DC Unrest Megathread

[NYSforKennedy2024]

Updating the title by the hour as things get worse for Trump has never been more simultaneously depressing (for the sake of the nation) and refreshing.

Who is the 5th dead person? Please don't tell me it was the cop who was in critical condition.

Ashli Babbitt, Three miscellaneous rioters who died of unrelated "medical conditions" (though I heard one was trampled to death accidentally), and reportedly the cop is now on life support until all of their family arrives, where they will likely be the 5th death.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Updating the title by the hour as things get worse for Trump has never been more simultaneously depressing (for the sake of the nation) and refreshing.

Who is the 5th dead person? Please don't tell me it was the cop who was in critical condition.

It was

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I’m not saying they aren’t responsible for the violence, I’m saying that they didn’t actually intend for it to happen.

That they continued the lying which triggered the violence after the violence happened proves their personal power is more important to them than preventing the violence. Hawley made his objection intending for more violence because violence was now provably the outcome of such lies. He decided he'd rather have Trump supporters back him in 2024 or 2028, even if more Americans died.

Their hasn’t been additional violence after the session resumed, including after further objections were raised, so it shows violence wasn’t gaurunteed.

Are you mentally incompetent? I mean I saw the blue avatar.

Nobody is suggesting that lying is an arcane ritual which immediately summons redneck shock troops to smear feces on the walls. I'm saying it's radicalizing people and is leading the country in a direction toward further violence.

No s@%t it’s radicalizing people, but that doesn’t mean they actually condone the violence.

We can argue that their isn’t a real difference in effect, but I do believe there is a difference in the character of people.

That's like saying when some Saudi sheik who funded a radical Salafi madrassa that educated a bunch of people who went on to join al-Qaeda and commit terror acts, the Saudi sheik "doesn't actually condone the violence."

No. It doesn't work that way.

It literally does. If the person doesn’t condone the violence, they don’t condone the violence. Period.

"I don't condone the violence" is not a series of hocus pocus magic words you can say to wash away all sin. You're (I assume) a (self-proclaimed) Catholic, you should know that confession doesn't work without a firm intent to change one's ways.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

I think there are some really bad-faith arguments about conservatives and Republicans in this thread that I want to do my best to address in a level-headed manner and avoid "whataboutism" as much as possible.

Most respectable conservatives- most of whom voted twice for Donald Trump- that I know in real life are equally embarrassed and saddened by this as all Americans are.  What happened is not OK, and we should all be ashamed of that display and how it looks on our country- and especially on our party.  I agree that, after this, Trump should be nowhere near power ever again.  Where I disagree is that I don't think Trump is really a fascist dictator, but rather a petulant crybaby with a massive ego.  His behavior since the election strikes me more like a 5 year old mad that he lost a game to his brother than a wannabe dictator.  Regardless, though, either one is bad enough that he should never be in power again.  And, I will do everything I can to try to encourage my party to move on from this man.  I would even support exercising the 25th Amendment or impeachment.

But, I've seen a lot of posts here suggesting that, by voting for him, we are endorsing the worst traits that he could ever possess.  I think most people would agree that there is no perfect presidential candidate and we always have to prioritize things.  I've always had major misgivings about President Trump.  Just look back to how I talked about him during the 2016 GOP primaries.  Ultimately, I voted for him because I am very issue-focused and care very little about personalities.  I viewed it as just looking at a list of issues and seeing who I agreed with more often.  Maybe I should have been more forceful on a couple of occasions, but, through the years, I feel that I have been willing to criticize the president when he is wrong, and that continues to this day.

Even worse to me is the suggestion that many red avatars have made that we should abandon all of our principles to vote against all Republicans because they are "enablers".  I could not disagree more strongly with that.  First, if all respectable conservatives left the GOP, all you would have left would be the loons who stormed the Capitol, and that's not an outcome anyone wants.  Almost all Republican officeholders, including those who have been staunch allies of Trump to this point, are speaking out vigorously against these riots.  Maybe some Republican officeholders have been too scared to go against Trump, but I understand why.  Like it or not, politicians are almost always trying to make politically calculated moves.  Going against Trump publicly, loudly, and frequently was not going to be in the cards for most officeholders.  With that said, that doesn't mean that their true allegiance is to Trump.  Most officeholders probably really saw him as a "useful idiot" of sorts.  It seems to be becoming more and more clear to me since yesterday's domestic terrorism event that most Republicans in office are going to be steering the party away from Trump.  

