SCOTUS overturns Roe megathread (pg 53 - confirmed)

[Badger]

What I would honestly like to see with respect to abortion policy is this:

Assemble a distinguished panel of obstetricians, neuroscientists, and philosophers studying philosophy of mind and phenomology and task them with assembling a report with their consensus opinion on when human life/consciousness begins.  

We should agree in advance that whatever their decision is will be binding national abortion policy, with abortion always permitted before this point, and prohibited beyond this point with narrow excpetions.

There should be no national abortion policy other than the basic exceptions are protected and third trimester abortions being banned. Other than that it should be fully up to the states

After all, fetal viability is well known to vary from state to state

[DC Al Fine]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Yes

Eagerly awaiting your response.

[The Dowager Mod]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

What an incredibly ignorant post.

[lfromnj]

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3482047-senate-eyes-quick-passage-of-security-for-supreme-court-family-members/

Senate is planning on passing supreme court protection. Smart move.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3482047-senate-eyes-quick-passage-of-security-for-supreme-court-family-members/

Senate is planning on passing supreme court protection. Smart move.

This should get quick passage through Congress.

[Yoda]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Tell us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage without telling us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage.  

No mentally stable woman experiences a miscarriage thinks "oh well, it was just a clump of cells", and you're disgusting for suggesting that's the case.

I'm flabbergasted that you got that impression from reading that. I've had sisters and sister-in-law miscarry. No one could read that comment in the context of that conversation and reasonably believe I think miscarriage is no big deal.

Edit: Come to think of it, at least two cousins and a couple friends miscarry as well. I'm well aware of how it affects them. I'm also well aware that it never even occurred to the anti-choice ones to have a funeral. Ya know, like one does when someone is murdered.

[Yoda]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Yes

Eagerly awaiting your response.

Cool. One out of a million. First time in my 39 years of life ever having heard someone claim to have been to one. My point is - obviously - that these would be exceedingly common events if anti-choicers actually believed that an abortion was murder. I've still heard nothing but feigned outrage and stupidity in response to this, maybe b/c the anti-choice people know that I'm right.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Yes

Eagerly awaiting your response.

Cool. One out of a million. First time in my 39 years of life ever having heard someone claim to have been to one. My point is - obviously - that these would be exceedingly common events if anti-choicers actually believed that an abortion was murder. I've still heard nothing but feigned outrage and stupidity in response to this, maybe b/c the anti-choice people know that I'm right.

We have a federal fetal homicide law. If you shoot a pregnant woman on federal property and she lives but it kills the fetus that counts as murder. Remember Scott Petersen was convicted of double homicide for killing his pregnant wife. 2 victims, not 1. Its not outrageous or fringe to view a miscarriage or a stillbirth as the death of a baby. Definitionally it is the loss of a life.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Is there a death certificate issued for miscarriages?  (Genuinely curious about this.)

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

Is there a death certificate issued for miscarriages?  (Genuinely curious about this.)

I believe it depends on the state.  

In my native TX, I seem to recall that a fetal death certificate may be requested if the fetus was at least 350g or at least twenty weeks old. 

In PA, a fetal death certificate is only issued if the fetus is at or beyond 16 weeks of age.  A recent piece of legislature was put forth in the State House that would require a death certificate for any fetal loss (by abortion or natural causes).  

[Mr. Reactionary]

Is there a death certificate issued for miscarriages?  (Genuinely curious about this.)

Virginia has certificates of stillbirth I know that. There was a failed proposal this year to give a tax credit in the case of one.

[fhtagn]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Tell us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage without telling us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage.  

No mentally stable woman experiences a miscarriage thinks "oh well, it was just a clump of cells", and you're disgusting for suggesting that's the case.

I'm flabbergasted that you got that impression from reading that. I've had sisters and sister-in-law miscarry. No one could read that comment in the context of that conversation and reasonably believe I think miscarriage is no big deal.

Edit: Come to think of it, at least two cousins and a couple friends miscarry as well. I'm well aware of how it affects them. I'm also well aware that it never even occurred to the anti-choice ones to have a funeral. Ya know, like one does when someone is murdered.

I got that impression because that is exactly what you suggested within your own post. Perhaps you should proofread if you didn't want to sound like that, because it's clear I'm not the only one who saw it.

