Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[StateBoiler]

Paul Wells in his article shares that Michael Chong may have inadvertently caused this to happen now.

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/erin-otoole-and-the-multiverse-of-madness/

I'll leave my unnamed source behind soon, but perhaps only after canvassing a few more issues with him or her. First, this MP believes only Chong's Reform Act makes this sudden, quick crisis possible. And that the party leadership unwittingly prodded the rebels into quick action, starting with Chong. Last week columnist John Ivison quoted the urbane Toronto-area MP attempting to perch O'Toole's opponents on the horns of a dilemma: they could wait for a review vote in the party's convention in 2023, or they could invoke the Reform Act now. "We are a rule of law party and we have two processes laid out - the caucus process and the one through the party constitution at a national convention," Chong said. "To short-circuit that, to have an expedited third ad hoc option does not follow these processes." This received close attention in the caucus. Perhaps Chong thought he was ensuring the party would wait until next year. No such luck.

[2952-0-0]

The police are removing the blockade at the Alberta/Montana border, and are making arrests. Jason Kenney is the next politician to suffer a leopard-ate-face death. He supported the convoy that was headed to Ottawa, but didn't realize another convoy would block the border crossing. The wingnut base of the UCP support the blockade, while the business wing of the party were suffering due to it.

[mileslunn]

The police are removing the blockade at the Alberta/Montana border, and are making arrests. Jason Kenney is the next politician to suffer a leopard-ate-face death. He supported the convoy that was headed to Ottawa, but didn't realize another convoy would block the border crossing. The wingnut base of the UCP support the blockade, while the business wing of the party were suffering due to it.

In Alberta, right has dominated for so long that those further right feel emboldened to push their agenda and don't realize province isn't that right wing.  By contrast progressives unlike past are united behind Notley.  I know many don't believe NDP has a chance next year despite polls when in fact I am quite confident Notley will win.  I also think Alberta is more progressive than stereotype.  When you have a young fast growing population, things tend to change faster than elsewhere.  In fact I think Liberals or NDP if they actually put more effort into Alberta could dominate two main cities.  Not first go, but it would be a multi-election strategy probably taking 2-4 elections.  But many prefer to focus on seats they can win next election than long term thinking.

If Alberta progressives had their own Stacy Abrams, this could be done as in 2010 there was no way Georgia was going to turn blue in next cycle, but Abrams rightly believed it could be done in a decade and it worked.  Notley can win because Kenney has been so bad, but federally it needs to be a multi-election strategy. 

[King of Kensington]

"Party of Kim Campbell or Stephen Harper?"

https://twitter.com/BobBenzen/status/1488633402400071682/photo/1

[MaxQue]

"Party of Kim Campbell or Stephen Harper?"

https://twitter.com/BobBenzen/status/1488633402400071682/photo/1

I think you mean Kim Campbell or Stockwell Day.

[Aurelius]

What is Trudeau doing?

Don’t give these rabble an inch. You need to respond swiftly, without any prior warning, and without any recourse. Confiscate their trucks with civil asset forfeiture, suspend their commercial driving licenses, and send in the Army to move the trucks out of the way. Then, round up and throw the ringleaders in jail, shut down any media outlets emboldening or supporting them, and track down any other dissenters.

These petulant f#%ks deserve to be put in their place for daring to endanger the supply chains that feed millions of Canadians, all to stroke their egos with this petty little “protest”. You have no right to be a plague rat, and in fact, refusing to institute any sort of mandates would be negligence on the part of the government.

Make them answer for why they want millions of Canadians to starve and be unable to access basic goods and services. Make them answer for their childish behavior in refusing to take a vaccine that has been administered hundreds of millions of times, with barely any adverse consequences. Make them answer for why they want to exacerbate the worst supply chain crisis that country has endured in decades. Make them answer for why they believe their individual freedom is transcendental, and gives them carte blanche to infringe on those of others.

No sympathy for these truckers. F#%k around and find out.

Interesting avatar you have there.

[RogueBeaver]

https://twitter.com/BobBenzen/status/1488633402400071682 Between Benzen's low expectation setting and O'Toole offering to consider changing policies once again, IDK who wins tomorrow.

[2952-0-0]

Now the Rideau Centre will be closed for an entire week. That will cost thousands of retail workers a huge chunk of their income while a bunch of good for nothing scum are terrorizing local residents. It's high time to seek an injunction and order them out, and give them a 30 minute warning before the tear gas flies.

Congratulations, conservatives. You made the left seize the mantle of law-and-order.

[RogueBeaver]

https://twitter.com/RobertFife/status/1488698708665507842 Need more be said LOL.

[Lief 🗽]

Justin needs to take a page from his father’s book and have the military go “just watch me” on these trucker freaks.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

https://twitter.com/RobertFife/status/1488698708665507842
 Need more be said LOL.

