Canada General Discussion (2019-)

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

As if the situation wasn't embarrassing enough, now the US is "offering assistance" like we're Kazakhstan and they're Russia or something.

What kind of assistance can US provide???

From what I've heard the offer was for heavy moving equipment to remove the trucks plus manpower from the DHS.

At the moment it sounds like the Windsor Police, OPP and RCMP are going to try removing them sometime today.

We've seen more substantive movement towards normalcy in the last two weeks in this country than we've seen in the whole pandemic. Ford is just the latest in a series of politicians shifting their approach to COVID. 

The narrative that the trucker protests would be ineffective or even prolong restrictions is looking more and more like wishcasting.

In terms of dominating the conversation and making the end of mandates and restrictions a key issue they might be one of the most successful protest movements in recent memory. I'd imagine protesters and governments all around the world are taking notes of the power multiplying effect of trucks and industrial equipment, as well as the pressure exerted by strategic blockades at key ports of entry.

Of course every level of government is going to throw the book at the protesters themselves as soon as they have the ability but in terms of achieving stated political goals they're already ahead of BLM

[2952-0-0]

To the bolded, so much hate. If he's not willing to take the heat on this to do what he thinks is right, he's welcome to resign and the Liberal Party can pick a better leader.

Unless Trudeau thinks Manitoba should become its own sovereign state, getting the Canadian international border in Manitoba back open is his government's responsibility. The protests in Ottawa are different because there's no international border aspect of it and Ottawa is Ontarian provincial authority unless we're talking federal buildings and avenues where Ontario has no jurisdiction. Blocking the bridge at Windsor crossing to Detroit, that's federal responsibility again, not Ontario.

The argument here is that while the federal government controls the border itself, the blockade is on the highway leading up to the border, which is under provincial jurisdiction. This is, of course, a cop out, since RCMP were used to break up blockades of railways and pipelines by indigenous rights activists. One wonders what caused this difference in action by the same player.

In terms of dominating the conversation and making the end of mandates and restrictions a key issue they might be one of the most successful protest movements in recent memory. I'd imagine protesters and governments all around the world are taking notes of the power multiplying effect of trucks and industrial equipment, as well as the pressure exerted by strategic blockades at key ports of entry.

Of course every level of government is going to throw the book at the protesters themselves as soon as they have the ability but in terms of achieving stated political goals they're already ahead of BLM

These mandates were on their way out well before any convoy set off, and the organizers planned the timing of the convoy so that they could claim victory for what was already decided. There's evidence they planned a convoy to blockade Ottawa back in 2019, and would have found another grievance without any pandemic. When the convoy first arrived in Ottawa, the polls indicated that a slim majority of Canadians were willing to listen to the supposed demand of removing mandates. Since then, most Canadians have mentally separated the mandates and the blockades. "I want restrictions to end ASAP, but those running riot in Ottawa and elsewhere are anti-democratic hooligans" is the most common sentiment, the one that the Conservative Party leadership is now belatedly latching onto. You're right that in the future, governments will severely tighten up security at major infrastructure chokepoints, or add redundancy. I expect Wellington Street in Ottawa, and similar other locations worldwide to be pedestrianized - if people want to protest, they're free to, but only on foot.

[2952-0-0]

Not a capital city, but kind of happened in Seattle 18 months ago. Minus the ex-military part. I know how the left would've reacted if military got deployed.

"...but what about..."

Yes, the government lost control over parts of downtown Seattle. But, it wasn't an armed group led by ex-military personnel who had the stated aim of replacing Trump (the democratically elected leader) and Congress with an unelected junta that would override all government authority across the nation, nor did its supporters blockade or harass major infrastructure points like border checkpoints, airports, and the like.

The analogy for this is late 19th/early 20th century labor actions that intended to grind society to a halt to achieve what they wanted that workers' rights activists mythologize over. And just like those instances, the state's about to come in.

The difference here, like on January 6 in Washington, is that the organizers of the convoy seek (or sought, before they realized they weren't getting their way) to overturn a constitutional democratic order so they could monopolize power for themselves. The state is not "coming in" any more than rioters on January 6 are being prosecuted.

[Benjamin Frank]

In terms of dominating the conversation and making the end of mandates and restrictions a key issue they might be one of the most successful protest movements in recent memory. I'd imagine protesters and governments all around the world are taking notes of the power multiplying effect of trucks and industrial equipment, as well as the pressure exerted by strategic blockades at key ports of entry.

