Israel-Gaza war

[Yellowhammer]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

[Yellowhammer]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

The horseshoe theory is real especially when it comes to foreign policy

My foreign policy echoes the words of George Washington:

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it, for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements [as of 1796]. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies."

It is your utopian, universalist, neoconservative idea of foreign policy that is extreme and anti-American. Gaza isn't America, Israel isn't America, and taxing Americans to fund petty tribal feuds around the world, terrorism, or regime-perpetrated bloodshed is against the best interests of ordinary Americans.
Entangling alliances so extreme that they threaten to drag us into a general war in the Middle East on behalf of a tiny New Jersey-sized country that does nothing for America is exactly what the founders of the United States detested and warned against.

Those so-called Americans who have a higher loyalty to a foreign country such that they see America as a cash-cow and armory to protect foreign interests should get out of America and move to their favored foreign country.

[Yellowhammer]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

The horseshoe theory is real especially when it comes to foreign policy

My foreign policy echoes the words of George Washington:

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it, for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements [as of 1796]. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies."

It is your utopian, universalist, neoconservative idea of foreign policy that is extreme and anti-American. Gaza isn't America, Israel isn't America, and taxing Americans to fund petty tribal feuds around the world, terrorism, or regime-perpetrated bloodshed is against the best interests of ordinary Americans.
Entangling alliances so extreme that they threaten to drag us into a general war in the Middle East on behalf of a tiny New Jersey-sized country that does nothing for America is exactly what the founders of the United States detested and warned against.

Those so-called Americans who have a higher loyalty to a foreign country such that they see America as a cash-cow and armory to protect foreign interests should get out of America and move to their favored foreign country.

George Washington said so because the US was not a power then let alone a super power . If they got involved in the Napoleonic wars , we’d have been completely crushed and it would have been a disaster for the nation . He also said it because many people were putting the idealism of the revolution over taking a pragmatic view on what our position actually was and his farewell address kept even someone like Jefferson from getting us involved in a conflict that would have been disastrous for us in the 1800s.

Also I don’t support getting involved in every conflict. I opposed our intervention in the Syrian Civil War cause whether Assad or the rebels won was truly none of our business and we shouldn’t have propped either side up . If Iran and Afghanistan got into a conflict for some reason , I’d oppose intervening in that case as well .

I view supporting Israel as 100% in our interests and also the morally correct thing to do

This is off-topic so we're going to take the rest of this argument elsewhere.

[Yellowhammer]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russias-draft-resolution-on-israel-failed-to-mention-hamas-defeated-at-un/ar-AA1ijQVR

Russia actually took a stronger stance against Israel and that is why it abstained on Brazil's proposal.

Fascinating. Goes along with what I have been hearing from alt-news analysts and pundits since they invaded Ukraine.

[Yellowhammer]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

The horseshoe theory is real especially when it comes to foreign policy

Every time I see this term thrown around, it involves reactions to people expressing their empathy for mistreated, bombed or starving people (yes, even brown people — shocking!) and their opposition to the actors committing those crimes, so it probably says a lot more about the 'centrist' people using that term than it does about the term itself..

Israel didnt commit those crimes

https://twitter.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1715481016989630561

[Yellowhammer]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

The horseshoe theory is real especially when it comes to foreign policy

Every time I see this term thrown around, it involves reactions to people expressing their empathy for mistreated, bombed or starving people (yes, even brown people — shocking!) and their opposition to the actors committing those crimes, so it probably says a lot more about the 'centrist' people using that term than it does about the term itself..

Israel didnt commit those crimes

https://twitter.com/Terror_Alarm/status/1715481016989630561

Here is Afghanistan:



Source: https://adamtooze.substack.com/p/adam-toozes-chartbook-30-back-to?


Anyway yes Iraq was a complete disaster but I don't think Israel would handle the occupation of Gaza anywhere near as bad. While I use this example a lot , the reason is our occupation of Germany and Japan after WW2 was a massive success and I think Israel should follow that model rather than a repeat of the occupation of Iraq

Many Israelis feel a nearly genocidal rage against Palestinians (and that feeling is mutual), so no, the occupation would be handled *much* worse and would be more costly in terms of lives lost, at least in relative terms.

[Yellowhammer]

What's the deal with Mescaline's posting style in this thread? Am I missing something? Does he see this as some sort of cricket live update?

Bot scanning the internet for updates from pro-Israel news sources and just copy-pasting.

[Yellowhammer]

I think this whole thing has the potential to cause a serious fracture on the left. You have about a 50-50 split between Palestine and Israel sympathizers, and people are facing serious consequences wrt  jobs, future prospects, and social standing if they are willing to criticize Israel.

I'm enjoying my popcorn as the establishment left is losing its marbles now that the far-left activist wing it has coddled, encouraged and wielded as a weapon for so long (so long as its activism was anti-white and anti-American, but NOT anti-Israel) is turning around to bite the hands that have fed it.

