PA-SN 2022 megathread: Shrek vs. The Wizard of Oz

[kyc0705]

"Blame the nearest woman" remains alive and well in public discourse, sadly to no surprise.

[wbrocks67]

To UncleSam:

Mobility is low in the United States. It is better than other countries and some class differences are necessary for a functioning economy. But someone who grew up rich.. and is in a successful career? Is it really that much success?

Agreed, not really sure what that has to do with PA though. If anything Oz is the one who built an empire and was an extremely successful doctor off of nothing but his own hard work and undeniable medical ingenuity.

Fetterman meanwhile lived with his parents well into adulthood, lived off their money while he pursued a political career, and has literally never held a real job.

So tell me which candidate pulled himself up by his bootstraps and which one just spent his life living off of mommy and daddy’s money?

Oz, like Trump, is a con man who sells snake oil. No one is saying con men can’t be successful, but I would dispute the skills involved with being a con man (which mostly involve being willing to throw all ethics out the window while shamelessly lying to and manipulating people) somehow translate into being an effective leader. Oh they might make you great at the worst, sleaziest parts of politics — corrupt deals, lying to voters, etc. But is that really what we want MORE of in our politicians?

I’ll grant that Oz, unlike Trump (who was as silver spoon-fed and “never held a real job” as it gets), did show he had some work ethic and actual skills in his medical career. But he sold out to be a TV snake oil salesman. And in any case, just because you are smart and good in one field does not mean that translates to all other fields. This bizarre notion among Republicans that the richer someone is, the better they are in general reeks of prosperity gospel.

I do respect his medical career a million times more than being a TV personality. Going from being the son of turkish immigrants to a renowned medical researcher at one of the premier research institutions in the country (Columbia) is among the most impressive career trajectories I have of anybody having in any field, regardless of being politically inclined or not. I can't think of a single sitting senator with a more impressive resume in that respect.

In terms of him selling out for the TV money, I don't care much either way. He bandied being photogenic into a massive fortune and I neither view him negatively nor positively for it. I do think that the world would have been better off if he had stayed in his medical researcher role, though. Regardless, he is clearly the better choice for U.S. senate when compared to Fetterman, whose problems go well beyond his stroke and who is simultaneously unfit and unqualified to serve in the senate. The country would be better off with Oz in that seat.

And yes, I support Warnock in GA for the same reason. The country will be better off with someone who has not suffered cognitive impairment in the senate. Anybody supporting both Warnock and Fetterman (or Oz and Walker) is imo nothing more than a partisan hack who cares only for political power.

Fetterman has not suffered "cognitive impairment." This type of comment is really gross, and once again reinforces a lot of stereotypes about people with disabilities.

[Torie]

Centrist bashing has certainly become a popular sport, but don't be surprised if they are not there for you when it counts. And while their psephological heft may be waning as it is almost everywhere, as the bases of both parties retreat behind the barricades of anger, frustration and angst, sometimes spilling over into paranoia, in places like PA, they still hold the balance of power.

I really don't understand myself why PA Dems went so decisively for Fetterman over Lamb, and maybe Lamb just grates on people, but they did.

[This user has not been convicted of 34 felonies]

Jesus Christ those tweets were pure evil. I'm not surprised given the folks who tweeted them, but you'd like to hope even the worst of us have some shred of decency. Evidently not.

[citizenZ]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/26/john-fetterman-camp-claims-captions-was-filled-with-errors-during-pennsylvania-senate-debate/

Debate host fires back after Fetterman camp claims captions were ‘filled with errors’

Oh damn. Now Fetterman's campaign is attacking the moderators. This isn't a good strategy.

[Anti Democrat Democrat Club]

Centrist bashing has certainly become a popular sport, but don't be surprised if they are not there for you when it counts. And while their psephological heft may be waning as it is almost everywhere, as the bases of both parties retreat behind the barricades of anger, frustration and angst, sometimes spilling over into paranoia, in places like PA, they still hold the balance of power.

I really don't understand myself why PA Dems went so decisively for Fetterman over Lamb, and maybe Lamb just grates on people, but they did.