This isn't directed at you personally, but there does seem to be a woeful lack of knowledge of history from many people all over (including me at times, no doubt.)

This multiplying effect of trucks is nothing new, as you seem to be suggesting here.  

Although the Ottawa and southern Alberta police, and I guess, the Oshawa police force were caught off guard, other police forces in Canada knew how to keep the truckers from stopping.  The reason is that this is nothing new.  Security forces have had to deal with these things before.  I doubt it was new even then, but this is from 25 years ago:

As Tony Blair returned nine days ago from the UN special assembly in New York, he confided that the French president, Jacques Chirac, had assured him his government would not crumble in the face of protests by its lorry drivers. The revolt against petrol duty would not spread across Europe.

As Blair was speaking, a small group of self-described nobodies were driving slowly through the darkness towards the Shell Stanlow refinery at Ellesmere Port and a date with a history. The convoy had been born out of a meeting convened by Brynle Williams, a loquacious sheep and beef farmer from Cilcain, north Wales.

The meeting, at Ruthin cattle market the previous Monday, had been addressed by politicians including Peter Rogers, a Conservative member of the Welsh assembly. Mr Rogers became a farming hero after he addressed farmers picketing Irish lorries at Holyhead in November 1997 in a protest that spawned the militant farmers' movement.

As Tony Blair returned nine days ago from the UN special assembly in New York, he confided that the French president, Jacques Chirac, had assured him his government would not crumble in the face of protests by its lorry drivers. The revolt against petrol duty would not spread across Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2000/sep/16/uk.labour

Slightly different, but I imagine that the first time a 'group of nobodies' played a significant role in history with transportation is when the Russian train conductors refused to take General Kornilov and his troops to Moscow to stage a counterrevolution.

The reason I think it hurts that people don't know history, is I think it causes people to overreact that everything is a 'crisis' that needs to be stopped before it sets a precedent.

Not related to this here, but there are many who seem to think that left wing 'cancel culture' is something new.  This is about the tv show (version) of Amos 'N' Andy:

This time, the NAACP mounted a formal protest almost as soon as the television version began, describing the show as "a gross libel of the Negro and distortion of the truth", and that pressure was considered a primary factor in the show's cancellation, even though it finished at #13 in the 1951–1952 Nielsen ratings and at #25 in 1952–1953 Blatz was targeted as well, finally discontinuing its advertising support in June 1953.  

(Blatz Brewing was the show's sponsor.)

And then:
The show was widely repeated in syndicated reruns until 1966 when, in an unprecedented action for network television at that time, CBS finally gave in to pressure from the NAACP and the growing civil rights movement and withdrew the program. It was pulled from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's television network, which had been broadcasting it for almost a decade. The series was not be seen on American television regularly for 46 more years. The television show has been available in bootleg VHS and DVD sets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_%27n%27_Andy

[Middle-aged Europe]

Doug Ford has announced that he will remove the vaccine passport system from Ontario "very soon".

History has taught us that appeasement makes the aggressor only more aggressive. Ford needs to set an example in order to create a credible deterrence to prevent future transgressions.

So are you guys planning on canceling Nord Stream 2 when the Russians invade Ukraine?

I'm not the German government. I'd support cancelling Nord Stream, yes. But like I said, I'm probably the wrong person to be adressed in this matter.

Doug Ford has announced that he will remove the vaccine passport system from Ontario "very soon".

History has taught us that appeasement makes the aggressor only more aggressive. Ford needs to set an example in order to create a credible deterrence to prevent future transgressions.

Are you suggesting that the proper response would be to punish everyone with more lockdowns?

I think you're using a straw man fallacy here. But to answer your question... no, I'm not suggesting that.

Doug Ford has announced that he will remove the vaccine passport system from Ontario "very soon".

History has taught us that appeasement makes the aggressor only more aggressive. Ford needs to set an example in order to create a credible deterrence to prevent future transgressions.

Are you suggesting that the proper response would be to punish everyone with more lockdowns?

COVID policy ought to not to be controlled by what is or isn't "appeasement". It ought to be premised on what is likely to work if enacted and everyone abided by it, checked by how effective it would most likely be at its goals.

DC Al Fine had suggested that Doug Ford's announcement to end Ontario's vaccine passport was a direct result and success of the so-called "Freedom Convoy". If that was the case I doubt that the decision to end the passport meets the criteria put forward here by you. In a democracy, government policy can't and shouldn't be dictated by a few thousand people - many of them by all accounts right-wing extremists - who are threatening to shut down US-Canadian trade through the use of illegal means.

