Israel-Gaza war

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

So they don't need our money then, got it.

That is money very well-spent to keep Israel restrained and cautious. What you're watching right now is Israel restrained and cautious.

Not even the Israelis think this. This is Hasbara slop for the dumbest segment of Americans (which is, unfortunately, a majority).

We've seen weeks of unrestrained strategic bombing with an explicit strategy of maximizing damage (and, as posted above, an agnostic or even celebratory attitude towards mass civilian death), deliberate targeting of journalists, bombing of refugee and aid corridors they claimed they wouldn't hit, plus an unleashing of fascist settler militias against the West Bank with the explicit backing of the IDF. What greater escalation would be possible beyond literally nuking Gaza and setting up extermination camps in the West Bank?

[Vosem]

Anecdotally I've seen and heard a lot of normies getting less comfortable with Israel's actions. Walking into my apartment building and overhearing my middle-aged Black doorman talking about child casualties in Gaza as a "disproportionate response" is probably not something that would have happened a decade ago. Claiming this is the same "minority" as always is wishcasting.

And Online absolutely can be representative. If not only many mainstream Democrats, but also Piers Morgan and Cindy McCain, are getting cold feet, where is the general public moving?

The initial Israeli attacks were greeted with more support, but this has since gone back to where it was at the start. Alternatively, it might just be noise, with the numbers changing little. The historic pattern with Gallup is that there is more support for Israel among Americans when attacks on the Palestinians intensify, not less, but the pattern with YouGov is basically that there's never any change ever.

My own impression is that among normies I've heard very little impression (in general, it feels like interest among normies peaked in like 2014 and is since down), but my online techbro circles have gone from "don't care, know nothing" to "rabidly pro-Israel". (Seeing this happen to people I met at a festival over the summer has been sort of funny). People that I went to law school with -- who I would not consider normies -- are very polarized, with those who might've been pro-Sanders for Palestine, those for Warren splitting maybe 2:1 in favor of Palestine, and everyone else pro-Israel.

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

So they don't need our money then, got it.

That is money very well-spent to keep Israel restrained and cautious. What you're watching right now is Israel restrained and cautious.

So you're saying if Israel doesn't get our money they'll throw a tantrum and murder even more children? That's how spoiled teens blackmail weak willed parents.

Gross misrepresentation based on data provided solely by Hamas-run bureaus aside, how did you think this was going to go? Did you think Hamas could commit the worst act of anti-Jewish genocide since the Holocaust and not have all hell rain down on them? This is what total war looks like, and Hamas started that war.

And it'll stay a conventional, contained war as long as Israel knows the world's greatest power is on its side - something the vast majority of the US public supports.

You are not telling that to us, you are telling this to yourself.

This is just uncontroversially, overwhelmingly true. The comparisons with the War on Terror are silly because American support for Israel is much greater now than in the 2000s -- because it got more friendly during the Intifada, because usually Israeli attacks on Palestine result in greater support for Israel.

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

So they don't need our money then, got it.

That is money very well-spent to keep Israel restrained and cautious. What you're watching right now is Israel restrained and cautious.

So you're saying if Israel doesn't get our money they'll throw a tantrum and murder even more children? That's how spoiled kids blackmail weak willed parents.

I think Israel needs to do the world a service and destroy Palestinian liberationist organizations, and if leveling Gaza is what it'll take to achieve that, then it should be done. It's been heartening to see democracies respond in very pro-Israel ways.

Israel is a First World democracy and survived without American aid for decades when its enemies were more powerful; if it is holding off in order to preserve American aid, then that would be wrong -- in many ways it would be a betrayal of American taxpayers, both on the part of Israel and on the part of the American government -- and it would be better for that aid not to come at all. But the ideal course of action here is obviously one where the United States and other Western nations pressure Israel to respond more aggressively, and make it clear to those in their own societies that have any sympathy for Palestinian liberationism that hate is totally unacceptable. We can build a world that lacks this ideology entirely; one where there are no American journalists, or university faculty members, or for that matter Palestinians who are sympathetic to the creation of an anti-Zionist Palestine.

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

No, it isn't. A strong argument can be made -- Ray Goldfield is accidentally making it in this thread -- that Palestine is dependent on the United States for its existence. It is pretty easily within the US's power to condition aid to Israel on destroying Palestine and to cut off aid to NGOs which provide any succor to Palestinian liberationism. This would cost zero lives (over the long run, it would certainly save lives, both Israeli and Palestinian ones) and save money.

