Israeli General Election (2nd of March, 2020): Madness

[DavidB.]

Shlomo Filber is out with a new poll that I find...interesting.

Likud 38
Lapid 16
Gantz 15
Joint List 15
Labor/Meretz 8
Shas 8
Yamina 7
UTJ 7
Lieberman 6

Very good poll for Gantz and a very solid 75 seats for the soon to be formed government. It's obvious a lot of KL voters prefer this unity government over the Tibi coalition, protracted deadlock, or a potential fourth election. And also logical, given that most Israeli center-left voters are still Zionists after all.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

F*** it, I'm done defending Israel. 

[Oryxslayer]

2. There are virtually no Corona rally-to-the-flag coattails for Netanyahu. In France Macron has rocketed from the grave to a 50% approval. In the US Trump, despite absolutely mangling the American crisis reaponse, has his best numbers ever right now. Boris Johnson fumbled the UK response at first and got historic apprroval numbers (and apparently Corona) as a reward. But Netanyahu? At least half the country still can't stand him.

Any approval numbers, or say Head-to-Head Bibi vs Gantz? What we have have seen in other counties, as you noted, is leaders in positions of prominence gaining approvals via crisis management. However, the approvals are 'soft' in that approvers have not abandoned their old parties. In Italy polls have found Conte with sky high approvals, but the party toplines have only slightly changed. Lega still leads and the right still leads the govt in combined percentage, but by a bit less. Austria and Germany have found the parties to be polling similar to their numbers before the crisis, just with the government parties up by a hair since before the crisis. Trump similarly has been unable to convert record approvals into poll leads over Biden nationally. South Korean polls have been stable before and during this crisis, despite the election in a few weeks. The UK in this regard is an outlier because of the labour succession occurring concurrent to the virus.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same in Israel. Bibi personally is likely enjoying some historically high numbers, but voters haven't moved that much.

Head-to-Head Bibi vs Gantz would be one of the most completely irrelevant polls to undertake now.

Obviously, but there's limited data available so you gotta work with what  you got.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

F*** it, I'm done defending Israel. 

Yeah.

I know how awful it must feel for you to give up on this, and I hope you know how awful it feels for me as well.

Very good poll for Gantz and a very solid 75 seats for the soon to be formed government. It's obvious a lot of KL voters prefer this unity government over the Tibi coalition, protracted deadlock, or a potential fourth election. And also logical, given that most Israeli center-left voters are still Zionists after all.

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over a democracy in which them Ay-rabs are equal political participants.

[DavidB.]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

[brucejoel99]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I guess you missed the part where it says that all Israelis are equal under the State.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

I wouldn't downplay its significance, no, and I don't expect somebody with your overall perspective within the Israeli political context to support a JL-supported government or be comfortable with it at all; the reason I've supported Israel and Zionism for as long as I have precisely is a recognition that the Arab players in the region are at least as bigoted against Jews as Israeli Jews are against them, maybe more so. But calling it "the Tibi coalition", as if it would be a JL-led government or one with JL ministers in key departments, goes beyond discomfort into histrionics and scaremongering, and it's exactly the kind of histrionics and scaremongering that finally has me fed up with this country's politics and society.

[GM Team Member and Deputy PPT WB]

Gantz is a f**king clown.

[America Needs R'hllor]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I'd just like to point out that the Joint List is the sole representation of the Arab minority in Israel, a minority with a very complicated history and relationship with us that we cannot ignore. That they were willing to support a government lead by three former army chiefs and the known racist Lieberman is a huge step forward for a shared and peaceful life in this small plot of land, and the left should've unequivocally taken it.

It's also high time the Israeli left stops being such a weak and tired politicial force with no appetite for winning- if Netanyahu could he'd easily form a government with outside support from anyone because he wants to win. It's pathetic that the left refused to take a free win- both Lieberman and the Arabs were ok board and we still failed! It's absolutely ridiculous.

As far the Afd... They represent no one but the far right and the historical context for them is problematic rather than one that should cause more understanding, as with the Arabs. Just look at this old piece of news I found:

"The AfD council members in the Leipzig city council opppsed a proposal by Linke to name a bridge after Georg Alzer, who attempted to assassinate Hitler in 1939. Their reason is that Alzer's attack was a danger to the life of others."

