UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[Silent Hunter]

As a former Director of Public Prosecutions, it would be hard to make a charge of tolerating extremism stick.

[Torrain]

As a former Director of Public Prosecutions, it would be hard to make a charge of tolerating extremism stick.

Yeah, Dan the Roman seems to have a very Americanised view of UK politics. Starmer's weakness was always going to be "man, he's uninspiring", not "man, he's a terrifying extremist".

And he's probably more likely to lose an election over a photo of him wearing beige slippers, reinforcing notions about his lack of political and personal resolve than shaking hands with a "radical LGBTQ+ activist", or whatever strawman the Mail comes up with that week.

[Dan the Roman]

As a former Director of Public Prosecutions, it would be hard to make a charge of tolerating extremism stick.

Yeah, Dan the Roman seems to have a very Americanised view of UK politics. Starmer's weakness was always going to be "man, he's uninspiring", not "man, he's a terrifying extremist".

And he's probably more likely to lose an election over a photo of him wearing beige slippers, reinforcing notions about his lack of political and personal resolve than shaking hands with a "radical LGBTQ+ activist", or whatever strawman the Mail comes up with that week.

Perhaps or perhaps it has become more Americanized. I see the attitudes in this thread from a lot of older 30 somethings because this is not how politics was supposed to work in the UK. But  those attitudes proved consistently wrong. Wrong re Corbyn, wrong re 2017, wrong re 2019.

Real question is whether 2019 was a one-off or not. But both potential successor cliques within the Tories are revolutionary in their own way.

Team Sunak is the remnants of DC's operation.

Team Liz is probably the most Americanized collection of Tories you will find. Heck she has former Fox folks on comms.

Starmer being unable to control his party is a better sign of weakness for Tory base mobilization + allows a recycling of the Corbyn messaging. It is not mutually exclusive with the uninspiring. The uninspiring feeds the messaging about "who will actually be in charge" which allows for the above+ revival of the SNP.

A lot of the party base and internally has been running on adrenaline since Brexit and definitely fall of 2019 with all those maneuvers. I can't imagine much demand for a campaign and message that isn't built around that. (Ie. unless you had a leader massively ahead in the polls with the credibility to force one I think the pressure for an offensive campaign would be overwelming)

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

As a former Director of Public Prosecutions, it would be hard to make a charge of tolerating extremism stick.

Yeah, Dan the Roman seems to have a very Americanised view of UK politics. Starmer's weakness was always going to be "man, he's uninspiring", not "man, he's a terrifying extremist".

And he's probably more likely to lose an election over a photo of him wearing beige slippers, reinforcing notions about his lack of political and personal resolve than shaking hands with a "radical LGBTQ+ activist", or whatever strawman the Mail comes up with that week.

Hmm how can he go about making his image seem less boring and dull ? take up extreme sports or something ?

[CumbrianLefty]

"Starmer being unable to control his party"

Please, enough. He has excluded his predecessor as leader from the party, rewritten selection rules in his favour and now has a shadow cabinet made in his own image. The usual complaint from his left wing critics is that he is a "Stalinist". Again, this is online stuff detached from the real world.

[beesley]

https://twitter.com/BBCNorthEast/status/1470412680049704966?t=JM0Y1RPFET4noyn1ti...

Anyone here interested in obscure and bizarre procedures? If so, you'll be interested to know that the SNP have control of Moray council after their representative drew a Jack compared to only a 7 for the Tory.

[Torrain]

As a former Director of Public Prosecutions, it would be hard to make a charge of tolerating extremism stick.

Yeah, Dan the Roman seems to have a very Americanised view of UK politics. Starmer's weakness was always going to be "man, he's uninspiring", not "man, he's a terrifying extremist".

And he's probably more likely to lose an election over a photo of him wearing beige slippers, reinforcing notions about his lack of political and personal resolve than shaking hands with a "radical LGBTQ+ activist", or whatever strawman the Mail comes up with that week.

Hmm how can he go about making his image seem less boring and dull ? take up extreme sports or something ?

Oh no, don't do that! That's how we end up with bad ideas like putting William Hague on a log flume...

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

As a former Director of Public Prosecutions, it would be hard to make a charge of tolerating extremism stick.

Yeah, Dan the Roman seems to have a very Americanised view of UK politics. Starmer's weakness was always going to be "man, he's uninspiring", not "man, he's a terrifying extremist".

And he's probably more likely to lose an election over a photo of him wearing beige slippers, reinforcing notions about his lack of political and personal resolve than shaking hands with a "radical LGBTQ+ activist", or whatever strawman the Mail comes up with that week.

Hmm how can he go about making his image seem less boring and dull ? take up extreme sports or something ?

Oh no, don't do that! That's how we end up with bad ideas like putting William Hague on a log flume...