[Vosem]

We've seen weeks of unrestrained strategic bombing with an explicit strategy of maximizing damage (and, as posted above, an agnostic or even celebratory attitude towards mass civilian death), deliberate targeting of journalists, bombing of refugee and aid corridors they claimed they wouldn't hit, plus an unleashing of fascist settler militias against the West Bank with the explicit backing of the IDF. What greater escalation would be possible beyond literally nuking Gaza and setting up extermination camps in the West Bank?

You could actually bomb Gaza and level buildings without targeting specific floors, and target any military target even if it's also being used as a school or hospital. You could actually systematically target hostile journalists as enemy agents instead of apologizing when they're hit. There is much more that could be done; the interesting question is whether the next Republican President would demand it in the absence of an obvious provocation.

(You could also strike other countries that have provided money to Hamas; apparently Trump attempted to put together an international coalition to do this even before the 10/7 terrorist attacks).

It's very clear that there would've been a much stronger response under a different American administration; consider the rhetoric of the comparatively anti-Israel Republicans! (Ramaswamy is pivoting because Haley's attacks on him for being insufficiently pro-Israel...uh...clearly worked and tanked his favorables.)

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

My own impression is that among normies I've heard very little impression (in general, it feels like interest among normies peaked in like 2014 and is since down), but my online techbro circles have gone from "don't care, know nothing" to "rabidly pro-Israel". (Seeing this happen to people I met at a festival over the summer has been sort of funny).

I've kept tabs on these circles, and yeah, I've noticed the same thing. I think for many it's a proxy for broader hostility to cultural progressivism, which is the same reason they suddenly started caring a lot about transgender issues, and unlike other parts of the far-right they weren't radicalized early enough to be hostile to Israel from a right-wing perspective. A secondary factor is probably just that a lot of them are or work with Indians.

Otherwise, attitudes towards Israel on the far-right definitely do split between "nefarious ZOG trying to control America" and "outpost of Western enlightment against the barbarian hordes", with your circles being the latter (saw several posts applying race and IQ claims to Gaza to claim that the median Gazan is mentally challenged!)

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

We've seen weeks of unrestrained strategic bombing with an explicit strategy of maximizing damage (and, as posted above, an agnostic or even celebratory attitude towards mass civilian death), deliberate targeting of journalists, bombing of refugee and aid corridors they claimed they wouldn't hit, plus an unleashing of fascist settler militias against the West Bank with the explicit backing of the IDF. What greater escalation would be possible beyond literally nuking Gaza and setting up extermination camps in the West Bank?

You could actually bomb Gaza and level buildings without targeting specific floors, and target any military target even if it's also being used as a school or hospital. You could actually systematically target hostile journalists as enemy agents instead of apologizing when they're hit. There is much more that could be done; the interesting question is whether the next Republican President would demand it in the absence of an obvious provocation.

(You could also strike other countries that have provided money to Hamas; apparently Trump attempted to put together an international coalition to do this even before the 10/7 terrorist attacks).

While far more radical of a step in many ways, a unilateral decapitation raid on Hamas leaders in Qatar would be more morally defensible than what's actually happening. I cannot be assed to care about the Gulf monarchies.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

No, it isn't. A strong argument can be made -- Ray Goldfield is accidentally making it in this thread -- that Palestine is dependent on the United States for its existence. It is pretty easily within the US's power to condition aid to Israel on destroying Palestine and to cut off aid to NGOs which provide any succor to Palestinian liberationism. This would cost zero lives (over the long run, it would certainly save lives, both Israeli and Palestinian ones) and save money.

How do you honestly think this would go down, in practice? Are you just entirely unaware of the escalation in the West Bank and the settler militias?

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

I think the likelihood of US and Israeli political interests diverging in a very dramatic fashion has gone downhill now that this far-right government will be held accountable for the massacre and will likely be followed up by center-left hawks less enamored of settlements, but I agree.

[Vosem]

My own impression is that among normies I've heard very little impression (in general, it feels like interest among normies peaked in like 2014 and is since down), but my online techbro circles have gone from "don't care, know nothing" to "rabidly pro-Israel". (Seeing this happen to people I met at a festival over the summer has been sort of funny).

