Israel-Gaza war

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Correct, there are no alternatives that do not commit US forces to the conflict, and Israel stopping is not an option.

[pppolitics]

Correct, there are no alternatives that do not commit US forces to the conflict, and Israel stopping is not an option.

That is an alternative.

It's called "Stop Giving Israel a free pass".

In fact, $4 billion annually is a lot more than a free pass.

[Arizona Iced Tea]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

[pppolitics]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

So you mean like this...

[Yellowhammer]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

Israel can do no wrong.

[Yellowhammer]

Aww they're frustrated. Maybe they'll send an angry, private text in response.

Exactly.

The $4 billion annual aid is a huge leverage, yet the Biden administration refuses to use it.

'Leverage' goes both ways. Don't think for a second that Israel doesn't have huge leverage over our leaders too.

[PSOL]

Well, in the event of a regional war we have some sort of idea of how Israeli performance would be. Prior events led to the discovery of the current baselines for actors in and including the states of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and now those in Israel and Palestine on a conventional level.

Not taking into account changes done and continuing today, we can extrapolate with some good chance of a future conflict. I have not mentioned Iran because I don’t consider the works of the IRGC in the past 15 years to be very representative of what Iran fighting a conventional war would look like.

Israel will most likely take the current lessons of this war seriously to an extent and not fall into current mistakes for any other conventional war.

[pppolitics]

CNN — News organizations are assuming a more aggressive posture toward Israel Defense Forces as it escalates its military operations in the Gaza Strip.

While civilian deaths mount and the humanitarian crisis grows more severe in the Palestinian territory, spokespersons for Israel’s military are being confronted by anchors on live television, pressed to answer for the deaths of innocent families caught in the heavy crossfire.

The more critical stance has been particularly pronounced over the last 24 hours, following two blasts at the densely populated Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza, which was established in 1948 when Palestinians fled what is now the current state of Israel.

The IDF said it was responsible for both blasts, having targeted a senior Hamas commander and dozens of other militants.

The killing of civilians — accompanied by horrifying stories and images from the ground — has prompted global outcry, and television news networks noticeably adjusting their demeanor in kind, putting the IDF in the hot seat during interviews that have taken place after the explosions.

[...]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/media/news-critical-idf-civilian-deaths/index.html

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

It's kind of astonishing how hard Israel lost the propaganda war. They clearly haven't handled the transition from 20th to 21st century media very well

1992: 45% of Americans support Israel
2022: 75% of Americans support Israel

What planet are you coming from? Israel only really started winning the propaganda war in the 21st century. The whole narrative which tries to emphasize that Palestine is morally superior to Israel because Israel bombs hospitals and refugee camps has been a dramatic failure everywhere.

I wasn't talking about Americans because Hamas is clearly operating under the assumption that America will always side with Israel no matter what. There are Americans who would still be trying to make excuses for them even if they dropped a nuke on Gaza. Their goal was to create a constant gap between the quietly pro-Israeli Arab regimes and their overwhelmingly anti-Israeli populations and in that they've achieved overwhelming success. Any Westerners they happen to convince are just the icing on the cake.

Though your evidence is pretty weak and even in the US there's pretty clear rising opposition. Polls put support for a ceasefire over 60% and support for arming Israel under 50%, and that was in the immediate aftermath of the attack before the bombing campaign and ground invasion began. It's also worth noting that nearly all of that overwhelming support comes from Boomers, with Boomer support for Israel sitting at almost 85% when Zoomer support doesn't even break 30%. So expect even the baseline "Israel vs Palestine" numbers to shift pretty rapidly over the coming decade as Boomers die off.

The gigantic protests and blockades against Israeli arms are also a sign that the political wind has shifted. Never before have so many assembled in favour of the Palestinian cause from outside the Islamic world. Over time that trend will only increase.

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Hey bud, if I "support" Hamas as you baselessly accuse me of, show me any one of my posts here where I do.

For the record in my case I don't believe you are supporting what Hamas is doing. However you're supporting a ceasefire. So you give them a free pass for what they have done. Like for you they can abduct civilians, rape them, decapitate them and Israel cannot destroy them and some kind of ceasefire should be imposed so Hamas will nicely be able to do the same thing in a few months/few years.


You really don't see how this ceasefire you want it to be implemented is going to make Hamas survive do you?

Literally every victorious war fought by Israel featured conveniently timed ceasefires to allow them to consolidate gains so it would be pretty ironic if they were dealt their worst defeat and then restrained by a ceasefire afterwards.

But regardless, I've got bad news for you: Hamas is going to survive regardless. Israel is incapable of achieving its stated goals. Eliminating Hamas would require years of occupation and counterinsurgency of which they've demonstrated zero capability. Being good at obliterating buildings with air strikes doesn't indicate any ability at being able to occupy the ruins with troops, let alone figuring out which Gazans are loyal to Hamas.

In the short run, the choice isn't "ceasefire or victory", it's "ceasefire now in a position of strength or ceasefire later after military humiliation like Lebanon 2006". Israel can try to implement a favourable and lasting peace settlement while they're still in a position of power, or they can delude themselves into thinking their relative superiority today will last forever and eventually their enemies will be the ones imposing the terms.

