Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There's also a fundamental difference between war crimes that can be ascribed to rouge individuals and rogue units (unavoidable, alas) and war crimes that are either a) a direct result of a particular culture of rapacious violence in the army in question^* or are b) the result of direct orders given by senior officers and political figures.

_{*Note that this is never one of those things that 'just happens' - it is always the result of a conscious choice to tolerate such behaviour. Toleration, in practice, is encouragement. Armed forces with particularly bad reputations for this sort of thing (such as the present Russian military or the old Red Army; or the armies of various German regimes in the first half of the 20th century or of various French regimes in the 18th and 19th centuries) had or have them because their commanders were fine with atrocious behaviour and saw (see) a benefit to it.}

[Meclazine for Israel]

Story about Moldova student Angelina Botushan.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-07/why-moldova-is-contemplating-vladimir-putin-next-move/100946336

"Angelina Botushan, who is studying winemaking, said she hoped her country's strengthening ties with Europe would bring her new opportunities, in both work and life.

"The more elderly part of society thinks we should preserve ties with Russia," she said.

"But the younger generation thinks differently and supports moves towards the West.

"I see my future there."

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Story about Moldova student Angelina Botushan.

https://live-production.wcms.abc-

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-07/why-moldova-is-contemplating-vladimir-putin-next-move/100946336

"Angelina Botushan, who is studying winemaking, said she hoped her country's strengthening ties with Europe would bring her new opportunities, in both work and life.

"The more elderly part of society thinks we should preserve ties with Russia," she said.

"But the younger generation thinks differently and supports moves towards the West.

"I see my future there."

And you're posting this because you think she's hawt?

[Middle-aged Europe]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

That seems rather, um, likely.. all things considered.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Bothsidesing a few rogue Ukrainian soldiers getting a bit too rowdy with POWs to Russia carrying on full-blown, systematized ethnic cleansing on civilian communities sure is... a take.

Keep it going. You're so smart and above the fray.

[lfromnj]

Bothsidesing a few rogue Ukrainian soldiers getting a bit too rowdy with POWs to Russia carrying on full-blown, systematized ethic cleansing on civilian communities sure is... a take.

Keep it going. You're so smart and above the fray.

Calling executions of POWs getting too rowdy is also a "take"

[Middle-aged Europe]

Bothsidesing a few rogue Ukrainian soldiers getting a bit too rowdy with POWs to Russia carrying on full-blown, systematized ethic cleansing on civilian communities sure is... a take.

Keep it going. You're so smart and above the fray.

Calling executions of POWs getting too rowdy is also a "take"

What's the least "take-ist" take on Ukraine though?

The Red Army in WWII probably committed the most war crimes among the armies of the Allies, but at the same it also accounted for the most Nazi military casualties. As soon as you are in any war-like situation it's about what means are justified by the ends.

[Logical]

My hot take is that the Russians probably deserved it. This footage was taken close to Bucha/Irpin as the Russians were retreating. They are VDV soldiers who would've been stationed in or near Bucha when the massacres took place. At best they would've been aware of and abetted the killings, at worst they were the executioners themselves. If these guys had managed to survive the war then the chances of them ever seeing a war crimes trial and facing the consequences of their actions are very slim to impossible. If this must be the only form of justice the victims of Bucha will ever get, then so be it.

[John Dule]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

[NOVA Green]

Russians deploying more deadly type of land mine in Ukraine.

Russian forces in Ukraine appear to be using a new type of weapon as they step up attacks on civilian targets: an advanced land mine equipped with sensors that can detect when people walk nearby.

Ukrainian bomb technicians discovered the device, called the POM-3, last week near the eastern city of Kharkiv, according to Human Rights Watch, a leading human rights group, which has reviewed photos provided by Ukraine’s military.

Older types of land mines typically explode when victims accidentally step on them or disturb attached tripwires. But the POM-3’s seismic sensor picks up on approaching footsteps and can effectively distinguish between humans and animals.

The POM-3 is typically launched by a rocket and falls back to earth by parachute before sticking into the ground — where it waits, according to CAT-UXO, an online resource for military and civilian bomb technicians. When the mine senses a person, it launches a small explosive warhead that detonates midair, producing fragments that are lethal up to about 50 feet away.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/06/us/politics/russia-ukraine-land-mines.html

[Hindsight was 2020]

Ukraine is pushing closer to Kherson, making small moves toward Melitopol and there are now video circling social media of Russian troops abandoning positions in Nova Kakhovka. So good progress in the south for Ukraine

https://mobile.twitter.com/mhmck/status/1511747263235821570
https://mobile.twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/1511324020716752904
https://mobile.twitter.com/TimInHonolulu/status/1511819067924967434

[NOVA Green]

WP does a profile on the Azov Battalion in Ukraine.