And another one:
"Afd MP Roland Ulbrich on the recent synagogue shooting: "it's a damage to property and nothing else. Judicially, it isn't even an attempt to kill praying people. What's worse? Two dead Germans or damage to a synagogue door?" "

This is the party for the Germans who didn't learn from the holocaust, the party for a slow slide back to fascism and racism that will endanger minorities like Muslims and Jews. It's an entirely different situation. Yes, the Joint List politicians had terrible statements, but they're representing a minority that, sadly, felt a lot of pain from us over the years. Accepting help from them will move Israel into a future with more coexistence and less racism, and that's all the difference.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, the one good thing that came out of this horrifying pantomime of depravity, corruption and fecklessness is that it finally made me come to my senses and put David on ignore. Can't believe how much time I wasted arguing with this creep.

[Antonio the Sixth]

yes, I know, so much for the tolerant left blah blah blah. what a novel and insightful observation

[Velasco]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

The comparison between AfD and the Joint List is amusing, but not very accurate. A CDU-FDP coalition with the outside support of AfD, in Saxony or Thuringia, has a clear equivalent in the PP-Cs coalition governments propped up by Vox in the Spanish regions of Andalusia or Madrid. The Israeli context is very different and the parties are too distant, ideologically speaking: far-right German.party Vs coalition of predominantly Arab parties incorporating the 'communists'. However, there is a similarity between Germany and Israel called 'cordon sanitaire'. But don't forget there are opposite reasons to implement a policy of cordon sanitaire: ideological in Germany and ethnic in Israel

Indeed, Zionism is about Jews ruling a Jewish state. Actually, one of the problems with ethno-nationalism is that very often it's associated to racism and discrimination. In the case of Israel the right is openly racist, while the centre and the remnants of the left are somewhat less explicit.

The heterogeneous and disparate 'Tibi Coalition' is quite telling about the polarizing nature of Bibi Netanyahu. In the Zionist camp we have a centre-right coalition led by a former Chief of the Army, a secular right-wing party led by a racist and the spoils of the centre-left and the left. The Joint List is equally heterogeneous incorporating leftists, Arab nationalists and islamists. All these pieces are apparently impossible to assemble together. However, given the alternatives, it seems that Tibi thing is the only way to go forward. I'm hugely skeptical, but I'd give them a try because there's no other choice. I don't forget that Gantz is a war criminal and there's a battered and disenfranchised people suffering under the rule of the Israeli state

[Walmart_shopper]

Well, the one good thing that came out of this horrifying pantomime of depravity, corruption and fecklessness is that it finally made me come to my senses and put David on ignore. Can't believe how much time I wasted arguing with this creep.

I cannot help but wonder whether the reason why the events of the last 48 Hours took almost everybody in this thread by shock, may have had something to do with that sort of attitude?

Gantz was literally outrunning Netanyahu to the right on Issues like Gaza, but sure, if you live in Cloud cuckoo land where Views such as Davids - on the Joint List participation perfectly within the mainstream, probably actually the mainstream of public opinion in Israel - are blocked out and anyone with them is derided as a "creep", then yea, I think you are going to find yourself disappointed often when reality hits - and not just in Israeli politics by the way.

When people usually talk about "mainstream Israeli political opinion" they are actually talking about Jewish Israeli political opinion. Which is, yes, racist, immoral, and insane. But thankfully there is at least 25% of the country that is not Jewish and acts as an important balance to the Jewish majority. Just as the US would he Trump Kingdom without non-whites.

About 50% of Jewish Israelis are part of a coalition of fundamentalist/Kahanists/hard nationalists/racists. 25% are very decent people traumatized by Oslo and split between being liberal at heart but terrified of the dangers of our region. And 25% are part of a liberal/left coalition. So obviously a strong tilt towards the Jewish version of Israel and away from the democratic one.

But put the Arabs in the mix and you have a country pretty close to the last three elections--basically 50/50 with a devisive advantage to people like Gantz, liberals who are willing to lean right if it helps them get money, power, security, etc.

If you read my posts I obviously don't feel hugely optimistic about the future of the country, and I have no illusions about how truly ill it is. But the truth is that if you take Israel as the diverse, multicultural country it really is, it's actually in much better shape than if you think of Israel as the Jewish state with a large Arab pimple on the neck that the right wants us to think it is.

Also, if Tel Aviv actually bothered to vote Gantz would be PM of a center left government right now.

[Walmart_shopper]

Put Lucy Aharish at #2 in Yesh Atid and you'll get at least five seats from Gantz.

Oh yeah by the way, Lucy Aharish is definitely going into politics. Watch her in the next couple years.

Did you see the video of her last night on Channel 12? It was glorious.

[Lord Halifax]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I guess you missed the part where it says that all Israelis are equal under the State.

That has nothing to do with what Zionism is about. The Israeli constitution is not a 1:1 reflection of Zionist ideology.