[pppolitics]

The more critical stance has been particularly pronounced over the last 24 hours, following two blasts at the densely populated Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza, which was established in 1948 when Palestinians fled what is now the current state of Israel.

The mainstream media has only decided in the last 24 hours that Palestinian lives have value.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

The IDF has a far worse baby-enemy combatant ratio than Hamas does and people are still defending them so...

[Lief 🗽]

Vosem vindicated once again on this issue.

[pppolitics]

Vosem vindicated once again on this issue.

How so?

[Horus]

Vosem vindicated once again on this issue.

Lmao no. More like the msm is going from extremely pro Israel to moderately pro Israel, if that.

Meanwhile Israeli ministers are calling for nuclear war.

[WalterWhite]

Vosem vindicated once again on this issue.

Lmao no. More like the msm is going from extremely pro Israel to moderately pro Israel, if that.

Meanwhile Israeli ministers are calling for nuclear war.

Did MATTROSE94 infiltrate the Israeli government?

[Vosem]

I wasn't talking about Americans because Hamas is clearly operating under the assumption that America will always side with Israel no matter what. There are Americans who would still be trying to make excuses for them even if they dropped a nuke on Gaza. Their goal was to create a constant gap between the quietly pro-Israeli Arab regimes and their overwhelmingly anti-Israeli populations and in that they've achieved overwhelming success.

There has basically never been a version of this conflict before 2023 with any support for Israel from any Arab governments and this time around you have multiple Arab governments cheerfully shooting down Houthi rockets. Over the past ten years, you've seen these go from loudly pro-Palestine to quietly pro-Israel, while populations do effectively nothing.

Any Westerners they happen to convince are just the icing on the cake.

Though your evidence is pretty weak and even in the US there's pretty clear rising opposition. Polls put support for a ceasefire over 60% and support for arming Israel under 50%, and that was in the immediate aftermath of the attack before the bombing campaign and ground invasion began.

I think those tended to ask aid vs. weapons; "should we send ~whatever~ to Israel" polls very consistently in the mid-70s, at the same place as support for the Israeli state. 30 years ago this was in the 40s; this is where my observation that "Israel only won the propaganda war in the 21st century" comes from. All of this support is very new, and it comes from the period when the news media has decided to focus on "atrocities". All the evidence is that this focus has been basically counterproductive for the Palestinian cause.

It's also worth noting that nearly all of that overwhelming support comes from Boomers, with Boomer support for Israel sitting at almost 85% when Zoomer support doesn't even break 30%. So expect even the baseline "Israel vs Palestine" numbers to shift pretty rapidly over the coming decade as Boomers die off.

You know, I've been expecting evangelicals to die off for 15 years, and I've been expecting the GOP to die off, and it keeps not happening. (The actual trend among Zoomers is that they consume far less news; support for Israel being lower correlates with every political position being lower). The world changes and it's just not true that the opinions of the youth are where any nation goes tomorrow. This should be particularly obvious in the US, where you occasionally see really visible youth skews in certain directions (as you did in the 1960s and 2000s) and then the country reliably fails to go down those paths.

The gigantic protests and blockades against Israeli arms are also a sign that the political wind has shifted. Never before have so many assembled in favour of the Palestinian cause from outside the Islamic world. Over time that trend will only increase.

I don't think this matters if people keep voting for governments that provide ever more aid to Israel. I also don't think protest size has ever been associated with political success; I recall the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street going basically nowhere. Black Lives Matter successfully got affirmative action banned by sparking a backlash, I guess, but even that's kind of remarkable: usually people just don't care at all.

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Hey bud, if I "support" Hamas as you baselessly accuse me of, show me any one of my posts here where I do.

For the record in my case I don't believe you are supporting what Hamas is doing. However you're supporting a ceasefire. So you give them a free pass for what they have done. Like for you they can abduct civilians, rape them, decapitate them and Israel cannot destroy them and some kind of ceasefire should be imposed so Hamas will nicely be able to do the same thing in a few months/few years.

You really don't see how this ceasefire you want it to be implemented is going to make Hamas survive do you?

Literally every victorious war fought by Israel featured conveniently timed ceasefires to allow them to consolidate gains so it would be pretty ironic if they were dealt their worst defeat and then restrained by a ceasefire afterwards.

But regardless, I've got bad news for you: Hamas is going to survive regardless. Israel is incapable of achieving its stated goals. Eliminating Hamas would require years of occupation and counterinsurgency of which they've demonstrated zero capability.

You know, except when they obliterated the PFLP and all the decades they controlled the West Bank and Gaza, and for that matter southern Lebanon. For a while after 1994 they were constrained by pressure from the West forcing them into a 'peace process' -- and a huge fraction of the Israeli electorate supported it too, between 1999-2001 an outright majority -- but the thing that's fundamentally changed after 10/7 is that it looks like that pressure is going away, and the US/UK/Germany/France are no longer interested in propping up the Palestinian side. My guess is that within 4-5 years Hamas will become as incapable of challenging Israeli power as the PFLP. (It's funny to see that you've moved past your predictions of Hezbollah attacking as it's become really clear, undeniable even to you, that they just don't have the strength.)

