2020 Census and Redistricting Thread: Alabama

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

the ALGOP is acting like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Also by Del Tachi's logic there shouldn't be any splits in representation for metro areas that are split between states. You can walk across a short pedestrian bridge from downtown Fargo to downtown Moorhead, but once you cross that border there's going to be different representation in the House, and even in the Senate at that. Also true of Bristol, TN and Bristol, VA which don't even have a river running through them and are so closely linked they have the same name.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Also by Del Tachi's logic there shouldn't be any splits in representation for metro areas that are split between states. You can walk across a short pedestrian bridge from downtown Fargo to downtown Moorhead, but once you cross that border there's going to be different representation in the House, and even in the Senate at that. Also true of Bristol, TN and Bristol, VA which don't even have a river running through them and are so closely linked they have the same name.

Texarkana is another example.

[Nyvin]

The judges are definitely not entertaining the AL Republican's desires to delay the map drawing.

https://twitter.com/mcpli/status/1701294354730565694

[Brittain33]

This feels so different from the effective delay tactics which denied justice through so many election cycles in the last decade. America is becoming America again, with liberty and justice for all… one hopes.

[tschandler]

Federal judges dictating politics is insane.  Similar maps were fine until Democrats couldn't reach the median voter in the state anymore. 

[Oryxslayer]

https://twitter.com/mcpli/status/1701400009160175938?t=1NwuKrbvykTmqiwraCvLvQ&am...


https://twitter.com/mcpli/status/1701401965945634884?t=MbfAzCk3ATwwjvC0supjkw&am...

There's the expected appeal,  Allen was waiting on the lower court. Thomas has procedural oversight for these things when they come from the 11th, but action still requires a majority.  Allen going on his own here doesn't seem ideal from a GOP perspective if they hope to flop Kavanaugh.  Additionally,  direct your attention to the October date: the request goes for the latest justifiable point. So if there is any Supreme Court action, it would further delay resolution to the point of purcell viability and  Alabama getting to use the map the legislature drew.

[Del Tachi]

What’s stopping New York dems from telling their state court to screw itself and passing an egregious gerrymander and daring them to enforce it? You guys are opening up a can of worms lol

I guess New York state law, but this is a federal VRA claim. 

[Del Tachi]

Also by Del Tachi's logic there shouldn't be any splits in representation for metro areas that are split between states. You can walk across a short pedestrian bridge from downtown Fargo to downtown Moorhead, but once you cross that border there's going to be different representation in the House, and even in the Senate at that. Also true of Bristol, TN and Bristol, VA which don't even have a river running through them and are so closely linked they have the same name.

lolwut?  Saying that clear communities of interest should be kept as intact as possible doesn't require believing that we should end our federal system of government.  You are aware that the constitution apportions seats in the House of Representatives by state, no?   

Any good map of Alabama would keep what is arguably it's most distinct geographic community whole.  I have still heard anyone articulate a single reason why the Legislature's map is an illegal racial gerrymander, except for some implicit appeal to proportionality (which the VRA doesn't require!)

[Nyvin]

Any good map of Alabama would keep what is arguably it's most distinct geographic community whole.  I have still heard anyone articulate a single reason why the Legislature's map is an illegal racial gerrymander, except for some implicit appeal to proportionality (which the VRA doesn't require!)

Because it's possible to draw two black majority districts that follow "traditional redistricting principles" in the manner of county splits and being geographically compact.  

Since it's possible, the VRA requires it.   What else can there possibly be?  There literally isn't anything else to Section 2 other than that.  

The original map split up the Birmingham metro, does that mean that the AL-7 district shouldn't have been drawn?   LA-2 in Louisiana split up both Baton Rouge and New Orleans, should Louisiana not have any black majority districts?  

Why put the two gulf coast counties in Alabama on some special, royal platform and ignore what happens in other areas entirely?

[Del Tachi]

Black Mobilians deserve to be counted among and have influence in the community where they actually live, not to be attached to far-flung corners of the state with very different interests. 

Dude, I'm from Dallas, TX and the DFW area is a pretty clear set of communities. In the current Congressional map, Denton, Texas is lumped in with the Panhandle nearly a thousand miles away (TX-13) and parts of Collin County are lumped in with Texarkana in the far northeast (TX-04). If I go 10 miles east of where I am into the Mesquite area, within Dallas County itself, the district goes way off to deep rural areas way southeast of here. (TX-05)

I have very very very little patience for Republicans sanctimoniously lecturing about keeping communities of interest together. It's BS and you know it.