Lol. Yeah, O'Toole is toast. I'm not personally too happy about the prospect of someone like Poilievre stepping up to the plate, but O'Toole is a lame duck at this point.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Justin needs to take a page from his father’s book and have the military go “just watch me” on these trucker freaks.

When his father went "just watch me" and sent the military to Montreal, the following were also the case:
1. The FLQ was an organized terrorist group. This trucker protest is a rowdy mob, full of awful characters for sure, but by no means an organized force.
2. The FLQ had kidnapped a British diplomat and a Quebec cabinet minister - the former was unharmed, but the latter was found dead in a car trunk. Nothing remotely close to that has happened.
3. In the October crisis, the mayor of Montreal and the Premier of Quebec had requested the federal government to step in. As of today, the mayor of Ottawa and the Premier of Ontario have requested nothing of the sort.
4. In the October crisis, Parliament had passed the War Measures Act to authorize the internal use of military force. The WMA has since been replaced by the Emergencies Act, but in any case, there is zero reason to believe that this protest meets WMA/Emergencies Act standards. Even if the government got the support to pass it, I doubt the courts would accept such a decision.
5. These "trucker" protestors, as disgusting as much of their behaviour may be, haven't even escalated to the level of a riot, let alone domestic terrorism. That was the pretext of the "just watch me" actions by Trudeau Senior, domestic terrorism. These guys are a nuisance, not terrorists.

Like come on, comparing this to the FLQ is completely overblowing the situation, and the use of force to quash what has been an overwhelmingly peaceful protest is the kind of thing Canada would condemn if it happened in literally any other country. And you think they should send in the military?

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

By the way, the argument that "freedom of _____ doesn't mean freedom from consequences" does not justify the use of force, if you genuinely support that freedom. If the state is willing to use force to stop something, by definition, you don't have the freedom to do it. It's like saying you have the freedom to rob a bank, but the consequence is that you'll go to jail...well then you're not free to rob a bank, are you?

The fact of the matter is, Canadians are allowed to demonstrate. Your cause is irrelevant, you have the right to protest the government through public demonstration. What you're not allowed to do is commit crimes and endanger the lives of other people. To the extent that these protestors are committing crimes and violence, by all means, lock those people up. If a riot breaks out, by all means, send in the riot police to break them up.

Some of the things that Ottawans are complaining about - the noise, the inconvenience...yeah, that's what a protest is meant to do. That is the very essence of protest. The violation of public health rules, I mean, so did the BLM protests but most reasonable people can agree that the right to gather and protest is more important than COVID protocol. Other issues like harassment and hate crimes should be prosecuted, but when these things happen, you prosecute the individuals doing these things.

I get that most of us don't agree with the message and tactics of these protestors, I really do. I have concerns over some of the recent public health measures, but these protestors are going about it in a pretty stupid way, and in any case I think "ending all public health measures" would be a stupid, irresponsible decision. But the right to protest doesn't end where your disagreements begin, we have clear standards and principles to decide these things, and those principles have to be applied universally and in an unbiased manner. Frankly, if you think that violence should be used to break up a non-violent protest that you disagree with, that's an admission that you don't really believe in liberal values. If you don't, by all means, you're entitled to your opinions. But many of the people who are calling for the use of force do identify as liberals, small or big L, and that view is not consistent with what they purport to believe.

[2952-0-0]

The problem here is that the residents in downtown Ottawa have suffered way beyond what's reasonable protest, and the protesters openly don't care about the consequences to other people. Freedom ends when other peoples' freedoms are damaged - in this case, the freedom to enjoy a quiet night's sleep, the freedom to earn a living at the mall, the freedom to attend school, and so on. The Ottawa police themselves admit they are too afraid to even issue tickets to those violating bylaws. When the police are even afraid to enforce small laws in an impartial way, then it's no longer a peaceful protest. If the protesters really want the freedom to honk their horns at night, they can find a currently closed campground in Algonquin Park, and honk all they want.

[MaxQue]

By the way, the argument that "freedom of _____ doesn't mean freedom from consequences" does not justify the use of force, if you genuinely support that freedom. If the state is willing to use force to stop something, by definition, you don't have the freedom to do it. It's like saying you have the freedom to rob a bank, but the consequence is that you'll go to jail...well then you're not free to rob a bank, are you?

The fact of the matter is, Canadians are allowed to demonstrate. Your cause is irrelevant, you have the right to protest the government through public demonstration. What you're not allowed to do is commit crimes and endanger the lives of other people. To the extent that these protestors are committing crimes and violence, by all means, lock those people up. If a riot breaks out, by all means, send in the riot police to break them up.