Being good at obliterating buildings with air strikes doesn't indicate any ability at being able to occupy the ruins with troops, let alone figuring out which Gazans are loyal to Hamas.

In the short run, the choice isn't "ceasefire or victory", it's "ceasefire now in a position of strength or ceasefire later after military humiliation like Lebanon 2006". Israel can try to implement a favourable and lasting peace settlement while they're still in a position of power, or they can delude themselves into thinking their relative superiority today will last forever and eventually their enemies will be the ones imposing the terms.

Nah. It's "ceasefire now if pressure from the progressive nexus succeeds" (spoiler: it won't) or "obliterate Hamas, basically everyone celebrates the decision in 5 years". (And the first option is basically "ceasefire now, next Republican Administration forces you to attack Gaza and obliterate Hamas anyway"; as I've been saying in the other thread part of the Israeli challenge over the next decade is likely to be the existence of Western governments which are more anti-Palestinian than they are. Right now this is only true in Czechia and Austria, which don't matter, but there's every reason to think the attitude spreads as "conflict with Muslim minorities" becomes a larger part of every Western culture.)

[Blue3]

When did Susan Collins take control of the White House?

[Meclazine for Israel]

There is already a thread for this.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.3450

You said the same thing in there as well, so you don't need a new thread to give yourself more attention.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Drones, drones and more drones.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-06/drones-flying-over-and-within-gaza/103067280


The skies over Gaza are abuzz with drones. (AP: Ariel Schalit)

The Pentagon confirmed that it had deployed its MQ-9 Reaper drone to aid in the search for about 240 people being held hostage in Gaza.

"In support of hostage recovery efforts, the US is conducting unarmed UAV flights over Gaza, as well as providing advice and assistance to support our Israeli partner as they work on their hostage recovery efforts," said Pentagon press secretary Brigadier General Pat Ryder in a statement.

[Old Man Willow]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

The IDF has a far worse baby-enemy combatant ratio than Hamas does and people are still defending them so...

Except the IDF does not deliberately target babies.

[Blue3]

There is already a thread for this.

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.3450

You said the same thing in there as well, so you don't need a new thread to give yourself more attention.

That's in another forum, which is not about U.S. politics. This is.

[pppolitics]

An Israeli government request for 24,000 assault rifles from the United States is drawing scrutiny from American lawmakers and some State Department officials who fear the weapons might end up in the hands of settlers and civilian militias trying to force Palestinians from land in the West Bank, where violence has been surging, U.S. officials say.

The three proposed tranches of semiautomatic and automatic rifles are valued at $34 million and are being ordered directly from American gunmakers, but they require State Department approval and congressional notification. Israel says the rifles would be used by the national police force, but has also indicated that they could be given to civilians, people familiar with the weapons orders told The New York Times.

The State Department gave informal notification of the sale last week to congressional committees, which ignited concerns and prompted requests for the department to ask Israel tougher questions about how it intends to use the arms. Within the department, officials working on human rights issues have expressed reservations, while those overseeing weapons sales intend to approve the orders and announce them in the coming days, U.S. officials say.

The Israeli police are seeking to bolster their weapons arsenal after officials pledged to supply thousands of weapons to Israeli civilians in at least 1,000 towns and cities, including Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. About 500,000 Israelis have moved to settlements there over many years, which, along with military checkpoints, fences and other measures of the Israeli government occupation, keep the area’s 2.7 million Palestinians living in separate small enclaves.

[...]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/politics/israel-us-weapons-west-bank.html

[Hollywood]

Hamas has essentially screwed there people with the October 7th Massacre, because they woke-up every Jew across party lines.  Even if Biden wanted to stop Israel, he can't afford to piss away the influence, money and support from the Jewish communities around the country.  The Democrats have been boxed-in to a corner, because even the mere request that Israel cease-firing is even offending  the left-wing Jews.  You'll get kicked-out of Synagogue for mentioning it.  

We aren't playing game anymore.  It's good to see it actually happen.  I think it's also time for Israel to send the iron dome system to Ukraine, because we need to exert pressure on Russia.  I'm all about killing our mutual enemies.  If Bibi makes the call for reinforcements, Jewish troops trained by the American armed forces will be sent to fill the gaps.  Some are already on the way.  We'll take it to the end.     

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Israel could nuke, eradicate, and cleanse Gaza and many of its supporters would simply say it was necessary to prevent Holocaust 2...

One side has actually demonstrated in horrific detail that it will attempt to kill every member of the other side the second they get the chance, including babies, but yes, let's make up hypotheticals to demonize the Jews.

The IDF has a far worse baby-enemy combatant ratio than Hamas does and people are still defending them so...

Except the IDF does not deliberately target babies.

Neither did Timothy McVeigh. What an incredible standard we hold "the world's most humane army" to