I've kept tabs on these circles, and yeah, I've noticed the same thing. I think for many it's a proxy for broader hostility to cultural progressivism, which is the same reason they suddenly started caring a lot about transgender issues, and unlike other parts of the far-right they weren't radicalized early enough to be hostile to Israel from a right-wing perspective. A secondary factor is probably just that a lot of them are or work with Indians.

Otherwise, attitudes towards Israel on the far-right definitely do split between "nefarious ZOG trying to control America" and "outpost of Western enlightment against the barbarian hordes", with your circles being the latter (saw several posts applying race and IQ claims to Gaza to claim that the median Gazan is mentally challenged!)

Indians in the US are not that pro-Israel at all!

(Also, I really need to write out my response to your question in my AMA thread on whether I feel closer or more distant to the far-right, because this past summer I went to an event which was more-or-less a meet-up for my pretty specific brand of tech-libertarian ideology, and I thought the reactions we got from the hard-hard-right contingent were absolutely hysterical. Moldbug and his cult of a couple dozen people who follow him around to poetry readings walked out halfway through. This guy attempts to write a critique and ends up drowning in his own terrible self-esteem.)

Anyway, I think the first attitude is just, like, an absolutely unheard-of one in the real world. In polling of the GOP support for Israel maybe plateaued north of 75%, but favorables of the Palestinians are just still falling, to consistently below 10% for many years now, and even your very anti-establishment far-right people, like Matt Gaetz or (infamously) Madison Cawthorn make a point of being strongly in favor of the state. You do get people occasionally protesting the foreign aid, but this is always couched in some kind of universalist way (Ron Paul was against all foreign aid, and MTG wants to vote against an omnibus package because she hates Ukraine); actually supporting Palestine is, like, insanely taboo in any circle of the GOP. (Very very occasionally you get Arab-Americans who personally do -- Charles Boustany comes to mind -- but they never talk about it because 15 years ago it was already an insane third rail.)

In 10 years time or so I'm guessing we'll be like the UK with about a third of the country in each camp. A huge proportion of Israel lovers are geriatric. A lot of younger conservatives are anti Israel too, or at least wanna stop the funding.

I don't think these go together. Younger conservatives are more fiscon and it probably is true that more of them want to stop the funding, but they're also more evangelical and just less likely to come from a time when casual anti-Semitism was normal than older conservatives. In the Gallup polls support for Israel has maybe peaked, but support for Palestine has dropped to single-digits and still declining. My guess is that younger conservatives will demand ever more aggressive action from Israel while, yes, in practice being more ambivalent to continuing to fund them.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

My own impression is that among normies I've heard very little impression (in general, it feels like interest among normies peaked in like 2014 and is since down), but my online techbro circles have gone from "don't care, know nothing" to "rabidly pro-Israel". (Seeing this happen to people I met at a festival over the summer has been sort of funny).

I've kept tabs on these circles, and yeah, I've noticed the same thing. I think for many it's a proxy for broader hostility to cultural progressivism, which is the same reason they suddenly started caring a lot about transgender issues, and unlike other parts of the far-right they weren't radicalized early enough to be hostile to Israel from a right-wing perspective. A secondary factor is probably just that a lot of them are or work with Indians.

Otherwise, attitudes towards Israel on the far-right definitely do split between "nefarious ZOG trying to control America" and "outpost of Western enlightment against the barbarian hordes", with your circles being the latter (saw several posts applying race and IQ claims to Gaza to claim that the median Gazan is mentally challenged!)

Indians in the US are not that pro-Israel at all!

(Also, I really need to write out my response to your question in my AMA thread on whether I feel closer or more distant to the far-right, because this past summer I went to an event which was more-or-less a meet-up for my pretty specific brand of tech-libertarian ideology, and I thought the reactions we got from the hard-hard-right contingent was absolutely hysterical. Moldbug and his cult of a couple dozen people who follow him around to poetry readings walked out halfway through. This guy attempts to write a critique and ends up drowning in his own terrible self-esteem.)