Communities are subjective, obviously.  Ask 100 people what constitutes their "community" and you will likely get 100 very different answers.  There are some "objective" tests for what may constitute a COI for redistricting purposes, and Mobile-Baldwin does very well on these measures FWIW (i.e., road connections, commuting patterns, regional organizations, etc.)

With communities being so subjective, what should inform them?  The best solution is simply to take Legislatures, as the embodied beliefs and opinions of the electorate, at face value.  The Alabama Gulf Coast has been united in a single congressional district for more than 50 years.  It's obviously a region that the Legislature thinks is significant and unique enough to have its own interests.  Under what criteria should a federal court be able to overrule that?  That is the central question no one in this thread can answer. 

And FWIW, I think the Texas map also does a very bad job of representing communities of interest.  But this thread isn't about Texas.  It's about a federal court saying it knows better than the Alabama Legislature about how the state's communities should be divided for the purposes of representation.  That should be a very high threshold to cross, and I don't think it should unless the only reasonable justification for the Legislature's map is race-based. 

[Skill and Chance]

What’s stopping New York dems from telling their state court to screw itself and passing an egregious gerrymander and daring them to enforce it? You guys are opening up a can of worms lol

I guess New York state law, but this is a federal VRA claim. 

He's right that this line of reasoning (legislative supremacy in drawing congressional maps, which SCOTUS just explicitly rejected) leads to a total of like 5 R districts between all of CA/NY/IL, so be careful what you wish for. 

[Del Tachi]

Because it's possible to draw two black majority districts that follow "traditional redistricting principles" in the manner of county splits and being geographically compact.  

Since it's possible, the VRA requires it.   What else can there possibly be?  There literally isn't anything else to Section 2 other than that.

Preserving communities of interest is also very clearly included as a "traditional redistricting principle" and is even one specifically called out in Alabama law.  The courts simply neglected to give adequate consideration to this principle, about which I'm not totally surprised given these are Ivy-educated judges who have probably never set foot in Alabama.

It is therefore not a requirement to draw two majority Black districts in Alabama, given that doing so requires violating traditional redistricting criteria.  When a computer program was given race-neutral criteria and asked to draw more than 10,000 maps, not a single one of them produced more than one majority Black district.  The expert mapmakers brought in by plaintiffs in this case admit that drawing two majority-Black districts was a non-negotiable principle.  To allow such a map to be enacted is a profound misunderstanding of SCOTUS' racial gerrymandering precedents.  

The original map split up the Birmingham metro, does that mean that the AL-7 district shouldn't have been drawn?   LA-2 in Louisiana split up both Baton Rouge and New Orleans, should Louisiana not have any black majority districts?

I think the current versions of AL-07 and LA-02 are illegal racial gerrymanders, yes.  In both states, the Legislatures have drawn maps that pack most Black voters into a single district as a way to dilute their influence.  Under a completely fair map, I think Alabama would have two seats reasonably able to elect the Black community's candidate of choice (i.e., a Black Belt + Montgomery district, and an entirely Birmingham-based district.)  Something like this.  This map would do a better job of representing communities of interest AND increases opportunities for Black representation.

Why put the two gulf coast counties in Alabama on some special, royal platform and ignore what happens in other areas entirely?

As I said, the Legislature has seen fit to keep these coastal counties together for over 50 years.  The region scores well on "objective" measures of community and connectivity.  Why should a court be allowed to throw that out the window when other options exist, like my suggested map above?

Also, I would note that the plaintiff's maps in this case further split the Black Belt, another clearly distinct and important COI.  What do rural Black voters in Marengo or Lowndes Counties have in common with urban Black neighborhoods in Mobile or Birmingham other than their race?  This area should also ideally be kept whole.      

[Sol]

It's interesting, I don't remember hearing Del Tachi lamenting the split of New Orleans by LA-02, despite having strong connections to the area as well. Well, who knows why one split bugs him and one doesn't!

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

If you look at the economic, racial, and health data Mobile is closer to Selma then Gulf Shores by nearly every metric. But certain posters who are against drawing them together seem to have dug their heels in and refuse to budge no matter what is presented so I don’t see the point in continue showing evidence to a wall

[Alcibiades]

With communities being so subjective, what should inform them?  The best solution is simply to take Legislatures, as the embodied beliefs and opinions of the electorate, at face value.  The Alabama Gulf Coast has been united in a single congressional district for more than 50 years.  It's obviously a region that the Legislature thinks is significant and unique enough to have its own interests.  Under what criteria should a federal court be able to overrule that?  That is the central question no one in this thread can answer. 