I don't know, a nice photo-op of Starmer free climbing a cliff or bungee jumping might help remove the dullness factor if it seems natural.

[EastAnglianLefty]

It's undoubtedly true that the Tories running a campaign centred around trans issues would get them a decent amount of favourable coverage in the press. But all that means is that both the Tories and the press would look ridiculous when it turns out that most of the electorate don't care about the issue, and to the extent they do have rather permissive instincts.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

I don't think liberalrepublican is so wrong. If the Tories are out of ideas in office (and they seem to be right now, Brexit is going nowhere and "levelling up" has been a damp squib) then their best bet might be to run hard on trans issues if it helps hold the base onside. But I don't think it would be a positive sign for winning the next election, more a "least worst option" strategy. Trans issues would be a rather poor substitute for immigration as a wedge issue, which one can directly tie to wages/the economy and public services. Seems to me a problem the Tories have is being in office for long enough that they now own migration.

As for Starmer being unable to control his party, well he was able to push through a change to leadership election rules in the teeth of bitter opposition from the left, so...I mean it's quite possible the left of the party will cause him problems in the future but it seems like Starmer has that flank secure at this point in time.

[beesley]

Another point I didn't mention was that attempts to decide on what the main issue is didn't work for Theresa May - as Labour were able to make it about other issues (or rather, they chose the issues that they knew would obviously matter more). And trans issues is even less salient than Brexit, even if there was an apparent consensus in 2017.

[LAB-LIB]

I just have to say, yesterday was the 2nd anniversary of that general election that gave Boris Johnson his 80 seat majority and the night we knew Brexit would happen. It's surprising, though not exactly shocking, to see just how much Boris's political fortunes have changed since that night.

I will never forget watching Blyth Valley come in as the first Conservative gain of the night, as that was the moment we knew the exit poll was correct, and the look on the Labour candidate's face telling that she knew it was all over, not just for herself but for her party's hopes.

[Blair]

As much as I would like a snap election (being in a fortunate position than the rest of the country who might need one much more than they *want* one), I don't see the likelihood of one. The reasons to get rid of the evil one are the same as the reasons not to have one - to keep the Tories in a better position.

Anyone who has read the threads on TERFism in the UK knows that it is an issue vastly overblown (as far as public opinion is concerned, not the importance of the issue) by the media and a select few in and out of politics. Indeed the Tories have been mocked before for focusing on irrelevant issues (Theresa May's inclusion of fox hunting in 2017 was just as much ridiculed for being in the manifesto while Corbyn was talking about a range of bread and butter issues, as much as it was ridiculed for being bad policy).

Mostly it comes from the large number of younger gay male SPADs who surround Liz.* Sea change from even 15 months ago when the issue was kind of a joke, as were Terfs. Basically it has become part of center-right dogma that you have to oppose "cancel culture" over the last few years, and over the last 15 months, transgender issues have been framed as part of "cancel culture" on the right. You may or may not be right about the voters, but the younger SPADs care, activists increasingly do, and so does the membership. There is a reason the Daily Mail, Telegraph and Times are constantly feeding that. There is a hunger for outrage atm.


Now that said I did not suggest it would be THE ISSUE. In fact, I expect the Tories to avoid making any substantive stands on it whatsoever. The goal of culture wars is to

1. Divide your opponents
2. Control the media narrative
3. Make your opponents look extreme

Culture wars accomplish all of these and this issue, as unimportant as it may be does it.

1. What happened with the Labour conference showed that as with antisemitism it is something Starmer has been unable to resolve in a way which can satisfy everyone. Which means it is impossible in practice to safely discipline anyone. So by forcing Labour candidates to talk about it you generate stories of infighting

2. The media is Obsessed.  Big issue in 2017 was them turning on May. Same now. But if you give them a good story on this issue + Labour infighting they will go for it, which prevents them from picking up other narratives.

3. Starmer for all the crap he is getting is hard to peg as an extremist. So what you need to do is prove he is tolerating extremists and Labour hasn't changed. Everyone in this debate in the public sphere comes off poorly, which means you can provoke Labour into a fight with people who are not technically Tories, but stalking horses(ie. liberal/radical feminists) the murder-suicide takes down Starmer's new image.


Yeah real chance of it turning into a 2015 Harper style fiasco. But if you are a backbench Tory looking at every other issue - covid restrictions, spending(and cuts coming up), corruption - what else are you planning to run on? You need to make Labour scary.

Nitpicking but Starmers policy on A/S has pleased some groups- specifically the Jewish community papers, Labours Jewish affiliate and a number of influential stakeholders in the party. It was never designed to appease people in the party who frankly did not agree with the EHRC report.

[Blair]

Is anyone else concerned by the ever increasing rise of blue ticks and other various media figures essentially grifting off being anti-COVID?