>centrists come in bashing progressive candidate, say centrist is more electable
>progressives respond by calling said centrist unelectable disaster
>"This type of centrist-bashing alienates people"

gr8 DARVO m8

[jamestroll]

Centrist bashing has certainly become a popular sport, but don't be surprised if they are not there for you when it counts. And while their psephological heft may be waning as it is almost everywhere, as the bases of both parties retreat behind the barricades of anger, frustration and angst, sometimes spilling over into paranoia, in places like PA, they still hold the balance of power.

I really don't understand myself why PA Dems went so decisively for Fetterman over Lamb, and maybe Lamb just grates on people, but they did.

>centrists come in bashing progressive candidate, say centrist is more electable
>progressives respond by calling said centrist unelectable disaster
>"This type of centrist-bashing alienates people"

gr8 DARVO m8

I do not like the lines about "progressives are better to win".

I wouldn't want a progressive as the nominee in VA under a Democratic president. Though a generic progressive should defeat hard conservative in a neutral year in VA.

PA seems more like a grey area.. I can see reasons either a progressive or centrist would do better.

[Anti Democrat Democrat Club]

Centrist bashing has certainly become a popular sport, but don't be surprised if they are not there for you when it counts. And while their psephological heft may be waning as it is almost everywhere, as the bases of both parties retreat behind the barricades of anger, frustration and angst, sometimes spilling over into paranoia, in places like PA, they still hold the balance of power.

I really don't understand myself why PA Dems went so decisively for Fetterman over Lamb, and maybe Lamb just grates on people, but they did.

>centrists come in bashing progressive candidate, say centrist is more electable
>progressives respond by calling said centrist unelectable disaster
>"This type of centrist-bashing alienates people"

gr8 DARVO m8

I do not like the lines about "progressives are better to win".

I wouldn't want a progressive as the nominee in VA under a Democratic president. Though a generic progressive should defeat hard conservative in a neutral year in VA.

PA seems more like a grey area.. I can see reasons either a progressive or centrist would do better.

Yet I never said that!

Nobody here is saying Lee Carter would have beaten Youngkin. We're saying Lamb ran an awful campaign and would be getting dogwalked by Oz.

[jamestroll]

Centrist bashing has certainly become a popular sport, but don't be surprised if they are not there for you when it counts. And while their psephological heft may be waning as it is almost everywhere, as the bases of both parties retreat behind the barricades of anger, frustration and angst, sometimes spilling over into paranoia, in places like PA, they still hold the balance of power.

I really don't understand myself why PA Dems went so decisively for Fetterman over Lamb, and maybe Lamb just grates on people, but they did.

>centrists come in bashing progressive candidate, say centrist is more electable
>progressives respond by calling said centrist unelectable disaster
>"This type of centrist-bashing alienates people"

gr8 DARVO m8

I do not like the lines about "progressives are better to win".

I wouldn't want a progressive as the nominee in VA under a Democratic president. Though a generic progressive should defeat hard conservative in a neutral year in VA.

PA seems more like a grey area.. I can see reasons either a progressive or centrist would do better.

Yet I never said that!

Nobody here is saying Lee Carter would have beaten Youngkin. We're saying Lamb ran an awful campaign and would be getting dogwalked by Oz.

Yes, if Lamb couldn't defeat Fetterman in the primary .. I doubt he could run a viable statewide campaign.

[Anti Democrat Democrat Club]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/26/john-fetterman-camp-claims-captions-was-filled-with-errors-during-pennsylvania-senate-debate/

Debate host fires back after Fetterman camp claims captions were ‘filled with errors’

Oh damn. Now Fetterman's campaign is attacking the moderators. This isn't a good strategy.

Not an attack on the moderators at all, but whatever misinformation floats your boat.

[citizenZ]

It seems that the last 10-20 years in American politics, the Democrats take any loss or potential loss in the state of Pennsylvania very personally.

When Trump won in 2016, it was considered the greatest "stunner" even though one could argue Michigan or Wisconsin was a bigger surprise. The entire night on MSNBC Chris Matthews kept talking about some thing called the "Philly machine" and how Hillary would end up winning.

