January 6th legal proceedings and investigations megathread

[Ferguson97]

If Trump violates this order, does he actually go to jail?

[emailking]

Qualify we don't know yet that she will accept his proposed order or that it won't be less strict. But he probably will go to jail if he violates after several warnings but not after the first violation. At least, that's what the legal experts seem to think.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

If Trump violates this order, does he actually go to jail?

More likely is some type of house arrest, but if that also comes with a social media ban (likely) that effectively halts his campaign.

[HisGrace]

With all Trump's legal troubles while running for president and having a significant chance of winning I don't want to hear anyone make fun of Lyndon LaRouche ever again.

[emailking]

Trump asks Judge Chutkan to dismiss election interference case, citing presidential immunity and Senate acquittal

Donald Trump has asked the federal judge overseeing special counsel Jack Smith’s election interference case to dismiss the criminal charges, arguing he has immunity because he was president at the time and also was acquitted by the US Senate after his impeachment.

Thursday’s filing may set up a fight that eventually goes to the Supreme Court. While courts have held presidents can be immune from civil liability for their actions while in office, novel legal questions about whether that extends to criminal prosecutions remains unsettled.

The indictment, handed up by a Washington, DC, grand jury in August, alleges that Trump illegally plotted to stay in office after losing the 2020 election.

Prosecutors allege that Trump, along with several of his lawyers and advisers, tried to implement a plot to appoint a fake slate of electors and spread misinformation about voting security, all of which ultimately led to the violence at the US Capitol on January 6, 2021.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/politics/trump-presidential-immunity-january-6/index.html


Note: the goal here is to get the case thrown out by SCOTUS before the trial starts.

[HisGrace]

Not sure how they're going to ever realize their dream of sending Biden and Obama to jail if you can't even prosecute the president after he's president. The position being taken by the right at this point is that president's should be completely above the law both during and after their presidencies.

[MasterJedi]

Not sure how they're going to ever realize their dream of sending Biden and Obama to jail if you can't even prosecute the president after he's president. The position being taken by the right at this point is that president's should be completely above the law both during and after their presidencies.

That’s only if they have an R next to their name, otherwise they should be locked up without a trail.

[emailking]

Jack Smith tells Trump to put up or shut up
Smith’s demand that Trump and his lawyers clarify his strategy is important because an affirmative defense would trigger two significant consequences

Jack Smith is asking former President Donald Trump to put his money where his mouth is. Or at least to put his documents there.

In a motion filed this week, the special counsel asked Judge Tonya S. Chutkan to order Trump to provide formal pre-trial notice of any intent to rely on advice of counsel as a defense in the federal election interference case. According to the motion, Trump and his lawyers have “repeatedly and publicly” stated an intent to assert the defense at trial. The Dec. 18 exhibit list deadline, Smith argues, is the time for Trump to put up or shut up.

Smith’s demand is important because this defense would trigger two significant consequences — a waiver of attorney-client privilege and a duty to produce all documents related to the advice. Until now, Trump has been able to have it both ways — protect testimony and documents from disclosure as privileged, while also claiming that his conduct was lawful because he simply relied on what his lawyers told him.

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trump-jack-smith-2020-election-interference-defense-rcna120166

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump asks Judge Chutkan to dismiss election interference case, citing presidential immunity and Senate acquittal

Donald Trump has asked the federal judge overseeing special counsel Jack Smith’s election interference case to dismiss the criminal charges, arguing he has immunity because he was president at the time and also was acquitted by the US Senate after his impeachment.

Thursday’s filing may set up a fight that eventually goes to the Supreme Court. While courts have held presidents can be immune from civil liability for their actions while in office, novel legal questions about whether that extends to criminal prosecutions remains unsettled.

The indictment, handed up by a Washington, DC, grand jury in August, alleges that Trump illegally plotted to stay in office after losing the 2020 election.

Prosecutors allege that Trump, along with several of his lawyers and advisers, tried to implement a plot to appoint a fake slate of electors and spread misinformation about voting security, all of which ultimately led to the violence at the US Capitol on January 6, 2021.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/05/politics/trump-presidential-immunity-january-6/index.html


Note: the goal here is to get the case thrown out by SCOTUS before the trial starts.

Just as a reminder:
Mitch McConnell Warns Trump 'Didn't Get Away With Anything,' Can Still Be Criminally Prosecuted (Feb 2021)

Also, back in 2021, Trump argued his impachment was invalid because he wasn't in office.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong about the goal - just pointing out the hypocrisy of Donald Trump's claims.