[T'Chenka]

Fhtagn "break bread with the left, discuss things civilly and be open to modifying your position" challenge

Please. We gotta be open minded to changing each others minds.

[fhtagn]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Yes

Eagerly awaiting your response.

Cool. One out of a million. First time in my 39 years of life ever having heard someone claim to have been to one. My point is - obviously - that these would be exceedingly common events if anti-choicers actually believed that an abortion was murder. I've still heard nothing but feigned outrage and stupidity in response to this, maybe b/c the anti-choice people know that I'm right.

Have you ever considered people like you who would shame them for having a funeral for a "clump of cells" are at least part of the reason we don't see them as often?

[The Dowager Mod]

Oh look I'm a Sea Turtle!
https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1524129432213987328

[Person Man]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Yes

Eagerly awaiting your response.

Cool. One out of a million. First time in my 39 years of life ever having heard someone claim to have been to one. My point is - obviously - that these would be exceedingly common events if anti-choicers actually believed that an abortion was murder. I've still heard nothing but feigned outrage and stupidity in response to this, maybe b/c the anti-choice people know that I'm right.

Have you ever considered people like you who would shame them for having a funeral for a "clump of cells" are at least part of the reason we don't see them as often?

And even then, there is a matter of degree. Stillborn child? Sure. Funeral. Totally right and good...but someone who just had a positive pregnancy test, went through some of the symptoms, and then suddenly had a bloody discharge... is that funeral worthy? I think that would be bizarre and if that is something that is considered a common and reasonable thing in your community, that means that I am not a member of your community.

And because I don't want to start another abortion thread-

How do you think the next few years will go?

1) A reasonable number of states will become both right-to-life and freedom-of-choice. Dobbs v. Jackson is basically Taft-Hartley for abortion.

2) With abortion no longer considered a fiat accompli thing, a lot of people will think that abortion should stay illegal or be illegal because "it's settled",  "it doesn't effect me", or "it's illegal for a reason, right?" Personhood in 2020s goes the way that Gay Marriage did in the 2010s.

3) Eventually there will be widespread compromise on the issue where there is either a limited right to choose, a abortion on a reasonable case-by-case basis.

4) There will be serious backlash and the by the 2030s, we will be back to square one on this.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Which happens first? This page reaching 100 or Roe being overturned?

[Yoda]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Tell us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage without telling us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage.  

No mentally stable woman experiences a miscarriage thinks "oh well, it was just a clump of cells", and you're disgusting for suggesting that's the case.

I'm flabbergasted that you got that impression from reading that. I've had sisters and sister-in-law miscarry. You are either an intentionally offended troll or not very bright. No one could read that comment in the context of that conversation and reasonably believe I think miscarriage is no big deal.

Edit: Come to think of it, at least two cousins and a couple friends miscarry as well. I'm well aware of how it affects them. I'm also well aware that it never even occurred to the anti-choice ones to have a funeral. Ya know, like one does when someone is murdered.

I got that impression because that is exactly what you suggested within your own post. Perhaps you should proofread if you didn't want to sound like that, because it's clear I'm not the only one who saw it.

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. I was dismantling the absurd "concept" of fetal personhood, life-beings-at-conception and abortion as murder. How you try to twist this around as I somehow wholly disregard the pain of women who miscarry is literally beyond me. Acknowledge the possibility in the future that you are misreading something if it seems so outrageous would be my advice. I am not letting this asinine accusation that I think miscarriage is some trivial experience for a woman stand b/c I called some right wing idiot out on his claim that abortion is murder. You can feign outrage and play ignorant (or maybe it's not an an act and you just are) all you want.

[fhtagn]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Tell us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage without telling us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage.  

No mentally stable woman experiences a miscarriage thinks "oh well, it was just a clump of cells", and you're disgusting for suggesting that's the case.

I'm flabbergasted that you got that impression from reading that. I've had sisters and sister-in-law miscarry. You are either an intentionally offended troll or not very bright. No one could read that comment in the context of that conversation and reasonably believe I think miscarriage is no big deal.

Edit: Come to think of it, at least two cousins and a couple friends miscarry as well. I'm well aware of how it affects them. I'm also well aware that it never even occurred to the anti-choice ones to have a funeral. Ya know, like one does when someone is murdered.