Anyway, I think the first attitude is just, like, an absolutely unheard-of one in the real world. In polling of the GOP support for Israel maybe plateaued north of 75%, but favorables of the Palestinians are just still falling, to consistently below 10% for many years now, and even your very anti-establishment far-right people, like Matt Gaetz or (infamously) Madison Cawthorn make a point of being strongly in favor of the state. You do get people occasionally protesting the foreign aid, but this is always couched in some kind of universalist way (Ron Paul was against all foreign aid, and MTG wants to vote against an omnibus package because she hates Ukraine); actually supporting Palestine is, like, insanely taboo in any circle of the GOP. (Very very occasionally you get Arab-Americans who personally do -- Bill Cassidy comes to mind -- but they never talk about it because 15 years ago it was already an insane third rail.)

Oh, it's pretty much nonexistent in elected officials today, but it's the default opinion on, say, /pol/ and other comparable places. It was also the attitude of one Spiro Agnew, though that was a time before Republicans were distinctly more pro-Israel than Democrats.

[Velasco]

 Israel's Ministry of "Intelligence" has officially endorsed a directive that recommends moving Gazans to the Sinai peninsula in Egypt, which is a way to say ethnically cleansing the open-air prison and relocate its hopeless population in no man's land  "tent cities". Times of Israel deems this plan is "likely a non-starter", which is likely an attempt to mitigate its sinister implications. It is not and I'm not sure Biden and the western allies will do anything to prevent a second Nakba
 

https://twitter.com/EpshtainItay/status/1718580314707018001?t=12kdBpz3c347t8vHLS...

[Vosem]

We've seen weeks of unrestrained strategic bombing with an explicit strategy of maximizing damage (and, as posted above, an agnostic or even celebratory attitude towards mass civilian death), deliberate targeting of journalists, bombing of refugee and aid corridors they claimed they wouldn't hit, plus an unleashing of fascist settler militias against the West Bank with the explicit backing of the IDF. What greater escalation would be possible beyond literally nuking Gaza and setting up extermination camps in the West Bank?

You could actually bomb Gaza and level buildings without targeting specific floors, and target any military target even if it's also being used as a school or hospital. You could actually systematically target hostile journalists as enemy agents instead of apologizing when they're hit. There is much more that could be done; the interesting question is whether the next Republican President would demand it in the absence of an obvious provocation.

(You could also strike other countries that have provided money to Hamas; apparently Trump attempted to put together an international coalition to do this even before the 10/7 terrorist attacks).

While far more radical of a step in many ways, a unilateral decapitation raid on Hamas leaders in Qatar would be more morally defensible than what's actually happening. I cannot be assed to care about the Gulf monarchies.

I believe the actual plan from Trump, which Tillerson tried to stop/objected to behind the scenes, was a far more batsh**t operation wherein Saudi Arabia and the UAE were given a green light to conquer Qatar outright, and then could not agree amongst themselves as to what the ultimate status of the territory should be. The idea was not just decapitating Hamas, but decapitating the House of Thani.

No, it isn't. A strong argument can be made -- Ray Goldfield is accidentally making it in this thread -- that Palestine is dependent on the United States for its existence. It is pretty easily within the US's power to condition aid to Israel on destroying Palestine and to cut off aid to NGOs which provide any succor to Palestinian liberationism. This would cost zero lives (over the long run, it would certainly save lives, both Israeli and Palestinian ones) and save money.

How do you honestly think this would go down, in practice? Are you just entirely unaware of the escalation in the West Bank and the settler militias?

I don't think this would ever fully go down because I don't expect there to ever actually be a Republican government so strongly anti-Palestinian that the Israeli state could not restrain it; in practice the likely Israeli goal of this operation is to return Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, not to destroy the Palestinian Authority. But if the PA actually goes away, my guess is that you see an Intifada for a few years, then the underground organizations running that Intifada repressed with just the application of criminal law, and then a return to the pre-1988 status quo. Depending on how far in the future this happens there are annexations.

I don't think there's been a serious escalation in the West Bank involving settler militias even if there have been particular sporadic outbursts of violence. In practice the settler militias and the IDF have very hostile attitudes towards each other. (That said, the stuff I've seen anecdotally from Israelis is a huge surge of support for the settlements. Also a surge in optimism about the future among Israeli Jews but not Israeli Arabs, which is itself interesting.)