[brucejoel99]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I guess you missed the part where it says that all Israelis are equal under the State.

That has nothing to do with what Zionism is about. The Israeli constitution is not a 1:1 reflection of Zionist ideology.

Zionism & equal rights for Israeli Arabs aren't mutually exclusive. Any adherent who believes otherwise is just trying to cover for not giving a f**k about 21% of Israel's population.

[Lord Halifax]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I guess you missed the part where it says that all Israelis are equal under the State.

That has nothing to do with what Zionism is about. The Israeli constitution is not a 1:1 reflection of Zionist ideology.

Zionism & equal rights for Israeli Arabs aren't mutually exclusive. Any adherent who believes otherwise is just trying to cover for not giving a f**k about 21% of Israel's population.

They may not be, but your "gotcha" argument ("guess you missed...") isn't valid.

[brucejoel99]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I guess you missed the part where it says that all Israelis are equal under the State.

That has nothing to do with what Zionism is about. The Israeli constitution is not a 1:1 reflection of Zionist ideology.

Zionism & equal rights for Israeli Arabs aren't mutually exclusive. Any adherent who believes otherwise is just trying to cover for not giving a f**k about 21% of Israel's population.

They may not be, but your "gotcha" argument ("guess you missed...") isn't valid.

It is, though. Last I checked, Zionism is still supposed to be structured on democratic principles.

[Hnv1]

Little known bit of gossip, Lucy Aharish was neatly placed at Gabay’s Labour when suddenly Gantz surfaced and it looked like Labour aren’t going anywhere near 15 seats. I personally don’t like her that much but it’s an improvement to have her on the panel (especially compared to the demented hag Mazlih)

[Lord Halifax]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I guess you missed the part where it says that all Israelis are equal under the State.

That has nothing to do with what Zionism is about. The Israeli constitution is not a 1:1 reflection of Zionist ideology.

Zionism & equal rights for Israeli Arabs aren't mutually exclusive. Any adherent who believes otherwise is just trying to cover for not giving a f**k about 21% of Israel's population.

They may not be, but your "gotcha" argument ("guess you missed...") isn't valid.

It is, though. Last I checked, Zionism is still supposed to be structured on democratic principles.

Democracy doesn't equal liberal democracy, it can also mean the right of an (ethnically or culturally defined) people to govern itself (rule of the majority). The core of Zionism is the right of the Jewish people to have a national homeland, and if there is a conflict between that and liberal principles (as enshrined in the constitution) then you can't just assume that the latter takes precedence for every Zionist. If one were to follow your logic you can't be a Zionist unless you believe in liberal principles incl. minority rights, and that's a meaningless definition.

[brucejoel99]

"The Tibi coalition" is an interesting (read: delusional and shamelessly racist) way to describe a Zionist-center-left minority government that would have had outside confidence and supply from the Arabs. But delusion and shameless racism (whether against Ostjuden or Sephardim and Mizrahim or Arabs) have characterized a certain current in the Zionist center-left for a very long time, so I agree with you that it's not logical for these people to prefer a fundamentalist ethnarchy over AAAAAH AY-RABS.

I wouldn't see you downplay the significance of "outside confidence and supply" when it would be a hypothetical CDU-FDP coalition with AfD outside support in Sachsen (or indeed similar hypothetical arrangements with much more mainstream parties on the European right). What's the difference?
Current and recent former JL MKs have made endlessly more problematic comments on Jews than Höcke ever did.

Apart from that, Zionism is about Jews being in control of their own Jewish state. A weak minority government relying on Arab parties who are outright hostile to the idea of Israel as a Jewish state would seriously jeopardize this idea of Zionism and everyone who is intellectually honest knows this.

I guess you missed the part where it says that all Israelis are equal under the State.

That has nothing to do with what Zionism is about. The Israeli constitution is not a 1:1 reflection of Zionist ideology.

Zionism & equal rights for Israeli Arabs aren't mutually exclusive. Any adherent who believes otherwise is just trying to cover for not giving a f**k about 21% of Israel's population.

They may not be, but your "gotcha" argument ("guess you missed...") isn't valid.

It is, though. Last I checked, Zionism is still supposed to be structured on democratic principles.

Democracy doesn't equal liberal democracy, it can also mean the right of an (ethnically or culturally defined) people to govern itself. The core of Zionism is the right of the Jewish people to have a national homeland, and if there is a conflict between that and liberal principles (as enshrined in the constitution) then you can't just assume that the latter takes precedence for every Zionist. If one were to follow your logic you can't be a Zionist unless you believe in liberal principles incl. minority rights, and that's a meaningless definition.