Worth a read despite being more heavily sourced from members of the movement than independent analysts.

It's a long article so really not sure if there's a way to synthesize the content or how it is specifically relevant within the current context, but certainly would recommend to anyone interested in understanding why various posters on this thread and in various other media outlets tend to be very cautious in how we discuss and characterize both the political and military elements of this movement, both historically and recently.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/06/ukraine-military-right-wing-militias/

[John Dule]

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

[Person Man]

Ukraine is pushing closer to Kherson, making small moves toward Melitopol and there are now video circling social media of Russian troops abandoning positions in Nova Kakhovka. So good progress in the south for Ukraine

https://mobile.twitter.com/mhmck/status/1511747263235821570
https://mobile.twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/1511324020716752904
https://mobile.twitter.com/TimInHonolulu/status/1511819067924967434

That would be the ultimate bad ass thing if Ukraine could do their own Battle if Alesia at Mariupol .

[Badger]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

 I submit that by any objective standard that would be almost impossible not to occur at this point..

[The Dowager Mod]

Murdering unarmed POW's is a war crime no matter what the excuse.

[Person Man]

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

That is a contingency we have to consider but at that point, the only practical thing to do, and ethical for the rest of the world, but still gravely immoral, would be to attempt to ensure that this conflict goes on as long as possible.

However, this is conjecture.

[Badger]

So it now seems the UA executions of Russian POWs happened before the discoveries in Bucha, according to NYT.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858

I guess it should not surprise anyone at this point that neither side could be expected to act with humanity towards the hated enemy.

However, there only happen to be Ukrainian civilians around in the combat area to massacre.

Precisely.
But this war is developing in yet still darker directions. We've not yet been able to get a sense of what Ukraine would do if it ever got its hands on Russian soil, but I can't say I have much confidence.
And neither side cares much about international law before the war, why would they care now? If Ukraine can starve Crimea of water by building a dam, and Russia can seize Crimea in defiance of international convention, this just starts to look like the starting point of a much worse version of some kind of Armenia vs Azerbaijan and India vs Pakistan mixed together.
One would hope it would never get to that point.

It's not really a stunning relevation that in war everybody does war crimes... My Lai, Abi Ghraib *coughs*... it's always a question who's the lesser evil, just like candidates/parties in democratic elections.

Here's to hoping Ukraine remains the better party.

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

 Great. Notify me when anything remotely close to that scenario is even vaguely in sight and then then I and others will give a s***..

[Person Man]

Murdering unarmed POW's is a war crime no matter what the excuse.

The perpetrators need to be prosecuted.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

Yes, that is within the realm of possibility. Ukraine's getting loads of weapons, it has conscription while Russia doesn't, and the opinion of the average Russian in the minds of the average Ukrainian has declined immensely. The tide of the war is presently in Ukraine's favor and the Russians are even withdrawing from large swathes of Ukraine as we speak.
We cannot yet exclude the possibility of a Ukrainian nation intent on cold-blooded revenge and showing that through their actions. This war is still an unpredictable thing and we are likely seeing it go in new directions as of the moment I am typing this very post.

[Badger]

Please tell me something within the realm of possibility that could make Ukraine "not the better party" in this conflict. I'm dying to know.

I suppose something that could happen is Ukraine pushing back the Russians enough off backs of a manpower advantage and Western weaponry, then acting a similar way (or worse) on Russian soil to how the Russians have acted on Ukrainian soil. If it gets to that point neither side deserves to be considered "better", and they've both committed undue grievous harm to the other's citizenry.
If this goes on long enough conscription and the aid Ukraine is getting make it quite possible they push back the Russians enough for us to see how civilized they'd act in this sort of situation.

Yes, that is within the realm of possibility. Ukraine's getting loads of weapons, it has conscription while Russia doesn't, and the opinion of the average Russian in the minds of the average Ukrainian has declined immensely. The tide of the war is presently in Ukraine's favor and the Russians are even withdrawing from large swathes of Ukraine as we speak.
We cannot yet exclude the possibility of a Ukrainian nation intent on cold-blooded revenge and showing that through their actions. This war is still an unpredictable thing and we are likely seeing it go in new directions as of the moment I am typing this very post.

 Trying to  Even imply a both sides approach to this based on this far fetched scenario is frankly ridiculous.