And, even if that's not the case, I don't think I could vote for a Democrat because there are issues that I literally view as life and death that I cannot support.  I couldn't ever hold my nose for Trump again, either.  I truly believe that most of us are doing the best we can in a very broken political system, and we should not paint all people in a party with a broad brush of the worst people theoretically on their side.

God Bless!

[TheReckoning]

I’m not saying they aren’t responsible for the violence, I’m saying that they didn’t actually intend for it to happen.

That they continued the lying which triggered the violence after the violence happened proves their personal power is more important to them than preventing the violence. Hawley made his objection intending for more violence because violence was now provably the outcome of such lies. He decided he'd rather have Trump supporters back him in 2024 or 2028, even if more Americans died.

Their hasn’t been additional violence after the session resumed, including after further objections were raised, so it shows violence wasn’t gaurunteed.

Are you mentally incompetent? I mean I saw the blue avatar.

Nobody is suggesting that lying is an arcane ritual which immediately summons redneck shock troops to smear feces on the walls. I'm saying it's radicalizing people and is leading the country in a direction toward further violence.

No s@%t it’s radicalizing people, but that doesn’t mean they actually condone the violence.

We can argue that their isn’t a real difference in effect, but I do believe there is a difference in the character of people.

That's like saying when some Saudi sheik who funded a radical Salafi madrassa that educated a bunch of people who went on to join al-Qaeda and commit terror acts, the Saudi sheik "doesn't actually condone the violence."

No. It doesn't work that way.

It literally does. If the person doesn’t condone the violence, they don’t condone the violence. Period.

"I don't condone the violence" is not a series of hocus pocus magic words you can say to wash away all sin. You're (I assume) a (self-proclaimed) Catholic, you should know that confession doesn't work without a firm intent to change one's ways.

Hawley, Cruz, and 145 other Republicans, along with Trump, should be kicked out of the GOP and the US government. But condoning violent acts is not the reason for that.

[hyouzel the predictor]

I think there are some really bad-faith arguments about conservatives and Republicans in this thread that I want to do my best to address in a level-headed manner and avoid "whataboutism" as much as possible.

Most respectable conservatives- most of whom voted twice for Donald Trump- that I know in real life are equally embarrassed and saddened by this as all Americans are.  What happened is not OK, and we should all be ashamed of that display and how it looks on our country- and especially on our party.  I agree that, after this, Trump should be nowhere near power ever again.  Where I disagree is that I don't think Trump is really a fascist dictator, but rather a petulant crybaby with a massive ego.  His behavior since the election strikes me more like a 5 year old mad that he lost a game to his brother than a wannabe dictator.  Regardless, though, either one is bad enough that he should never be in power again.  And, I will do everything I can to try to encourage my party to move on from this man.  I would even support exercising the 25th Amendment or impeachment.

But, I've seen a lot of posts here suggesting that, by voting for him, we are endorsing the worst traits that he could ever possess.  I think most people would agree that there is no perfect presidential candidate and we always have to prioritize things.  I've always had major misgivings about President Trump.  Just look back to how I talked about him during the 2016 GOP primaries.  Ultimately, I voted for him because I am very issue-focused and care very little about personalities.  I viewed it as just looking at a list of issues and seeing who I agreed with more often.  Maybe I should have been more forceful on a couple of occasions, but, through the years, I feel that I have been willing to criticize the president when he is wrong, and that continues to this day.

Even worse to me is the suggestion that many red avatars have made that we should abandon all of our principles to vote against all Republicans because they are "enablers".  I could not disagree more strongly with that.  First, if all respectable conservatives left the GOP, all you would have left would be the loons who stormed the Capitol, and that's not an outcome anyone wants.  Almost all Republican officeholders, including those who have been staunch allies of Trump to this point, are speaking out vigorously against these riots.  Maybe some Republican officeholders have been too scared to go against Trump, but I understand why.  Like it or not, politicians are almost always trying to make politically calculated moves.  Going against Trump publicly, loudly, and frequently was not going to be in the cards for most officeholders.  With that said, that doesn't mean that their true allegiance is to Trump.  Most officeholders probably really saw him as a "useful idiot" of sorts.  It seems to be becoming more and more clear to me since yesterday's domestic terrorism event that most Republicans in office are going to be steering the party away from Trump.  