Espousing the development & protection of the State of Israel, post re-establishment, is antithetical to discrimination among citizens of the said State under the law. If an individual who considers themself to be a Zionist fundamentally disagrees with that being the case, then I don't know what to tell you except to say that they're in fundamental disagreement with the movement they claim to be an adherent of, & that's not my problem; that's theirs.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Little known bit of gossip, Lucy Aharish was neatly placed at Gabay’s Labour when suddenly Gantz surfaced and it looked like Labour aren’t going anywhere near 15 seats. I personally don’t like her that much but it’s an improvement to have her on the panel (especially compared to the demented hag Mazlih)

Interesting! I can easily see her on some left list lead by Yair Golan or on the Yesh Atid list, depending on which direction she wants to go.

[Velasco]

Democracy doesn't equal liberal democracy, it can also mean the right of an (ethnically or culturally defined) people to govern itself. The core of Zionism is the right of the Jewish people to have a national homeland, and if there is a conflict between that and liberal principles (as enshrined in the constitution) then you can't just assume that the latter takes precedence for every Zionist. If one were to follow your logic you can't be a Zionist unless you believe in liberal principles incl. minority rights, and that's a meaningless definition.

Are you implying there exist alternative forms of democracy based on ethnicity, such as ''Jewish democracy'', ''Arab democracy'', or ''Chinese democracy''? I don't think so

I concur that Zionism and liberal democracy are not indivisible. Far from that, the mainstream rightwing revisionist Zionism is blatantly racist and illiberal. But there's a brand of liberal Zionism that tries to reconcile the notion of ethnic state with the principles of liberal democracy, as it's enshrined in the constitution. In case of conflict (unavoidable), it seems clear many Zionists give precedence to ethnicity

[Hnv1]

Democracy doesn't equal liberal democracy, it can also mean the right of an (ethnically or culturally defined) people to govern itself. The core of Zionism is the right of the Jewish people to have a national homeland, and if there is a conflict between that and liberal principles (as enshrined in the constitution) then you can't just assume that the latter takes precedence for every Zionist. If one were to follow your logic you can't be a Zionist unless you believe in liberal principles incl. minority rights, and that's a meaningless definition.

Are you implying there exist alternative forms of democracy based on ethnicity, such as ''Jewish democracy'', ''Arab democracy'', or ''Chinese democracy''? I don't think so

I concur that Zionism and liberal democracy are not indivisible. Far from that, the mainstream rightwing revisionist Zionism is blatantly racist and illiberal. But there's a brand of liberal Zionism that tries to reconcile the notion of ethnic state with the principles of liberal democracy, as it's enshrined in the constitution. In case of conflict (unavoidable), it seems clear many Zionists give precedence to ethnicity

Descriptively of course there is, there exists democracies which satisfy the majoritarian principle and have an ethnic constitutional basis. You might not think that it’s *desirable*, or that any democracy should always contingently come with an absolute equality before the law (still reconcilable with ethnic democracy), or even a stronger case where no there should be no ethnic trait to the state (and the problem lies here).

I am not a big fan of democracy, nation states, or any popular based institution. But your claim is too rigid if you also want to maintain a group right of self determination. Or as a matter of fact enable non liberal societies to move towards a liberal path an ethnic democracy might be a necessary pre condition.

[Lord Halifax]

Democracy doesn't equal liberal democracy, it can also mean the right of an (ethnically or culturally defined) people to govern itself. The core of Zionism is the right of the Jewish people to have a national homeland, and if there is a conflict between that and liberal principles (as enshrined in the constitution) then you can't just assume that the latter takes precedence for every Zionist. If one were to follow your logic you can't be a Zionist unless you believe in liberal principles incl. minority rights, and that's a meaningless definition.

Are you implying there exist alternative forms of democracy based on ethnicity, such as ''Jewish democracy'', ''Arab democracy'', or ''Chinese democracy''? I don't think so

I concur that Zionism and liberal democracy are not indivisible. Far from that, the mainstream rightwing revisionist Zionism is blatantly racist and illiberal. But there's a brand of liberal Zionism that tries to reconcile the notion of ethnic state with the principles of liberal democracy, as it's enshrined in the constitution. In case of conflict (unavoidable), it seems clear many Zionists give precedence to ethnicity

I mean that majoritarian rule without the strong liberal focus on minority rights is also a form of democracy (rule by the people via its elected representatives).
You can be in favor of an ethnically defined nation state (e.g. a Jewish state) which marginalizes ethnic minorities and still be a democrat.