I got that impression because that is exactly what you suggested within your own post. Perhaps you should proofread if you didn't want to sound like that, because it's clear I'm not the only one who saw it.

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. I was dismantling the absurd "concept" of fetal personhood, life-beings-at-conception and abortion as murder. How you try to twist this around as I somehow wholly disregard the pain of women who miscarry is literally beyond me. Acknowledge the possibility in the future that you are misreading something if it seems so outrageous would be my advice. I am not letting this asinine accusation that I think miscarriage is some trivial experience for a woman stand b/c I called some right wing idiot out on his claim that abortion is murder. You can feign outrage and play ignorant (or maybe it's not an an act and you just are) all you want.

Imagine not reading your own posts...

[Yoda]

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3482047-senate-eyes-quick-passage-of-security-for-supreme-court-family-members/

Senate is planning on passing supreme court protection. Smart move.

This should get quick passage through Congress.

I just don't understand why this bill wasn't rushed through the Senate at light speed when Judge Salas' son was killed and her husband wounded almost two years ago. Can't quite put my finger on it....

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3482047-senate-eyes-quick-passage-of-security-for-supreme-court-family-members/

Senate is planning on passing supreme court protection. Smart move.

This should get quick passage through Congress.

I just don't understand why this bill wasn't rushed through the Senate at light speed when Judge Salas' son was killed and her husband wounded almost two years ago. Can't quite put my finger on it....

The craziness of the Trump years passed by so quickly. Could you speak into more detail into this?

[Yoda]

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3482047-senate-eyes-quick-passage-of-security-for-supreme-court-family-members/

Senate is planning on passing supreme court protection. Smart move.

This should get quick passage through Congress.

I just don't understand why this bill wasn't rushed through the Senate at light speed when Judge Salas' son was killed and her husband wounded almost two years ago. Can't quite put my finger on it....

The craziness of the Trump years passed by so quickly. Could you speak into more detail into this?

Sure! So in July of 2020, a guy disguised a delivery person came to the door of New Jersey Judge Esther Salas and shot her 20 year old son to death and shot her husband three times, who survived.

From an ABC article on the shooting about a year later:

"The alleged gunman was found dead one day later with a self-inflicted gunshot wound. He was identified by authorities as Den Hollander, who appeared once in Salas’ courtroom months before the attack. The FBI said he had a detailed dossier on Salas and her family as well as the names of several other people they believe Hollander wanted to target, including at least one other judge. In an autobiography published on his personal website, Hollander also disparaged Salas' ethnicity.

Now, one year after his death, which also marks just days before what would've been their son’s 21st birthday, Salas and her husband are advocating for increased protection for federal judges against threats.

Last week, Sen. Bob Menendez, D-N.J., Sen. Cory Booker, D-N.J., and Rep. Mikie Sherrill, D-N.J., reintroduced a bill called the Daniel Anderl Judicial Security and Privacy Act of 2021, which would “bolster efforts to protect the federal judiciary and safeguard the personally identifiable information of federal judges and their immediate families.” "

Salas is an Obama appointee. The legislation referenced above was passed out of the Judiciary Committee, but I'm struggling to find any news of it having achieved final passage and being signed into law.

When this attack happened, McConnell was Majority Leader. I just don't understand how a democratic judge's family being murdered and injured is apparently less of a priority than a couple trump-appointed SCOTUS judges who perjured themselves in their confirmation hearings being made to feel slightly uncomfortable at their homes b/c they are going to take away a right from women. Of course, there are no buffer zones around abortion clinics - or the homes of abortion clinic employees! - as there are around the Supreme Court.

edit:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2340/text

edit:

Still hasn't passed, and Judge Salas is renewing calls for it to be in light of the Senate's absolutely mad rush to shield conservative snowflakes from any kind of criticism

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/judge-whose-son-was-killed-calls-for-enactment-of-security-bill

[Yoda]

Goodbye Roe! This should have happened decades ago!

Why? Are you a female? Do you want the government telling you how to manage your body? Truly?

Or, if you are not a female, how come you think you have a right to tell women how to manage their bodies? Would you like the government to tell you how to manage yours? Truly?

Abortion is legalized murder. Why are you pro-murder?