And FWIW, I think the Texas map also does a very bad job of representing communities of interest.  But this thread isn't about Texas.  It's about a federal court saying it knows better than the Alabama Legislature about how the state's communities should be divided for the purposes of representation.  That should be a very high threshold to cross, and I don't think it should unless the only reasonable justification for the Legislature's map is race-based. 

The gaping hole in your standard of deference to the legislature is that this case concerns fair racial representation, and black Alabamians are entirely excluded from their state’s legislative majority. Seeing as they had zero input in drawing these districts, how can we expect their interests to have been adequately taken into account by the all-white mapmakers?

[Gass3268]

[Brittain33]

It's interesting, I don't remember hearing Del Tachi lamenting the split of New Orleans by LA-02, despite having strong connections to the area as well. Well, who knows why one split bugs him and one doesn't!

It’s interesting, what would make someone take completely opposing positions just because that’s how you favor the interests of white voters in New Orleans (by intervening so they don’t get outvoted by African-Americans) and the interests of white voters in Mobile (by letting them outvote African-Americans)?

[Libertas Vel Mors]

It's interesting, I don't remember hearing Del Tachi lamenting the split of New Orleans by LA-02, despite having strong connections to the area as well. Well, who knows why one split bugs him and one doesn't!

It’s interesting, what would make someone take completely opposing positions just because that’s how you favor the interests of white voters in New Orleans (by intervening so they don’t get outvoted by African-Americans) and the interests of white voters in Mobile (by letting them outvote African-Americans)?

Or, alternate answer, one can have different standards for a court-imposed map that should theoretically represent fair redistricting principles and at the very least be reticent to interfere in something rightfully drawn by legislatures, and the map drawn by a legislature. You could just as easily point out that Del Tachi isn't complaining about the gerrymandered split of Chicago by Illinois Democrats.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I've still yet to see any coherent logic as to why Mobile is absolutely sacrosanct and can not ever be split but it's perfectly fine for the current map to split Birmingham.

[Brittain33]

The constant talk about Mobile is making me nostalgic for the discussions insisting on a VRA district in Brooklyn for ultraorthodox Jews.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I've still yet to see any coherent logic as to why Mobile is absolutely sacrosanct and can not ever be split but it's perfectly fine for the current map to split Birmingham.

Because none exist besides partisanship

[Greedo punched first]

Alabama’s lawyers made a boo-boo.
https://twitter.com/imillhiser/status/1701620261965922432?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle...

[Libertas Vel Mors]

I've still yet to see any coherent logic as to why Mobile is absolutely sacrosanct and can not ever be split but it's perfectly fine for the current map to split Birmingham.

It's interesting, I don't remember hearing Del Tachi lamenting the split of New Orleans by LA-02, despite having strong connections to the area as well. Well, who knows why one split bugs him and one doesn't!

It’s interesting, what would make someone take completely opposing positions just because that’s how you favor the interests of white voters in New Orleans (by intervening so they don’t get outvoted by African-Americans) and the interests of white voters in Mobile (by letting them outvote African-Americans)?

Or, alternate answer, one can have different standards for a court-imposed map that should theoretically represent fair redistricting principles and at the very least be reticent to interfere in something rightfully drawn by legislatures, and the map drawn by a legislature. You could just as easily point out that Del Tachi isn't complaining about the gerrymandered split of Chicago by Illinois Democrats.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I've still yet to see any coherent logic as to why Mobile is absolutely sacrosanct and can not ever be split but it's perfectly fine for the current map to split Birmingham.

It's interesting, I don't remember hearing Del Tachi lamenting the split of New Orleans by LA-02, despite having strong connections to the area as well. Well, who knows why one split bugs him and one doesn't!

It’s interesting, what would make someone take completely opposing positions just because that’s how you favor the interests of white voters in New Orleans (by intervening so they don’t get outvoted by African-Americans) and the interests of white voters in Mobile (by letting them outvote African-Americans)?

Or, alternate answer, one can have different standards for a court-imposed map that should theoretically represent fair redistricting principles and at the very least be reticent to interfere in something rightfully drawn by legislatures, and the map drawn by a legislature. You could just as easily point out that Del Tachi isn't complaining about the gerrymandered split of Chicago by Illinois Democrats.

That only makes sense under ISL weirdness that the Supreme Court just specifically rejected.