And, even if that's not the case, I don't think I could vote for a Democrat because there are issues that I literally view as life and death that I cannot support.  I couldn't ever hold my nose for Trump again, either.  I truly believe that most of us are doing the best we can in a very broken political system, and we should not paint all people in a party with a broad brush of the worst people theoretically on their side.

God Bless!

I know we may have different opinions politically, but I want to tell you that I 100% agree with this statement. Hopefully for the sake of the country the GOP tries to write its wrongs, but I truly have lost faith in their leadership and upcoming stars (MTG, Gaetz, Hawley) to do the right thing.

[Interlocutor is just not there yet]

The last 4-5 pages of back-and-forth bitching and expanding quote boxes have been unbearable.

Can ya'll just shut up already and stop taking the obvious bait?

[Indy Texas]

snip

I'm 32 years old. My living experience with Republican governance is:

1. Donald Trump (riots, pandemic deaths, rampant corruption, attempts to overturn the results of an election that he lost)
2. George W. Bush (recession, war, civil liberties violations)

Do you mind explaining to me why I should have any confidence in Republicans' ability to do anything or be remotely close to positions of power ever?

What issues are so dear to you that you were willing to sign off on as decadent and depraved a man as Trump?

[Damocles]

I think there are some really bad-faith arguments about conservatives and Republicans in this thread that I want to do my best to address in a level-headed manner and avoid "whataboutism" as much as possible.

Most respectable conservatives- most of whom voted twice for Donald Trump- that I know in real life are equally embarrassed and saddened by this as all Americans are.  What happened is not OK, and we should all be ashamed of that display and how it looks on our country- and especially on our party.  I agree that, after this, Trump should be nowhere near power ever again.  Where I disagree is that I don't think Trump is really a fascist dictator, but rather a petulant crybaby with a massive ego.  His behavior since the election strikes me more like a 5 year old mad that he lost a game to his brother than a wannabe dictator.  Regardless, though, either one is bad enough that he should never be in power again.  And, I will do everything I can to try to encourage my party to move on from this man.  I would even support exercising the 25th Amendment or impeachment.

But, I've seen a lot of posts here suggesting that, by voting for him, we are endorsing the worst traits that he could ever possess.  I think most people would agree that there is no perfect presidential candidate and we always have to prioritize things.  I've always had major misgivings about President Trump.  Just look back to how I talked about him during the 2016 GOP primaries.  Ultimately, I voted for him because I am very issue-focused and care very little about personalities.  I viewed it as just looking at a list of issues and seeing who I agreed with more often.  Maybe I should have been more forceful on a couple of occasions, but, through the years, I feel that I have been willing to criticize the president when he is wrong, and that continues to this day.

Even worse to me is the suggestion that many red avatars have made that we should abandon all of our principles to vote against all Republicans because they are "enablers".  I could not disagree more strongly with that.  First, if all respectable conservatives left the GOP, all you would have left would be the loons who stormed the Capitol, and that's not an outcome anyone wants.  Almost all Republican officeholders, including those who have been staunch allies of Trump to this point, are speaking out vigorously against these riots.  Maybe some Republican officeholders have been too scared to go against Trump, but I understand why.  Like it or not, politicians are almost always trying to make politically calculated moves.  Going against Trump publicly, loudly, and frequently was not going to be in the cards for most officeholders.  With that said, that doesn't mean that their true allegiance is to Trump.  Most officeholders probably really saw him as a "useful idiot" of sorts.  It seems to be becoming more and more clear to me since yesterday's domestic terrorism event that most Republicans in office are going to be steering the party away from Trump.  

And, even if that's not the case, I don't think I could vote for a Democrat because there are issues that I literally view as life and death that I cannot support.  I couldn't ever hold my nose for Trump again, either.  I truly believe that most of us are doing the best we can in a very broken political system, and we should not paint all people in a party with a broad brush of the worst people theoretically on their side.

God Bless!

Excuse me? Excuse me? You dare have the arrogance and smugness to use “respectable conservative” and “voted for trump twice” in the same sentence?! You knew what the deal was with him five years ago. You already knew that he was a reprehensible fascist - nothing more, nothing less - and chose to vote for him anyway. And now that our sacred Capitol has been ransacked by mobs that HE whipped up, NOW you’re sorry?! NOW you have an ounce of regret?! And yet you STILL paint the opposition as a party that values death over life?!