[Yellowhammer]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

[Yellowhammer]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

Without US security assurance and armaments, and without the de facto bribes given in the form of aid to nations like Egypt and Jordan (some of the biggest recipients of US aid after Israel itself) to keep them on Israel's good side, it becomes a much shakier proposition.
Israeli government would certainly have to at least think twice about how they treat their Arab population without their sugar daddy standing behind them.

[Yellowhammer]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

Without US security assurance and armaments, and without the de facto bribes given in the form of aid to nations like Egypt and Jordan (some of the biggest recipients of US aid after Israel itself) to keep them on Israel's good side, it becomes a much shakier proposition.
Israeli government would certainly have to at least think twice about how they treat their Arab population without their sugar daddy standing behind them.

We had this discussion a few pages back. Vosem said that if we cut off Israel, Gaza would be flattened (even more than is already the case I guess) and Ray agreed.

Like I said it's similar to a child throwing a huge tantrum in a store if they don't get their favorite candy. Such things tend to happen to parents who spoil their kids without giving them rules and limits.

Gaza would absolutely be flattened, and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine would no doubt be completed, but there wouldn't be much of anything holding back Iran + the rest of the Middle East from responding in kind, or at least trying to do so. It wouldn't be pretty for Israel, even if it managed to survive.

[Yellowhammer]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

Israel can do no wrong.

[Yellowhammer]

Aww they're frustrated. Maybe they'll send an angry, private text in response.

Exactly.

The $4 billion annual aid is a huge leverage, yet the Biden administration refuses to use it.

'Leverage' goes both ways. Don't think for a second that Israel doesn't have huge leverage over our leaders too.

[Yellowhammer]

Blinken brings a notable shift in US language toward Israel as pressure mounts at home and abroad

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/us-support-for-israel

Effect of the democratic voter base pressure at home, after the correlation was proved with the declining poll numbers for Joe Biden and the return of Donald Trump.

The rhetoric will change towards pressuring Israel more for a peaceful solution, but the actions will remain the same. Israel is too strategic to the United States on an economic and geopolitical level, as their door to have a say on what goes on in the Middle East.

They care about this relationship with Israel way more than with Palestinian non-white lives.

Please stop trying to make this about race, thanks.

This is a literal race war. Race has everything to do with it. "Brown vs white" or "non-white vs white" is a facile and incorrect way of putting it, but Palestinian vs Jew? Yeah, it's a race war between Palestinians and Jews.

[Yellowhammer]

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf

75% of Palestinians view Hamas in a positive manner and back the 10/7 attacks

75% of Americans saw Bush in a positive manner and backed the Iraq War when it began.

Getting your buildings bombed to the ground and your people brutally murdered radicalizes citizens through nationalism, who would’ve thought! Shocking stuff that Netanyahu plus Israeli far-right feed Hamas and vice-versa!

Lol you are truly unbelievable and all your defenses of radical Islamists are completely lol worthy . The fact is the PLO had genocidal goals for decades and completely sabotaged hopes for peace over and over again so it was the PLO. Now they back a group worse than the PLO because what they want is Israel to no longer exist and that’s always been their belief.

Anyway this poll is probably similar to what the German public thought about the Nazis from 43-45 and yeah Gaza just like Germany needs to be depropagandized

Translation: we need to give them the kind of propaganda that I like.

[Yellowhammer]

No, any conclusion in which Hamas does not surrender unconditionally, and agree to implement the directives of the Israeli government, is unacceptable. If Israel is unwilling to bomb Gaza then other countries, or private organizations, should do it, though I think Israel is the country most enthusiastic about this (and also is who the territory belongs to legally), so it makes the most sense.

The role of America and other Western countries should be shutting down aid organizations that are trying to send aid to territories under Hamas's control and criminalizing their activities, instead of cooperating with them. Aid can be sent to territories ruled by Hamas once Hamas either stops ruling them or surrenders unconditionally. The Israeli blockade of Gaza was indeed unjust; it should have always been an Earth blockade. Flotillas of private individuals from around the world should travel to Gaza to destroy the government and ideology there, until Palestinian liberationism is crushed under the weight of eight billion human souls.

Something tells me you aren't going to sign up to go fight for your people's cause. You'll just smarmily cheer for a needlessly gruesome ethnic cleansing in front of a dozen other bozo's on an internet forum.

The unashamedly ethno-narcissist (fine I guess, but it's hypocritical because most Zionists scream bloody murder when language half this potent is coming from white people) crowing of people like yourself doesn't do anything to win Israel any support. It's a large part of why I stopped supporting the Zionist cause.

[Yellowhammer]

Israel violating UN resolution by dropping bombs on Rafah.

https://twitter.com/mhdksafa/status/1772780840134553885

No more weapons.

Unless the US has a way to get the hostages back, cutting off Israel won't stop the war, it will only escalate it. Biden knows this.

Israel doesn't need US weapons to starve the Palestinians.

Right, so why give them any more at all?

Because the closer Israel gets to being backed into a corner, the more is on the table.

Unless the US wants to get on the ground and liberate the hostages themselves, they would be very stupid to end their partnership with Israel.

At this point you people have convinced me we should have the same relationship with Israel that we have with North Korea.