This "logic" rests upon the belief that a fetus - or an even tinier clump of cells - is a person. There are about a million miscarriages in the US per year. Have you ever been to a funeral for a miscarried fetus? Ever even hear of one happening in your entire life? Eagerly awaiting your response.

Tell us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage without telling us you don't respect women who experienced a miscarriage.  

No mentally stable woman experiences a miscarriage thinks "oh well, it was just a clump of cells", and you're disgusting for suggesting that's the case.

I'm flabbergasted that you got that impression from reading that. I've had sisters and sister-in-law miscarry. You are either an intentionally offended troll or not very bright. No one could read that comment in the context of that conversation and reasonably believe I think miscarriage is no big deal.

Edit: Come to think of it, at least two cousins and a couple friends miscarry as well. I'm well aware of how it affects them. I'm also well aware that it never even occurred to the anti-choice ones to have a funeral. Ya know, like one does when someone is murdered.

I got that impression because that is exactly what you suggested within your own post. Perhaps you should proofread if you didn't want to sound like that, because it's clear I'm not the only one who saw it.

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. I was dismantling the absurd "concept" of fetal personhood, life-beings-at-conception and abortion as murder. How you try to twist this around as I somehow wholly disregard the pain of women who miscarry is literally beyond me. Acknowledge the possibility in the future that you are misreading something if it seems so outrageous would be my advice. I am not letting this asinine accusation that I think miscarriage is some trivial experience for a woman stand b/c I called some right wing idiot out on his claim that abortion is murder. You can feign outrage and play ignorant (or maybe it's not an an act and you just are) all you want.

Imagine not reading your own posts...

Imagine not comprehending my posts and throwing a tantrum instead of saying "my bad"...

[GeorgiaModerate]

CNN has reported that "fetus" is no longer a valid solution in Wordle.

Here's more on that story:

https://twitter.com/DougSaunders/status/1523634240612564992

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3482047-senate-eyes-quick-passage-of-security-for-supreme-court-family-members/

Senate is planning on passing supreme court protection. Smart move.

This should get quick passage through Congress.

I just don't understand why this bill wasn't rushed through the Senate at light speed when Judge Salas' son was killed and her husband wounded almost two years ago. Can't quite put my finger on it....

The craziness of the Trump years passed by so quickly. Could you speak into more detail into this?

Sure! So in July of 2020, a guy disguised a delivery person came to the door of New Jersey Judge Esther Salas and shot her 20 year old son to death and shot her husband three times, who survived.

From an ABC article on the shooting about a year later:

"The alleged gunman was found dead one day later with a self-inflicted gunshot wound. He was identified by authorities as Den Hollander, who appeared once in Salas’ courtroom months before the attack. The FBI said he had a detailed dossier on Salas and her family as well as the names of several other people they believe Hollander wanted to target, including at least one other judge. In an autobiography published on his personal website, Hollander also disparaged Salas' ethnicity.

Now, one year after his death, which also marks just days before what would've been their son’s 21st birthday, Salas and her husband are advocating for increased protection for federal judges against threats.

Last week, Sen. Bob Menendez, D-N.J., Sen. Cory Booker, D-N.J., and Rep. Mikie Sherrill, D-N.J., reintroduced a bill called the Daniel Anderl Judicial Security and Privacy Act of 2021, which would “bolster efforts to protect the federal judiciary and safeguard the personally identifiable information of federal judges and their immediate families.” "

Salas is an Obama appointee. The legislation referenced above was passed out of the Judiciary Committee, but I'm struggling to find any news of it having achieved final passage and being signed into law.

When this attack happened, McConnell was Majority Leader. I just don't understand how a democratic judge's family being murdered and injured is apparently less of a priority than a couple trump-appointed SCOTUS judges who perjured themselves in their confirmation hearings being made to feel slightly uncomfortable at their homes b/c they are going to take away a right from women. Of course, there are no buffer zones around abortion clinics - or the homes of abortion clinic employees! - as there are around the Supreme Court.

edit:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2340/text

edit:

Still hasn't passed, and Judge Salas is renewing calls for it to be in light of the Senate's absolutely mad rush to shield conservative snowflakes from any kind of criticism

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/judge-whose-son-was-killed-calls-for-enactment-of-security-bill

There's too little to extrapolate what Mitch felt about the legislation back then, either way. But I agree completely that it should be brought forward now. How Mitch responds now likely will be quite telling.