Israel-Gaza war

[Zinneke]

It’s always a confusing thing why Israel doesn’t just tear the bandaid off and start conscripting Haredis. Is a reversal of such an ordinance only possible through the Knesset or courts?

Haredis aren't docile, they'll riot and cause a social disruption Israel can ill afford.

[strangerinthealps]

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/reiterated-indias-principled-position-pm-modi-speaks-to-palestine-president-4497010

""Shared Our Deep Concern...": PM Modi Speaks To Palestinian President"

Modi came out strong for Israel at the beginning of the conflict for mostly domestic reasons.  As time passed, he must have received a lot of pressure from Arab Gulf states.  A key part of the Modi economic strategy does involve India-Gulf states investment and integration to counter PRC.  So after some time, he is pivoting somewhat.  The various pro-Modi Hindi media had been super gun-ho for Israel in the beginning are showing signs of toning it down to align with Modi to now mostly focusing on "watching the chaos in the Middle East makes one see how safe Modi made India in comparison"

It's not as though they don't have their own history with Islamic terrorists...

[strangerinthealps]

I may or may not be right about the time frame, but I am afraid I won't be wrong about the final outcome. There seem to be plenty of people within this far right government in Israel that want to deliver collective punishment on the people of Gaza. These people have openly worked against a two state solution. So what do you think they want to do with the Palestinian people in the long term? They are the same as the people on the Palestinian side who also work against a two state solution because they want to kill every single Jew in Israel. Ben Gvir and his ilk would like to eliminate every single Palestinian/Arab in Israel and the occupied territories. Just because one side is full of far-right bearded freaks who want to eliminate their enemy doesn't mean we have to support the other side's far-right bearded freaks who want to eliminate their enemy. And both sides include civilians within the umbrella of "enemy".

You DO realize that Hamas have continued to fire rockets into Israel this ENTIRE TIME, correct?

I know that isn't exactly the narrative, but how do you expect Israel to discontinue their air strikes when Hamas is still actively firing rockets.

Let me give you a quick lesson on how surface to surface artillery and missile strikes are conducted in the first world. This technology was widely used in the 90s, and can only have improved at this point.

When enemy combatants fire a sorty (rocket or otherwise) then computers and radar collectively identify the point from which it was fired, and immediately return fire before the projectile has even had a chance to touch down.

This is very similar to their Iron Dome technology, and was the basis for the Iron Dome defense.

In Gaza, Hamas largely employ improvised rockets made primarily with industrial plumbing pipe. These and their firing mechanisms are small and transportable. Hamas has spent the last 20 years building an underground command center and miles of tunnels. They use the tunnels to transport the rockets to places from which they will set them up and fire, very often amid civilian population centers.

When Israel detects the rocket fire, they immediately fire return sorties which are separate from the Iron Dome missiles intercepting the rockets.

Meanwhile, back in Gaza, as soon as they fire, the Hamas rocket teams are scuttling and pulling back into their tunnels, using standard mobile artillery tactics with the added benefit of the protective tunnels.

Apart from intelligence-specific strikes against Hamas leaders or troop concentrations, literally all Israel is doing is returning fire against the rockets.

I don't see how you can ask Israel to discontinue their return fire as long as Hamas continues firing rockets at them.

[strangerinthealps]

Israel has had the capability to do that for decades and haven't, everyone knows if the combat boots were on the other feet there would be as many Jews in "liberated" Palestine as there are in Egypt and Jordan (virtually none).

Another thing everyone knows is true is that if in 6 months half of Gaza's population is dead, I'll be like "damn, I was very wrong" and if that isn't true, you'll still be an anti-Zionist and will have not changed your views on the issue at all.  And in a few years when the next group of terrorists does enough terrorism to get a response, you'll be singing about how this time they'll really get the genocide going.

Gaza's population has grown from less than a million to 2.4 million in the last 20 years, with Israel providing the bulk of their utilities and resources.

If they are attempting genocide, they are doing a piss poor job of it.

I am certainly not defending every action that the Israelis have taken, but if they wanted to eliminate the Palestinians, they have certainly had the means to do so for a very long time.

It would be far easier than their current operations in Gaza to just bring in the bombers and carpet bomb the entire strip, leveling every single structure there.

Yet they haven't.

Yet that is what they are accused of doing.

[Zinneke]

What's the deal with Mescaline's posting style in this thread? Am I missing something? Does he see this as some sort of cricket live update?

[CumbrianLefty]

Tbh if anything I am more bothered about the poster spamming us jaichind in Ukraine thread style.