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

I don't think it was true ever that Israel was dependent on the US. It may have been true before the 1980s or so that Israel depended on "a" superpower patron for its existence (although hard to say; in the 1940s the chief source of aid was Czechoslovakia -- and indirectly the Soviet Union -- and in the 1950s/1960s it was France; it only became the US under Nixon), but at this point it's just wealthy enough relative to its neighbors that that's not the case. 1973 ended with undefended roads to Cairo and Damascus; since then state capacity in Syria and Egypt has fallen and Israel has become, like, an order of magnitude wealthier relative to them. Israel isn't actually a fascist dictatorship and so could not occupy that area (probably even for a short time, much less indefinitely), but nobody really doubts that it could take it.

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

I think the likelihood of US and Israeli political interests diverging in a very dramatic fashion has gone downhill now that this far-right government will be held accountable for the massacre and will likely be followed up by center-left hawks less enamored of settlements, but I agree.

The scary premonition for Israel relative to US support is Democrats using the power of the state to support particular political tendencies in Latin America while Republicans use the power of the state to support the reverse ones. (I think Biden's State Department openly backing Lula after Trump had openly backed Bolsonaro was really dangerous). That implies that conflicts around the world might become proxies between Republicans and Democrats, and while I sort of expect American progressivism to lose the culture war my guess is that the President will more often be a Democrat.

The saving grace here is that to a large extent American intelligence-gathering has been outsourced to the Israeli state; we don't know to what extent, but under Trump you had constant mini-scandals where Trump would reveal intelligence to someone and the source would be Israeli, which kind of implied that the Israli state is a very disproportionate source of American intelligence. In that case, unless some President and Congress were willing to give much more power to the CIA -- a historically incompetent organization that both sides of the aisle have reasons to distrust and which never recovered from 1970s-era limitations placed on it -- the American executive is going to routinely be more-or-less forced into supporting the Israelis. (There is also American public opinion, which is staunchly pro-Israel and where the long-term trend isn't necessarily even all that clear, but I'm not sure how much it matters. American public opinion hates Saudi Arabia, but we keep supporting it. American prestige-media elite public opinion has hated Israel for a while but really doesn't seem to have succeeded at influencing the broader public in this.)

[Vosem]

My own impression is that among normies I've heard very little impression (in general, it feels like interest among normies peaked in like 2014 and is since down), but my online techbro circles have gone from "don't care, know nothing" to "rabidly pro-Israel". (Seeing this happen to people I met at a festival over the summer has been sort of funny).

I've kept tabs on these circles, and yeah, I've noticed the same thing. I think for many it's a proxy for broader hostility to cultural progressivism, which is the same reason they suddenly started caring a lot about transgender issues, and unlike other parts of the far-right they weren't radicalized early enough to be hostile to Israel from a right-wing perspective. A secondary factor is probably just that a lot of them are or work with Indians.

Otherwise, attitudes towards Israel on the far-right definitely do split between "nefarious ZOG trying to control America" and "outpost of Western enlightment against the barbarian hordes", with your circles being the latter (saw several posts applying race and IQ claims to Gaza to claim that the median Gazan is mentally challenged!)

Indians in the US are not that pro-Israel at all!

(Also, I really need to write out my response to your question in my AMA thread on whether I feel closer or more distant to the far-right, because this past summer I went to an event which was more-or-less a meet-up for my pretty specific brand of tech-libertarian ideology, and I thought the reactions we got from the hard-hard-right contingent was absolutely hysterical. Moldbug and his cult of a couple dozen people who follow him around to poetry readings walked out halfway through. This guy attempts to write a critique and ends up drowning in his own terrible self-esteem.)

Anyway, I think the first attitude is just, like, an absolutely unheard-of one in the real world. In polling of the GOP support for Israel maybe plateaued north of 75%, but favorables of the Palestinians are just still falling, to consistently below 10% for many years now, and even your very anti-establishment far-right people, like Matt Gaetz or (infamously) Madison Cawthorn make a point of being strongly in favor of the state. You do get people occasionally protesting the foreign aid, but this is always couched in some kind of universalist way (Ron Paul was against all foreign aid, and MTG wants to vote against an omnibus package because she hates Ukraine); actually supporting Palestine is, like, insanely taboo in any circle of the GOP. (Very very occasionally you get Arab-Americans who personally do -- Bill Cassidy comes to mind -- but they never talk about it because 15 years ago it was already an insane third rail.)

Oh, it's pretty much nonexistent in elected officials today, but it's the default opinion on, say, /pol/ and other comparable places. It was also the attitude of one Spiro Agnew, though that was a time before Republicans were distinctly more pro-Israel than Democrats.