And if the Republican Court does throw out the charges, they will take the legitimiacy Court (and the existence of our Republic) from questionable to ruined. 

[emailking]

Tomorrow morning is finally the hearing on Smith's proposed gag order of Trump.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

While we wait for the outcome of the hearing, the supposedly "liberal" NBC has been acting as Trump's mouthpiece:
"Prosecutors aim to 'silence' Trump with proposed gag order in 2020 election case, his lawyers say"

Donald Trump's lawyers argued Monday that special counsel Jack Smith's motion for a proposed gag order in the 2020 election interference case is an attempt to strip the former president of his First Amendment rights and silence President Joe Biden's top political opponent.

In a 25-page filing responding to the proposed gag order, Trump's attorneys called on the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to "reject this transparent gamesmanship and deny the motion entirely."

The proposed gag order is “nothing more than an obvious attempt by the Biden Administration to unlawfully silence its most prominent political opponent, who has now taken a commanding lead in the polls," Trump's lawyers wrote.

This is neither journalism, nor a free press. It is willful sycophancy to a would-be tyrant.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

If Trump violates this order, does he actually go to jail?

Certainly not immediately. for a normal defendant and judge, I believe the process would be at couple rounds of fines or warnings, then some sort of court-ordered sanction, and only then, in the unlikely event that the defendant hadn't gotten the message, some sort of court-ordered confinement.

Donald Trump is obviously a complete scofflaw, and Judge Chutkan seems both aware of this and disinclined to tolerate his criminal behavior, so Donald Trump like won't get that much rope. Still, I'd expect him to be given enough rope to thoroughly hang himself, so I'd guess he'll "get away" with at least one egregious violation with nothing more than a slap on the wrist before the hammer comes down.

And once it does, no matter how reasonably, I expect a course of action something like this:

1. Donald Trump says, "Jack Smith should be lynched" (or something similar).
2. As a consequence, Judge Chutkan puts real limits of Donald's ability to speak/post.
3. Donald appeals, requesting a stay, because he's campaigning for President.
4. He gets the stay and is free to keep issuing threats, until the appeals court finds against him.
5. He appeals to the Supreme Court, requesting another stay.
6. Roberts grants the stay, leaving Donald free to keep issuing threats.
7. The Roberts' Court doesn't hear the case until after the election, OR finds in favor of Donald's continuing terrorism.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/politics/trump-gag-order-chutkan-hearing/index.html

A federal judge on Monday issued a gag order on former President Donald Trump, limiting what he can say about special counsel Jack Smith’s federal prosecution into his alleged attempt to subvert in the 2020 presidential election.

The order restricts Trump’s ability to publicly target court personnel, potential witnesses, or the special counsel and his staff. The order did not impose restrictions on disparaging comments about Washington, DC, – where the jury will take place – or certain comments about the Justice Department at large, both of which the government requested.

“This is not about whether I like the language Mr. Trump uses,” Judge Tanya Chutkan said. “This is about language that presents a danger to the administration of justice.”

“His presidential candidacy does not give him carte blanche to vilify public servants who are simply doing their jobs,” the judge added.

Judge Chukan also stated she would not be changing the March 4 2023 trial date. (That date currently has this case as the 6th scheduled court proceeding against convicted fraudster,  abuser, and criminal organization head Donald Trump  between now and the November 2024 elections, where he is strongly favored as the best representative of the self-declared "Republican Party".)

This is the third gag order issued against Mr. Trump. Judges in New York and Colorado have already issued gag orders in response to concerns about threats from Mr. Trump.

[emailking]

Well at least he can't call Smith deranged anymore.

[emailking]

The judge is allowing that she will look for violations "sua sponte" which means she will/may police Trump herself. Normally the prosecution needs to bring up a violation. Trump said today that the order is unconstitutional (he's wrong) and he will appeal.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Donald appears to have already violated his gag order:

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/donald-trump-attacks-judge-tanya-chutkan-gag-order-1234855458/

Former president Donald Trump lashed out against U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan hours after being issued a gag order in the federal 2020 election interference trial.

During a campaign event in Adel, Iowa, on Monday, the former president aired his grievances to the crowd of his supporters, claiming that it was “totally unconstitutional what she did.”