[Lief 🗽]

BBC is finally reporting this responsibly, which is nice to see. The NYT today also finally apologized for blaming Israel for blowing up a hospital and killing 500 people.
https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1716456470877725055?s=46&t=o2RmfeV6yYJk03d...

[jaichind]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-23/has-israel-invaded-gaza-yet-hostages-and-hezbollah-force-rethink-of-ground-war

"Hostages and Hezbollah Force Israel to Rethink Gaza Ground War"

People familiar with the discussions of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s war cabinet say the pressure comes from numerous concerns: fear that Hezbollah in Lebanon will enter from the north with its missiles, the fate of some 200 hostages in Gaza, and the risk of Israeli military casualties.

[Helsinkian]

Israeli military analyst: The legitimization window is closing quickly the longer Israel waits (CNN, Youtube)

Reminds me a bit of the July Crisis of 1914. Had Austria-Hungary acted immediately by invading Serbia right after the Sarajevo assassination, they might have gotten away with it without a world war. Russia had already thrown the Serbian cause under the bus once in 1908 when they had recognised Bosnia's annexation into Austria-Hungary. But in 1914 Vienna waited a month before taking action, and by that point Russia had decided to stand with Serbia, and France had decided to stand with Russia.

[Yellowhammer]

What's the deal with Mescaline's posting style in this thread? Am I missing something? Does he see this as some sort of cricket live update?

Bot scanning the internet for updates from pro-Israel news sources and just copy-pasting.

[Silent Hunter]

Gaza's population has grown from less than a million to 2.4 million in the last 20 years, with Israel providing the bulk of their utilities and resources.

Partly that's because poverty with decent medical provision tends to lead to increased birth rates.

[strangerinthealps]

Gaza's population has grown from less than a million to 2.4 million in the last 20 years, with Israel providing the bulk of their utilities and resources.

Partly that's because poverty with decent medical provision tends to lead to increased birth rates.

I'm not assigning causality, just pointing out that is the opposite of genocide.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What's the deal with Mescaline's posting style in this thread? Am I missing something? Does he see this as some sort of cricket live update?

That's pretty much his entire posting history, which I've noted before. Best thing is to just put him on ignore.

[philly09]

Two more hostages freed

https://twitter.com/gabegutierrez/status/1716530485617189235

[Middle-aged Europe]

What's the deal with Mescaline's posting style in this thread? Am I missing something? Does he see this as some sort of cricket live update?

He's trying to putting the fun back in "funeral".

[Jingizu]

What's the deal with Mescaline's posting style in this thread? Am I missing something? Does he see this as some sort of cricket live update?

Well, there are plenty of Ashes to compete for now…

[prag_prog]

This whole thread is so sad...

https://twitter.com/dpatrikarakos/status/1716424589440413974

[Vosem]

https://twitter.com/SALHACHIMI/status/1716482966124155291

Peace with Saudi Arabia might still be on.

Essentially every public statement made by the Israeli government in Hebrew implies or outright states that they're going into Gaza and the only things left to decide are timing and the objectives beyond "destroying Hamas" (whether that means full reoccupation, forcibly installing the PLO, or asking a foreign coalition to be the occupiers -- latter seems unlikely as no one wants it).

Unserious meme suggestion: if Jordan and Egypt don't want them, and independence is a non-starter, maybe Gaza should become a Saudi exclave? No Jewish political control, all local political factions ruthlessly suppressed, lots of educational and economic opportunities opened for Palestinians by attaching them to a country with a developed-world standard of living. (Yes, this has many obvious problems -- the most obvious being that not all Palestinians are Muslim and even most Muslim Palestinians would not be enthusiastic about becoming part of Saudi Arabia -- but I don't think it's any more ridiculous or less realistic than the pre-1967 three-state solution, and people still talk about that.)

[emailking]

I'm watching Golda right now.

[Sbane]

I may or may not be right about the time frame, but I am afraid I won't be wrong about the final outcome. There seem to be plenty of people within this far right government in Israel that want to deliver collective punishment on the people of Gaza. These people have openly worked against a two state solution. So what do you think they want to do with the Palestinian people in the long term? They are the same as the people on the Palestinian side who also work against a two state solution because they want to kill every single Jew in Israel. Ben Gvir and his ilk would like to eliminate every single Palestinian/Arab in Israel and the occupied territories. Just because one side is full of far-right bearded freaks who want to eliminate their enemy doesn't mean we have to support the other side's far-right bearded freaks who want to eliminate their enemy. And both sides include civilians within the umbrella of "enemy".

