course, the police should have been on standby since yesterday. The Toronto and Quebec police were much more proactive in this regard.

The Chrysler plant in Windsor sent people home due to the lack of work caused by the disruption of the bridge.

The occupiers became rattled that the real truckers hate their guts, and that the nearby McDonald's refused to serve them for not wearing their masks. They're, at this moment, spooked that one of their own was an informant, and they just attempted to re-block both directions of Huron Church Road, only to be blocked by the police. The group is now descending into a brawl outside the McDonald's.

[Benjamin Frank]

I don't support the broader 'truckers', but good on Joel Lightbound.

I find it more than a little odd that many of the same people who are praising Lightbound also criticized Prime Minister Trudeau for exercising his free speech rights in telling it like it is in regards to the Ottawa occupiers/terrorists, and said that if Trudeau had just self censored that these terrorists' feelings wouldn't have been hurt.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

I don't support the broader 'truckers', but good on Joel Lightbound.

I find it more than a little odd that many of the same people who are praising Lightbound also criticized Prime Minister Trudeau for exercising his free speech rights in telling it like it is in regards to the Ottawa occupiers/terrorists, and said that if Trudeau had just self censored that these terrorists' feelings wouldn't have been hurt.

Yes, it is quite silly indeed.
PM Trudeau has free speech rights too.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1490798380708208646

There's one point against the "people who are mad about the truckers will flock to Trudeau!" theory

In Windsor news, the mayor is calling for a hundred more cops but the blockade remains in place. They were hoping it would shrink but it's actually added some mobile homes and seems well supplied. For reference Windsor PD has 500 cops and London has 600, so bringing in 100 isn't as easy as it sounds. Of course the enormous Toronto PD could help, but they've already sent a contingent to Ottawa and Toronto has real crime to deal with.

[Benjamin Frank]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1490798380708208646
There's one point against the "people who are mad about the truckers will flock to Trudeau!" theory

In Windsor news, the mayor is calling for a hundred more cops but the blockade remains in place. They were hoping it would shrink but it's actually added some mobile homes and seems well supplied. For reference Windsor PD has 500 cops and London has 600, so bringing in 100 isn't as easy as it sounds. Of course the enormous Toronto PD could help, but they've already sent a contingent to Ottawa and Toronto has real crime to deal with.

This is real crime.

[MaxQue]

There is a simple solution. Justin just keeps to stop whimpering and give the local police forces the help they need.

[Benjamin Frank]

Premier Jason Kenney on the 'othering' of people he dislikes vs the 'othering' of people he likes.

https://twitter.com/CBCFletch/status/1491273458877366275

[T'Chenka]

Premier Jason Kenney on the 'othering' of people he dislikes vs the 'othering' of people he likes.

https://twitter.com/CBCFletch/status/1491273458877366275

Add one more to the pile of reasons he's a piece of excrement.

[beesley]

I don't support the broader 'truckers', but good on Joel Lightbound.

I find it more than a little odd that many of the same people who are praising Lightbound also criticized Prime Minister Trudeau for exercising his free speech rights in telling it like it is in regards to the Ottawa occupiers/terrorists, and said that if Trudeau had just self censored that these terrorists' feelings wouldn't have been hurt.

Well, no need to quote me, since I am not one of those people, and haven't been politicising this.

[DC Al Fine]

https://twitter.com/DavidColetto/status/1490798380708208646

There's one point against the "people who are mad about the truckers will flock to Trudeau!" theory

Agreed. No one is covering themselves in glory on this issue.

[DC Al Fine]

Leger's bi-weekly tracker asks several questions about the Freedom Convoy

It's a decidedly mixed bag.

About 1/3 of people support "the message the protests are conveying of no vaccine mandates and less public health measures".

About 2/3 consider the convoy a "selfish minority" (paraphrasing)

On the other side, approximately 45% each agree with:

"The Prime Minister and premiers share the blame for the protest in Ottawa because of their condescending attitude toward Canadians who disagree with vaccine mandates and lockdowns."

and

"I am vaccinated against COVID-19, but I do sympathize with the concerns and frustrations being voiced by people involved in the trucker protest in Ottawa."

[DabbingSanta]

No, whole cities are not being burned down in protest.  That is an outright lie.

Well, right wingers bought the myth of these new rules, since the vast majority of BLM protests didn't involve riots or otherwise illegal acts.

Beyond that, all 100% of these terrorists are blocking the streets of downtown Ottawa, impeding traffic and forcing businesses to close.  This, in itself, is subject to an injunction.

I find it more than a little odd that many of the same people who are praising Lightbound also criticized Prime Minister Trudeau for exercising his free speech rights in telling it like it is in regards to the Ottawa terrorists

[T'Chenka]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

[DabbingSanta]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

Sorry, you don’t get to decide what’s moral or not.  Also, the polls are rigged.  These protests have been largely peaceful. 

[T'Chenka]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

Sorry, you don’t get to decide what’s moral or not.  Also, the polls are rigged.  These protests have been largely peaceful. 

A good chunk of them have been terrorizing the city and the residents want them gone. Including a lot of residents that aren't particularly political. The mall had to shut down because they can't justify becoming an omicron hot spot and facing a class action lawsuit from all the employees that work there.

[DabbingSanta]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

Sorry, you don’t get to decide what’s moral or not.  Also, the polls are rigged.  These protests have been largely peaceful. 

A good chunk of them have been terrorizing the city and the residents want them gone. Including a lot of residents that aren't particularly political. The mall had to shut down because they can't justify becoming an omicron hot spot and facing a class action lawsuit from all the employees that work there.

I didn’t hear you saying this when BLM burned down entire cities last year.  Why do you suddenly care about lives and property?  Cause it fits your political agenda?  Hilarious.

[CumbrianLefty]

Why are people constantly comparing BLM and Anti-Vaxx protests?

The majority of people approved of the BLM protests overall (but not the bad stuff) , found the protest's message moral, and hoped the movement continued. The majority of people do not approve of the anti-vaxx convoy, find the protest's message immoral, and hope the movement ends.

I will add that it's somewhat understandable that this is happening at the end of omicron, but 90% of these protestors felt the same way about ending all restrictions in 2021 and possibly even 2020, so that doesn't necessarily apply in all contests of the phrase "I agree with the protestors".

Sorry, you don’t get to decide what’s moral or not.  Also, the polls are rigged.  These protests have been largely peaceful. 

A good chunk of them have been terrorizing the city and the residents want them gone. Including a lot of residents that aren't particularly political. The mall had to shut down because they can't justify becoming an omicron hot spot and facing a class action lawsuit from all the employees that work there.

I didn’t hear you saying this when BLM burned down entire cities last year.  Why do you suddenly care about lives and property?  Cause it fits your political agenda?  Hilarious.

Hyperbole alert.