If the end of the vaccine passport wasn't a direct result of the protests then the timing of the announcement has been very unfortunate and Ford should have waited with it until after the so-called "Freedom Convoy" has been discontinued.

[T'Chenka]

Ford planning to end "most restrictions" "very soon" has nothing to do with the occupation. It's to do with omicron.

[2952-0-0]

The police in Windsor are giving out paper flyers stating that the emergency measures come into effect at midnight. They're not making any move as of yet.

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

Well, there ya go. In about two hours, we're likely gonna start seeing the use of force. It's high time we put this nonsense to an end - but frankly, we didn't have to get to this situation.

I'm feeling more vindicated than ever in the strong view I've held since the start of Omicron - vaccine mandates can no longer be used coercively. We have one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, yet are more paranoid about "anti-vaxxers" than arguably any other country. Our government(s) spent six months tightening the screws on a fringe minority, who have only become more hard-wired and unhinged, and they've lost their sense. These people are out on the Ambassador Bridge thinking they have nothing to lose, even as they're threatened with force.

Vaccine mandates did increase vaccination rates at first, but the people who have convinced themselves that they shouldn't get vaccinated, simply will not. Vaccine mandates as a coercive tool have exhausted their benefits, and are now having costs. We've been hearing throughout the Omicron wave that we have to learn to live with COVID - not from anti-vaxxers and right wing hacks, but from people like Bonnie Henry, Kieran Moore, and Theresa Tam. If the advice from the medical experts, the moves from premiers, the pressure from the opposition, the dissent from caucus, and the unbelievable levels of social unrest don't convince the PM and his Cabinet to pursue a gradual but dedicated transition away from the current federal measures, then Trudeau is more out of touch than I ever imagined.

[2952-0-0]

The most draconian proposal was from Lego, who wanted to tax all unvaccinated people. It would have opened a really bad can of worms. The tax agency would have the power to access medical files: which idiot thought of that?

In any case, the trend all around the world is to move towards relaxing restrictions. Even China, which is still stuck in 2020, is quietly acknowledging that its border restrictions will have to be relaxed starting from 2023.

Whichever public health restrictions that remain will either be quietly revoked or become dead due to low compliance. I myself no longer care about wearing a mask when I'm on the treadmill at the gym. I'll be really shocked if there are any restrictions other than entry requirements for foreigners after Easter.

Half an hour left before the moment of truth.

[T'Chenka]

The most draconian proposal was from Lego, who wanted to tax all unvaccinated people. It would have opened a really bad can of worms. The tax agency would have the power to access medical files: which idiot thought of that?

In any case, the trend all around the world is to move towards relaxing restrictions. Even China, which is still stuck in 2020, is quietly acknowledging that its border restrictions will have to be relaxed starting from 2023.

Whichever public health restrictions that remain will either be quietly revoked or become dead due to low compliance. I myself no longer care about wearing a mask when I'm on the treadmill at the gym. I'll be really shocked if there are any restrictions other than entry requirements for foreigners after Easter.

Half an hour left before the moment of truth.

Any updates? I don't have Twitter.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Police has started to clear the bridge: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60361533

[Middle-aged Europe]

CBC article has some retweets of footage of what's happening on the bridge right now:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/protesters-ambassador-bridge-windsor-covid-deadline-1.6349424

[Middle-aged Europe]

The Twitter account of Thomas Daigle seems to be a good source for what's going on at the bridge. Bottomline is the bridge appears to be cleared of trucks, but not people, with the crowd actually having grown in size by now. Police hesitates to move against them.


https://twitter.com/thomasdaigle/status/1492629409190268933?cxt=HHwWisCywcKi8bYp...



https://twitter.com/thomasdaigle/status/1492659456328581121?cxt=HHwWgoC-kb_3_rYp...

[Middle-aged Europe]

https://twitter.com/thomasdaigle/status/1492673131676327937?cxt=HHwWgoCztcCThbcp...

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://twitter.com/thomasdaigle/status/1492673131676327937?cxt=HHwWgoCztcCThbcp...

To any Americans reading this: -12C is like 10F.
So yes, quite cold.

[2952-0-0]

On the one hand, it's understandable why the police didn't immediately fire tear gas at 12:01 AM last night. On the other hand, the fact that the police don't hesitate to fire tear gas at much larger crowds protesting legitimate social issues is deeply unfair.