It seems to have got much worse in the recent week and months and has become well a way of life for various media figures.

[Conservatopia]

I just have to say, yesterday was the 2nd anniversary of that general election that gave Boris Johnson his 80 seat majority and the night we knew Brexit would happen. It's surprising, though not exactly shocking, to see just how much Boris's political fortunes have changed since that night.

I will never forget watching Blyth Valley come in as the first Conservative gain of the night, as that was the moment we knew the exit poll was correct, and the look on the Labour candidate's face telling that she knew it was all over, not just for herself but for her party's hopes.

A feeling of euphoria for me that I don't think will ever be repeated.

[TheTide]

Quite a few people like to compare Johnson to Trump. Recent days have shown that, if anything, Trump is too mild a comparison. Johnson has quite blatantly ramped up the Covid crisis to get embarrassing headlines off the agenda. If Trump had been in this kind of situation, he would have probably done little more than shake his fists on Twitter.

[ingemann]

Quite a few people like to compare Johnson to Trump. Recent days have shown that, if anything, Trump is too mild a comparison. Johnson has quite blatantly ramped up the Covid crisis to get embarrassing headlines off the agenda. If Trump had been in this kind of situation, he would have probably done little more than shake his fists on Twitter.

Well yeah Trump is a narcissist, Johnson is a sociopath, or they at least play those things well enough on TV to be mistaken for it.

[CumbrianLefty]

Johnson hasn't actually tried to overthrow democracy, mind. Not yet anyway.......

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

Is anyone else concerned by the ever increasing rise of blue ticks and other various media figures essentially grifting off being anti-COVID?

It seems to have got much worse in the recent week and months and has become well a way of life for various media figures.

What do you mean anti-covid ? like anti-covid restrictions or something else ?

[Dan the Roman]

I don't think liberalrepublican is so wrong. If the Tories are out of ideas in office (and they seem to be right now, Brexit is going nowhere and "levelling up" has been a damp squib) then their best bet might be to run hard on trans issues if it helps hold the base onside. But I don't think it would be a positive sign for winning the next election, more a "least worst option" strategy. Trans issues would be a rather poor substitute for immigration as a wedge issue, which one can directly tie to wages/the economy and public services. Seems to me a problem the Tories have is being in office for long enough that they now own migration.

As for Starmer being unable to control his party, well he was able to push through a change to leadership election rules in the teeth of bitter opposition from the left, so...I mean it's quite possible the left of the party will cause him problems in the future but it seems like Starmer has that flank secure at this point in time.

I probably over empathized that issue as an example. I think that wing of the Tories have a couple different "culture war" ones. What I do think is

1. "Least bad option" would be trying to tell anyone who hates the Tories and all things being equal wants a Labour government that it will mean empowering annoying people with punitive authority(which means a combination of free speech, cancel culture, "curriculum" )

2. That wing of the Tories definitely perceives a huge opening given recent events precisely because the issue seems not just be divisive within other parties/environments they do not do well such as intellectual elite and academia but because it is so nasty and bitter.

My specific stuff about internal dynamics is mostly to say that the constituency within the party who would object on some sort of "moral" or "principled" grounds to such an approach if they thought it might work is greatly reduced and largely perceived as on their way out. If you want a measure take a look at the "grifters". Darren Grimes has reinvented himself as a super Terf ally. That probably isn't flattering for his newfound allies, but it does indicate where he feels the winds are blowing(and just got a GBnews spot).

People who have objections are now viewed as potential liabilities in the event the party needs to "break the glass" and go for this. Which is a sea change from that sort of group sneering at others in the Cameron era and for a while after.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1470757146212065284

Thatcher, of course, famously extricated herself from that hole... but only with the assistance of a small and thoroughly victorious war against an actual fascist dictatorship.

[Silent Hunter]

98 Tory rebels on one of the Covid votes tonight. That must be close to half the non-payroll votes. Haven't heard of any resignations yet.

Not sure who the rebels are, but believe Andrew Rosindell (Con, Romford) is one of them.

[YL]

98 Tory rebels on one of the Covid votes tonight. That must be close to half the non-payroll votes. Haven't heard of any resignations yet.

Not sure who the rebels are, but believe Andrew Rosindell (Con, Romford) is one of them.

List here: https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1182#noes

Seems like a mix of wings of the party.

[Silent Hunter]

And Jeremy Corbyn to boot!

[DavidB.]

98 Tory rebels on one of the Covid votes tonight. That must be close to half the non-payroll votes. Haven't heard of any resignations yet.

Not sure who the rebels are, but believe Andrew Rosindell (Con, Romford) is one of them.

List here: https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1182#noes

Seems like a mix of wings of the party.

Never thought I'd see the day I agreed more with Jezza than with Boris, but here we are.