You DO realize that Hamas have continued to fire rockets into Israel this ENTIRE TIME, correct?

I know that isn't exactly the narrative, but how do you expect Israel to discontinue their air strikes when Hamas is still actively firing rockets.

Let me give you a quick lesson on how surface to surface artillery and missile strikes are conducted in the first world. This technology was widely used in the 90s, and can only have improved at this point.

When enemy combatants fire a sorty (rocket or otherwise) then computers and radar collectively identify the point from which it was fired, and immediately return fire before the projectile has even had a chance to touch down.

This is very similar to their Iron Dome technology, and was the basis for the Iron Dome defense.

In Gaza, Hamas largely employ improvised rockets made primarily with industrial plumbing pipe. These and their firing mechanisms are small and transportable. Hamas has spent the last 20 years building an underground command center and miles of tunnels. They use the tunnels to transport the rockets to places from which they will set them up and fire, very often amid civilian population centers.

When Israel detects the rocket fire, they immediately fire return sorties which are separate from the Iron Dome missiles intercepting the rockets.

Meanwhile, back in Gaza, as soon as they fire, the Hamas rocket teams are scuttling and pulling back into their tunnels, using standard mobile artillery tactics with the added benefit of the protective tunnels.

Apart from intelligence-specific strikes against Hamas leaders or troop concentrations, literally all Israel is doing is returning fire against the rockets.

I don't see how you can ask Israel to discontinue their return fire as long as Hamas continues firing rockets at them.

Not sure why you posted this in response to my post. I have no issues with Israel defending itself. I do have a problem with statements like “there are no civilians in Gaza”. I do have a problem with Israel denying food and water to the Gazans. I do have a problem with the apartheid state set up in the West Bank that is continually expanding with more and more settlers. Israel is stepping up its bombing campaign and we will see how it evolves. Looks like US diplomacy might be helping in ramping down the response by Israel. Hope it continues to force Israel to stick to a proportional response. They should have started by assassinating the hamas leaders living the good life in Qatar before bombing civilian areas in Gaza with white phosphorus.

Also do you have a source on Israel only bombing Hamas leadership or troops/ returning fire on the rockets fired from Gaza?

[Sbane]

Gaza's population has grown from less than a million to 2.4 million in the last 20 years, with Israel providing the bulk of their utilities and resources.

Partly that's because poverty with decent medical provision tends to lead to increased birth rates.

I'm not assigning causality, just pointing out that is the opposite of genocide.

The current leadership and especially the far right groups within it would do it if they could get away with it. Look at what they are doing to the people of the West Bank. Their goal is to annex all of the land of the West Bank and they aren't even quiet about it. What are they going to do with all the Palestinians already living there?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Israeli military analyst: The legitimization window is closing quickly the longer Israel waits (CNN, Youtube)

Reminds me a bit of the July Crisis of 1914. Had Austria-Hungary acted immediately by invading Serbia right after the Sarajevo assassination, they might have gotten away with it without a world war. Russia had already thrown the Serbian cause under the bus once in 1908 when they had recognised Bosnia's annexation into Austria-Hungary. But in 1914 Vienna waited a month before taking action, and by that point Russia had decided to stand with Serbia, and France had decided to stand with Russia.

This is starting to seriously concern me. If they dawdle too long about going in, it'll be a massive clusterf**k, and if they never go in, this whole thing will have essentially been for nothing (and Hamas will inevitably do something like the initial attack again in a few years anyway, and Israel will inevitably respond with collective-punishment-oriented shock and awe again, and and and...).

[NOVA Green]

People need to be fired at the BBC and Reuters. Synagogues and embassies across the Middle East are being attacked because of their fake reporting.

Well tbf for pretty much all journalistic agencies it is really hard to get the kind of real time reporting, boots on the ground, etc... from Gaza.

1.) The main Communications Tower in Gaza was taken down on Day 1 by an Israeli airstrike after the horrific Hamas assault on overwhelmingly civilian targets in Southern Israel.

2.) The main power plant ran out of Diesel which would run through Israel into Gaza, so electricity is extremely lacking, although granted battery power can last for short term for journalists covering events on the ground in Gaza.

3.) Getting international journalists into Gaza itself is virtually impossible...

I can't imagine any coming from the Israeli border, unless they are embeds with the mooted Israeli large-scale invasion consisting of (1-2) armored brigades and then (2-3) other brigades in the North, (1-2) other brigades in South.