Oh, yeah, also Jim Baker. It was the default attitude of conservative Americans before evangelicalism; the rise in support for Israel among the American right in the 21st century has substantially been the story of these people dying and being replaced with youngs who either are themselves evangelical or who are influenced strongly by evangelicalism.

/pol/ isn't that American -- remember that the guy likeliest to be Q, Ron Watkins, was actually living in the Philippines. Online subcultures like /pol/ matter if they influence people at Fox News or whatever (or in the Tucker Carlson writing room), but they're not a real subset of the electorate.

[Dereich]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

So they don't need our money then, got it.

That is money very well-spent to keep Israel restrained and cautious. What you're watching right now is Israel restrained and cautious.

Not even the Israelis think this. This is Hasbara slop for the dumbest segment of Americans (which is, unfortunately, a majority).

We've seen weeks of unrestrained strategic bombing with an explicit strategy of maximizing damage (and, as posted above, an agnostic or even celebratory attitude towards mass civilian death), deliberate targeting of journalists, bombing of refugee and aid corridors they claimed they wouldn't hit, plus an unleashing of fascist settler militias against the West Bank with the explicit backing of the IDF. What greater escalation would be possible beyond literally nuking Gaza and setting up extermination camps in the West Bank?

You're not going to get anywhere arguing something as clearly wrong as that. If that chart is correct it doesn't support "unrestrained strategic bombing with an explicit strategy of maximising damage." Gaza City is extremely dense with over 15000 people per square mile. If that was really their objective, over 6000 Israeli strikes would have much much higher death numbers.

There is plenty of room to argue that Israel's bombing campaign isn't sufficiently concerned with civilian causalities or that some other strategy to deal with Hamas is appropriate, but people advocating the obviously false position that Israel is right now intentionally trying to maximise damage does nothing but taint the (already horrible) discourse and make any sort of consensus (let me dream) impossible.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Prayer for IDF Soldiers

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyaukkJQKFo

“He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob — may He bless the fighters of the Israel Defense Forces, who stand guard over our land and the cities of our God, from the border of the Lebanon to the desert of Egypt, and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Aravah, on the land, in the air, and on the sea.

May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.

 May He lead our enemies under our soldiers’ sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you.”

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

My takes on the past few days, some of which could be based on misunderstood facts due to the inherent difficulties of monitoring a fog-of-war situation on another continent:

First of all I think there are three basic narratives for the soft launch of the ground invasion and cyber blackout around it that could be more or less true:

1. The worst is true; the IDF cut internet and cell services expressly to obscure seriously and calculatedly heinous acts that they were planning and that they have since carried out. I don't think this is all that likely, but insisting that it's impossible is It Can't Happen Here thinking and we should all try to avoid it.
2. The best is true; the blackout was a relatively normal form of information warfare in service of a campaign that, on the ground, remained targeted and precise (at least by the low standards of Middle Eastern ethnoreligious conflicts). This is unfortunately something I think is a little less likely still than option 1.
3. Somewhere in between; the blackout had both military and PR purposes and the IDF began the invasion in a way that would shock Western consciences but isn't that out of the ordinary for the collective-punishment-happy Israeli way of war. This is what I think is far and away likeliest.
ETA: 4. The blackout happening was some kind of collateral damage. I don't know enough about telecommunications infrastructure to have any idea how likely I think this is.

So how's the invasion going so far? The IDF has rescued one hostage, Ori Megidish, and might have blue-on-blued another, Shani Louk, if the reports about her being identified from a blown-apart skull fragment are true. Poor show if so. They've definitely killed a lot of Hamas leaders so it's possible that aim is going well. The humanitarian situation in Gaza is obviously awful. There are no good guys on the ground here, even though in the abstract Both Sides Have a Point. In that respect it's nothing new for ~The Conflict~, although the intensity of it is obviously way worse than usual.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/ytirawi/status/1719109388630208882?s=20
Clearly this is about defeating Hamas.

[DavidB.]