[Santander]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

[Dr. Arch]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

LOL

[ProudModerate2]

https://twitter.com/kristin__wilson/status/1347328325019164680

Awful.
F*** I am so pissed right now.
trump is a piece of sh*t, and I hope they prosecute him and toss his lard-ass in prison.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

[snip]

What's done is done. In an idea world, the politicians who spread the wicked lies and inflamed the passions that led to the armed assault on our Capitol yesterday would confess their sins and remove themselves from public life. They are responsible for what happened —and that includes not only Trump, but the likes of Cruz and Hawley who even after the terrible harvest of their words awas known, still persisted with their false and insidious claims —and they must be held accountable, if not by their consciences, then by the voters.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't expect honest conservatives to suddenly support for AOC or Bernie Sanders. Maybe if this were France (or Louisiana or California) and our general elections were a one-or-the-other choice —but they aren't. If you truly believe that what happened today is unacceptable, however, then I do expect you to support a third party if you cannot bring yourself to vote for the Democrats. I would expect the same of myself if a Democratic president had just urged his supporters to march on the Capitol to prevent the seating of a Republican president. Voting to reelect politicians who attack our democracy, is at some level an endorsement of their actions, because you are making it possible for them to continue those attacks. The past is in the past; but after yesterday, they can be no misunderstanding what these individuals are about —and if you vote for them, you are voting for this to happen again.

[TheReckoning]

TheReckoning is a fascist troll. Ignore his ass and report every single one of his posts. There’s no justifying this sh**t and he’s doing it in plain view.

Easy man, I’m not trying to troll, nor am I a fascist, I’m just not agreeing with the idea that most Republicans condone the violence.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

ExtremeRepublican is extremely (ha) correct in many ways here. We're talking about generalizing about a group of 74 million people. Most of them are fairly normal. In fact, a very large majority of them are in fact normal people - not the most crazy group of wackos who would do this.
It's not civil, just, or fair to overuse guilt by association and presume automatically that an expression of support for one's political tribe would also lead to one committing these acts. It's not right or correct to spout these ideas and then attack someone for giving a partisan reply defending either their own side's voters or politicians, after you have doused yourself in a level of, however understandable or otherwise, rhetorical excess. It's not conductive to the starting of healing or even of normality in any way, shape, or form to just mudsludge the other side in this manner and treat a person as a potential criminal purely on this sort of basis.
Sowing even more increased and thorough partisan hatred will only increase the risk of something like this recurring in the future. And it's even more harmful to our democracy in the long-term than anything the attackers did yesterday. We need sanity. Please be considerate and compassionate. We can disagree on what needs to be done but can we just please be considerate? Is that too much to ask?

[GeorgiaModerate]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

Yes.

[Santander]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

LOL

I'm serious. All he ever wanted is to be loved, but he used demagoguery to get it, and he is finally reaping the consequences. I am not excusing any of his actions, but I can't help but feel sorry for anyone who reaches a self-inflicted nadir.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

Get bent traitor

[TheReckoning]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

LOL

I'm serious. All he ever wanted is to be loved, but he used demagoguery to get it, and he is finally reaping the consequences. I am not excusing any of his actions, but I can't help but feel sorry for anyone who reaches a self-inflicted nadir.

Trump had the option to go out gracefully. He still would’ve had a huge following, and at least some respect within the Republican Party.

Man dug his own grave, hard to feel sorry for him when he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Tekken_Guy]

The GOP needs to excise the wackjobs from the party, (i.e. Greene, Gohmert, Gosar) and follow more of a Ron DeSantis-style path.

[Holmes]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

Yuh

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

The GOP needs to excise the wackjobs from the party, (i.e. Greene, Gohmert, Gosar) and follow more of a Ron DeSantis-style path.

Letting a pandemic run rampant and covering it up?

Well it’s a sort of step up

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Am I the only person who feels sorry for Trump now?

LOL

I'm serious. All he ever wanted is to be loved, but he used demagoguery to get it, and he is finally reaping the consequences. I am not excusing any of his actions, but I can't help but feel sorry for anyone who reaches a self-inflicted nadir.

yeah, I feel sorry for Trump too. But that isn't saying much. I have pity for and feel sorry for a lot of terrible, amoral people who sabotaged themselves like that, because it's just sad to watch human beings waste their potential in such a thorough way. So yeah, Trump has reaped the whirlwind. As more than one person has said, the chicken has came to roost.

[ProudModerate2]

https://twitter.com/RepDeanPhillips/status/1347311506266984450

Compare the character of Andy Kim and Donald Trump...

I love this image and the story.
Thank you for sharing it with us.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://twitter.com/gregpmiller/status/1347369974860554244