In other news, the Pacific border crossing for trucks near Vancouver was blocked, though the RCMP prevented any further vehicles from entering. The Cornwall border crossing was also blocked by tractors. The time for Trudeau to say the three magic words is coming closer.

[T'Chenka]

On the one hand, it's understandable why the police didn't immediately fire tear gas at 12:01 AM last night. On the other hand, the fact that the police don't hesitate to fire tear gas at much larger crowds protesting legitimate social issues is deeply unfair.

In other news, the Pacific border crossing for trucks near Vancouver was blocked, though the RCMP prevented any further vehicles from entering. The Cornwall border crossing was also blocked by tractors. The time for Trudeau to say the three magic words is coming closer.

I keep laughing at all of these people screaming about Trudeau at the protests. Yes, he's a proponent of restrictions, but all actual restrictions are implimented by each province. I haven't seen any posts about people screaming about Doug Ford, the guy who actually decides about restrictions.

[2952-0-0]

I keep laughing at all of these people screaming about Trudeau at the protests. Yes, he's a proponent of restrictions, but all actual restrictions are implimented by each province. I haven't seen any posts about people screaming about Doug Ford, the guy who actually decides about restrictions.

Oh, believe me, these convoy protesters hate Doug Ford as much as the average social worker or teacher, just for an entirely different reason.

Meanwhile, far-right grifter Ezra Levant is tweeting like he's in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

https://twitter.com/ezralevant/status/1492496515302146051

[Middle-aged Europe]

Meanwhile, far-right grifter Ezra Levant is tweeting like he's in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

https://twitter.com/ezralevant/status/1492496515302146051

Well, there always two sides to a story...


https://mobile.twitter.com/JacobBarkerCBC/status/1492732768333320193


https://mobile.twitter.com/JacobBarkerCBC/status/1492726181346615297

[Middle-aged Europe]

As for the latest situation at the bridge: It's too cold.



https://mobile.twitter.com/JacobBarkerCBC/status/1492756823509807108

https://mobile.twitter.com/JacobBarkerCBC/status/1492780985770991617

https://mobile.twitter.com/JacobBarkerCBC/status/1492781729261801475

[Middle-aged Europe]

The bridge has been cleared, police has smade 12 arrests.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-ambassador-bridge-police-protest-1.6350120



https://twitter.com/KatGeorgieva/status/1492898683825934338?cxt=HHwWhMC-8a7c67cp...

[Middle-aged Europe]

https://twitter.com/thomasdaigle/status/1492910453948919814?cxt=HHwWjMC9kb2J8bcp...

https://twitter.com/EMauroCBC/status/1492917306409766913?cxt=HHwWgsCy-auY9LcpAAA...

[The Right Honourable Martin Brian Mulroney PC CC GOQ]

On the one hand, it's understandable why the police didn't immediately fire tear gas at 12:01 AM last night. On the other hand, the fact that the police don't hesitate to fire tear gas at much larger crowds protesting legitimate social issues is deeply unfair.

I take your point, and many other people have mentioned police reactions to, for example, the G20 protests in Toronto or the student protests across Quebec. But I think we have to be careful against the tendency some people have, to use those examples to say "well police is a lot more violent against left-wing protestors, why are they coddling these ones?"

Those events from a decade ago reflect a pre-BLM reality when the use of violent force by police was more accepted. When you look at the Wetsuweten and BLM protests in 2020, for example, we didn't really see that either - though to be fair, BLM protests in Canada didn't really get out of control. But with the Wetsuweten pipeline protests, there were massive blockades of rail lines, and we didn't see a harsh crackdown. The issue was eventually resolved peacefully and with no blood shed.

[2952-0-0]

Trudeau is holding a cabinet meeting, and he's holding a conference with all first ministers tomorrow morning. The Emergencies Act requires the consultation, but not the approval, of the premiers, before it can be invoked.

An old desperate Liberal attack ad from 2006: https://youtu.be/unNZtCH9Mdo

Obligatory:
https://youtu.be/DeTsQQ22Uwc

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/brianlilley/status/1493069729124257793?cxt=HHwWgsC41cHAubgpAAAA


But according to leftists , Trump was a fascist for wanting to invoke the insurrection act to stop violent rioting in this nation.


When will we see MSNBC and CNN go on a moral outrage over this