The only way for a foreign journalist to get into Gaza today would be from the Egyptian side of the border, which I don't see either, unless it comes with a Humanitarian Aid Convoy.

4.) Media outlets are extremely limited in terms of their resources in Gaza, even likely lacking local "stringers" at the current time of the growing Humanitarian crisis, so difficult to get any time of the "usual sources" one might experience.

5.) Hence news outlets are instead forced to initially rely on "official statements", and then the most reputable attempt to verify in the cold light of day with a greater range of sources.

Blaming the journalists from a couple Western media outlets for attacks on Jewish targets throughout the Middle East, while meanwhile many of the various authoritarian regimes in power are more than willing to harness the power of state run media in order to maintain a region which is generally lacking in anything considered a Democracy.

I would imagine that even independent media outlets such as Al-Jazeera were much more assertive on their programming topics of the day than the outlets you mentioned.

Lebanon and Turkey would stand out as countries within the region that are generally considered "democracies", regardless of the extreme warts and all.

Washington Post makes a statement on their online edition regarding "Where we get our data about the Israeli-Gaza War".

I get the complaints on many on this thread and elsewhere as to why various major Western Media Outlets were widely criticized for initially reporting the recent Gaza Hospital explosion in a manner which many considered to be promoting Israeli responsibility while also and certainly more verifiably relying on the Gaza Health Ministry for what are patently clear massive exaggerated casualty numbers.

It is also important to recognize that right now operating inside Gaza as a journalist is an extremely difficult undertaking, compared to a journalist operating within Israel where the chance of getting injured or dying on the job is virtually minimal, not to mention there is constant access to things like electricity, food & water, and certainly the internet.

Naturally, this also means we are not really hearing much about the actual suffering of the residents of Gaza at the hands of relentless Israeli Air and Artillery strikes, which all too often turn out not be the "Smart Bombs" of the type Bush Sr. and his Generals promoted during Iraq War 1.0.


"When we’re reporting on issues such as the death toll in the Israel-Gaza war, we use official information provided from the Gaza Health Ministry (an agency of the Hamas-controlled government), the Israeli government, the United Nations, the World Health Organization, the U.S. State Department and other international agencies.

The Washington Post, like other news organizations, cannot independently verify death tolls in the Israel-Gaza war. It is standard journalistic practice in conflicts to report official numbers. This can sometimes mean accounts differ; when they do, we are clear about where specific information came from.

Verifying data is also complicated because the borders to Gaza are closed. Since Oct. 7, Gaza has been entirely closed to outside journalists. Palestinian reporters there have been killed, and others are working under extreme risk."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/israel-gaza-war-news-hamas/

[Vosem]

Essentially every public statement made by the Israeli government in Hebrew implies or outright states that they're going into Gaza and the only things left to decide are timing and the objectives beyond "destroying Hamas" (whether that means full reoccupation, forcibly installing the PLO, or asking a foreign coalition to be the occupiers -- latter seems unlikely as no one wants it).

It appears that we in this thread are not the only ones to have drawn the analogy to Mosul 2018; rather, the comparison has occurred to both the Israeli and American governments:

https://twitter.com/wesleysmorgan/status/1716513077309452370

[Meclazine for Israel]

Alright tax dodgers, back to the 2023 Holy War.

Looks like the USA is gearing up for an escalation in the region, particularly against US military bases.

PBS Hews Hour

https://youtu.be/nZ1VqYHeplo?t=718

8 attacks against US troops in the region. Syria, Iraq bases etc. The US are not just being drawn into the battle to defend against Iran, but in fact, simply to defend their existing interests from all manner of evil-doers.

Hezbollah getting itchy in the north.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-24/israels-northern-town-elders-are-preparing-for-an-escalation/103008576


An Israeli soldier instructs an ABC team to take cover and stay put during the heaviest rocket barrage from Lebanon since the war's start.(ABC News: Tom Joyner)
 
Since the October 7 attacks, this region has seen the deadliest outbreak of violence since Israel's all-out war with Lebanon in 2006.

There have been relentless rocket bombardments, exchanges of gunfire and even several infiltration attempts by Hezbollah militants.

Interesting interview with Joni Erst, R-Iowa, who visited Israel last week. She looked shocked.

Joni Ernst, R-Iowa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsVMmFVzCUc

Trey looks like Max Headroom. She revealed a lot of information quickly without complication. She has a remarkably effective method of communication and speaks so clearly.

The question that they are raising is all about Iran.

And finally, Barack Obama released a five page Instagram Post about the conflict:

Thoughts From Barack Obama

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cywh4YzvftG/