Bizarre that there are really people here saying Israel is inflicting "maximum damage" on Gaza. It absolutely isn't. If it really were aiming for that, the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands, not in the thousands still. This proves they're really after Hamas only. Now ask yourself whether Hamas would ever show this level of restraint towards Israeli civilians if they had Israel's military capabilities - or whether they'd show any restraint at all, for that matter. We've seen a part of the answer on October 7th. And exactly this is the difference.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Bizarre that there are really people here saying Israel is inflicting "maximum damage" on Gaza. It absolutely isn't. If it really were aiming for that, the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands, not in the thousands still. Now ask yourself whether Hamas would ever show this level of restraint if they had Israel's military capabilities - or whether they'd show any restraint at all, for that matter. We've seen a part of the answer on October 7th. And exactly this is the difference.

Your dull hasbara doesn't work here. If Hamas had that capability it wouldn't be Hamas and this conflict wouldn't have happened at all. No one is patting Netanyahu on the back for not literally nuking Gaza.

[DavidB.]

Your dull hasbara doesn't work here. If Hamas had that capability it wouldn't be Hamas and this conflict wouldn't have happened at all. No one is patting Netanyahu on the back for not literally nuking Gaza.

Your dull antisemitism doesn't work here. Fortunately, most people here are actually reasonable and can be convinced with arguments.

[Pres Mike]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

So they don't need our money then, got it.

That is money very well-spent to keep Israel restrained and cautious. What you're watching right now is Israel restrained and cautious.

So you're saying if Israel doesn't get our money they'll throw a tantrum and murder even more children? That's how spoiled teens blackmail weak willed parents.

Gross misrepresentation based on data provided solely by Hamas-run bureaus aside, how did you think this was going to go? Did you think Hamas could commit the worst act of anti-Jewish genocide since the Holocaust and not have all hell rain down on them? This is what total war looks like, and Hamas started that war.

And it'll stay a conventional, contained war as long as Israel knows the world's greatest power is on its side - something the vast majority of the US public supports.

As a palestinian-American, Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. But Israel shouldn't be raining hell on innocent children. 3k kids killed so far. When the US was attacked on 9/11, it didn't kill kids in Afghanistan

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1718749550305792165?s=20

[NOVA Green]

Surprised that despite the whole "fog of war" scene, that nobody has mentioned that it appears that Israeli Armored convoys appear to have moved into Gaza in force from three different directions:

Sorry images don't cross-over, so any of y'all that don't have an NYT account should consider either getting an introductory subscription or using potentially one of a handful of free stories allowed per month.

Israel has so far stopped short of the rapid and overwhelming ground assault that many analysts expected. But the imagery, taken on Monday morning by Planet Labs, a commercial satellite company, shows a significant invading force: many groups of dozens of armored vehicles cutting through open fields and amassing in urban spaces.

The image provides the clearest picture yet of how far one the main lines of Israel’s invasion has moved into Gaza and the destruction it has caused. Israeli vehicles are seen as far south as the neighborhood of Al Karama, north of Gaza City. Videos released by the Israeli military had previously shown lines of tanks operating near the border area.

Many nearby buildings appear to have been heavily damaged or completely destroyed by airstrikes. Hundreds of craters from airstrikes and shelling are visible, including in homes and on roads, and apartment blocks have been flattened.

The area shown is one of three directions where Israeli tanks and other vehicles have moved toward Gaza City, the largest city in Gaza. Lines of armored vehicles have been seen on the main road running north to south of Gaza, as well as in the northeastern corner of the strip, in Beit Hanoun.

1.) Far Northwest Gaza.... (The initial first reported Israeli movement in force from the initial reports of Israeli Ground Operations in Gaza.)

2.) Far NE Gaza... (Not tons of details here, but would make sense considering all of the bombed out buildings, plus what used to be a major training center for Hamas soldiers, including military units involved in the terrorist assault against Civilian targets, and not just military targets in the 10/7 "spectacular".

3.) Outer SE Gaza... (Hadn't really seen much reported about this before).

Makes sense in terms of dealing with tunnels and securing areas around agricultural farms in Gaza, which was one of (4) major "Israeli Wall" demolitions.

Not sure how far they have penetrated, but pretty clearly Israel likely has enough military capabilities to sever the Egyptian-Gazan border if needed.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/30/world/middleeast/israel-invasion-gaza-satellite-image-map.html

[NOVA Green]

My old buddy Benjamin gets some props...

https://twitter.com/hengenahm/status/1718911687397396661?s=20

[EJ24]

Here's a video of a few Hamas fighters the heroic IDF has blown to shreds, with surgical and strategic strikes, no doubt.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/3579953155572515