“A judge doesn’t like me too much. Her whole life is not liking me,” Trump claimed, before continuing, “You know what a gag order is? ‘You can’t speak badly about your opponent.’ This is weaponry all being done because Joe Biden is losing the election and losing very, very badly to all of us.”

That he behaves like this is unsurprising. That so many people are willing to believe (or pretend to believe) his lies, and continue to support him is disappointing and deplorable.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/murraywaas/status/1715086579692142887

[emailking]

Special counsel urges judge to deny Trump’s Jan. 6 claim of immunity
‘The defendant is not above the law,’ prosecutors say in opposing former president’s bid to toss out federal 2020 election subversion prosecution

U.S. prosecutors urged a federal judge Thursday to reject former president Donald Trump’s claim of absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions he took in office, saying that he is “not above the law” and that his indictment for allegedly conspiring to block the results of the 2020 election should not be dismissed.

“No court has ever alluded to the existence of absolute criminal immunity for former presidents,” assistant special counsel James I. Pearce wrote in a 54-page filing. The filing argued that legal principles, historical evidence and sound policy reasons establish that once former presidents leave office, they are subject to federal criminal prosecution “like more than 330 million other Americans, including Members of Congress, federal judges, and everyday citizens.”

...

In a dense response with eight pages of legal citations, prosecutors argued that that claim turned the law on its head, just as they said it drew a false parallel “between [Trump’s] fraudulent efforts to overturn the results of an election that he lost and the likes of Abraham Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address and George Washington’s Farewell Address,” adding dryly, “These things are not alike.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/10/19/special-counsel-rejects-trump-immunity-jan-6/


It's a very strong and indignant rebuke of Trump's ridiculous argument.

[emailking]

Judge hits pause on partial gag order in Trump federal election interference case
U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan decided to give Trump’s lawyers time to argue for a longer pause while they appeal the gag order she issued on Monday.

The judge overseeing the federal election interference case against Donald Trump has temporarily lifted the partial gag order imposed on the former president earlier this week.

U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan on Friday paused the order she issued Monday, after Trump's attorneys asked her to put the previous ruling aside while they appeal the matter.

The judge gave special counsel Jack Smith’s office until Wednesday to file a response to Trump's request. Defense attorneys will then have three days to respond to the filing by prosecutors. The directives in Monday's gag order will not be in effect during that time.

The special counsel’s office declined comment Friday night.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/judge-hits-pause-partial-gag-order-trump-federal-election-interference-rcna121508


Trump has taken advantage of the pause over the weekend.

[GeorgiaModerate]

Mark Meadows granted immunity, tells special counsel he warned Trump about 2020 claims: Sources

Former President Donald Trump's final chief of staff in the White House, Mark Meadows, has spoken with special counsel Jack Smith's team at least three times this year, including once before a federal grand jury, which came only after Smith granted Meadows immunity to testify under oath, according to sources familiar with the matter.

The sources said Meadows informed Smith's team that he repeatedly told Trump in the weeks after the 2020 presidential election that the allegations of significant voting fraud coming to them were baseless, a striking break from Trump's prolific rhetoric regarding the election.

[riceowl]

Seems big!

[emailking]

Story says he told Smith's team he agrees that the election was the most secure election is US history. His book strongly pushes the narrative that the election was stolen, lol.

[Yoda]

Mark Meadows granted immunity, tells special counsel he warned Trump about 2020 claims: Sources

Former President Donald Trump's final chief of staff in the White House, Mark Meadows, has spoken with special counsel Jack Smith's team at least three times this year, including once before a federal grand jury, which came only after Smith granted Meadows immunity to testify under oath, according to sources familiar with the matter.

The sources said Meadows informed Smith's team that he repeatedly told Trump in the weeks after the 2020 presidential election that the allegations of significant voting fraud coming to them were baseless, a striking break from Trump's prolific rhetoric regarding the election.

Gotta say my gut reaction to Meadows getting immunity was big disappointment. He's guilty of so many serious crimes it's not even funny, and he keeps getting off. He better be delivering some absolutely, incredibly damning testimony on trump if he's been given immunity. I'm gonna be sore about this until/if such testimony happens.

[GeorgiaModerate]

With Meadows flipping here, and the several flips so far in Georgia, Trump is probably going to be thinking harder about the list of countries that don't have an extradition treaty with the US.

[Holmes]

Aw! I wanted Meadows to go to prison.