Some of the things that Ottawans are complaining about - the noise, the inconvenience...yeah, that's what a protest is meant to do. That is the very essence of protest. The violation of public health rules, I mean, so did the BLM protests but most reasonable people can agree that the right to gather and protest is more important than COVID protocol. Other issues like harassment and hate crimes should be prosecuted, but when these things happen, you prosecute the individuals doing these things.

I get that most of us don't agree with the message and tactics of these protestors, I really do. I have concerns over some of the recent public health measures, but these protestors are going about it in a pretty stupid way, and in any case I think "ending all public health measures" would be a stupid, irresponsible decision. But the right to protest doesn't end where your disagreements begin, we have clear standards and principles to decide these things, and those principles have to be applied universally and in an unbiased manner. Frankly, if you think that violence should be used to break up a non-violent protest that you disagree with, that's an admission that you don't really believe in liberal values. If you don't, by all means, you're entitled to your opinions. But many of the people who are calling for the use of force do identify as liberals, small or big L, and that view is not consistent with what they purport to believe.

Like a politician said today, a demonstration has a beginning and an end. This is not a demonstration anymore, it stopped being one on Sunday evening.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Agreed O'Toole is finished as leader.  Real danger is party moves further right.  But as someone who follows British politics closely, maybe choosing Poilievre or Lewis and then getting crushed in a general election will be what forces party to wake up and change. 

Agreed. The party moving further right is only a danger if it can successfully win an election that way. Which likely won't happen. The Conservatives need people like O'Toole and they need to move in that direction if they want to win. Luckily for leftists like me, the party seems to have no interest in doing anything like that at the moment.

I'm not actually sure it's so lucky. If the Conservatives always lose by default because they're nutjob conservatives, there will never be any pressure on the governing party to champion the big changes we need.

[DC Al Fine]

https://twitter.com/RobertFife/status/1488698708665507842 Need more be said LOL.

Guess the "it's TEH EVUL SOCONS" line didn't work.

[DC Al Fine]

Re: the next election

The Tories got a shade under 34% last time. Say they need to pick up six points to form government (probably a bit less than that, but suppose for argument sake).

Does anyone seriously believe that the Liberals have six points worth of white collar professional types, who were put off by pro-choice, pro-carbon tax, Liberal-gun-ban-accepting O'Toole, but would embrace the Tories if they moved just a little bit more left?

A significant chunk of those six points are going to have come from the PPC, and perhaps the Bloc Quebecois,  some sort of accomodation is going to have to be reached to win those voters over. Even among current Liberal/NDP voters, the path of least resistance is probably going to be in the voters concentrated in places like Northern Ontario and rural Newfoundland, not the Andrew Coyne types. Those voters aren't going to be won over with the sorts of things pundits usually think the Tories should do.

To be really blunt, if Poillievre becomes leader, I'd be more nervous for the party if he runs on a platform of fiscal orthodoxy, than if he does the sort of cultural conservative stuff pundits wring their hands over.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Re: the next election

The Tories got a shade under 34% last time. Say they need to pick up six points to form government (probably a bit less than that, but suppose for argument sake).

Does anyone seriously believe that the Liberals have six points worth of white collar professional types, who were put off by pro-choice, pro-carbon tax, Liberal-gun-ban-accepting O'Toole, but would embrace the Tories if they moved just a little bit more left?

A significant chunk of those six points are going to have come from the PPC, and perhaps the Bloc Quebecois,  some sort of accomodation is going to have to be reached to win those voters over. Even among current Liberal/NDP voters, the path of least resistance is probably going to be in the voters concentrated in places like Northern Ontario and rural Newfoundland, not the Andrew Coyne types. Those voters aren't going to be won over with the sorts of things pundits usually think the Tories should do.

To be really blunt, if Poillievre becomes leader, I'd be more nervous for the party if he runs on a platform of fiscal orthodoxy, than if he does the sort of cultural conservative stuff pundits wring their hands over.

The issue is that if the tories move right, and gain those votes especially on a culturally conservative basis much of the gains from that bloc will be offset by moving NDP voters back to the liberals as well as letting them mobilize their electorate.

There's a reason Harper stayed pretty far away from any sort of cultural war messaging.

[beesley]

https://twitter.com/JPTasker/status/1488930514123829254?t=SLsXEr3S-Hy2yyU-ceqYxA...

Here we go!

[2952-0-0]

Erin O'Toole is officially out. 73 to 45.

[beesley]

A bigger margin that was expected, based on what people are saying.

Let's hope he's not the last Conservative leader to be no confidenced this year.

[MaxQue]

Erin O'Toole is officially out. 73 to 45.

RIP Conservative Party. Reform is back.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Great News !! Poillievre For Leader

[OSR stands with Israel]

Erin O'Toole is officially out. 73 to 45.

RIP Conservative Party. Reform Harper Era Toryism is back.

FTFY