Clearly, if Dr. Oz wins the Senate seat, it will be one of if not the most bitter defeats for democrats on this forum.

My question is, why Pennsylvania?

[wbrocks67]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/26/john-fetterman-camp-claims-captions-was-filled-with-errors-during-pennsylvania-senate-debate/

Debate host fires back after Fetterman camp claims captions were ‘filled with errors’

Oh damn. Now Fetterman's campaign is attacking the moderators. This isn't a good strategy.

Not an attack on the moderators at all, but whatever misinformation floats your boat.

I have to laugh at NYPost running at least *6* articles just since last night about the debate, all basically saying the same thing. They even put Fox News to shame lol

[Anti Democrat Democrat Club]

At least Dr. Oz's home newspaper has his back.

[jamestroll]

Mostly because the attacks on Fetterman which is due to his impediments seem so cruel. Especially when it is not his own fault, and it does not really stop him from doing the job.

[kwabbit]

With Gisele being a Latina, the conspiracies about her secretly plotting to take the Senate seat of a White man remind me of Great Replacement type conspiracies. John is still running because he wants to run. If he wanted to drop out after the stroke, it would’ve happened and no one would’ve faulted him, given that the establishment wanted Lamb more anyway.

John should be capable of being a Senator in 3 months if he’s elected. He might not be at his best in the Senate for a while, but it’s not like he’s FDR on his deathbed or Wilson post stroke where they were President in name only.

[wbrocks67]

With Gisele being a Latina, the conspiracies about her secretly plotting to take the Senate seat of a White man remind me of Great Replacement type conspiracies. John is still running because he wants to run. If he wanted to drop out after the stroke, it would’ve happened and no one would’ve faulted him, given that the establishment wanted Lamb more anyway.

John should be capable of being a Senator in 3 months if he’s elected. He might not be at his best in the Senate for a while, but it’s not like he’s FDR on his deathbed or Wilson post stroke where they were President in name only.

I know people will call me a hack, or some will call it the bare minimum - but given he just had a stroke 5/6 months ago, even being up on that debate stage for an hour and being able to answer questions (albeit having some speech trouble) is incredibly impressive in terms of just human stroke recovery. I'm sure there's many stroke survivors who would not have been able to even do that after this short amount of time.

[wbrocks67]

Mostly because the attacks on Fetterman which is due to his impediments seem so cruel. Especially when it is not his own fault, and it does not really stop him from doing the job.

This. The entire thing comes off really desperate because the GOP needs to attack him at any cost. At the end of the day the GOP is basically saying - once again, as they have for months now - that if you have a disability, you're not fit to run for office, and if you have speech issues, you're brain dead and aren't fit to serve. It's just a totally gross misunderstanding of not just stroke recovery but disability issues.

[GALeftist]

Better question: why is someone with the name citizenq even allowed on the forum? Might as well name yourself Heima Trollman.

[jamestroll]

Mostly because the attacks on Fetterman which is due to his impediments seem so cruel. Especially when it is not his own fault, and it does not really stop him from doing the job.

This. The entire thing comes off really desperate because the GOP needs to attack him at any cost. At the end of the day the GOP is basically saying - once again, as they have for months now - that if you have a disability, you're not fit to run for office, and if you have speech issues, you're brain dead and aren't fit to serve. It's just a totally gross misunderstanding of not just stroke recovery but disability issues.

And speech impediments have no correlation to intelligence.


A Republican can win PA without this nonsense.

[wbrocks67]

Mostly because the attacks on Fetterman which is due to his impediments seem so cruel. Especially when it is not his own fault, and it does not really stop him from doing the job.

This. The entire thing comes off really desperate because the GOP needs to attack him at any cost. At the end of the day the GOP is basically saying - once again, as they have for months now - that if you have a disability, you're not fit to run for office, and if you have speech issues, you're brain dead and aren't fit to serve. It's just a totally gross misunderstanding of not just stroke recovery but disability issues.

And speech impediments have no correlation to intelligence.


A Republican can win PA without this nonsense.

It's like saying someone with a stutter is brain dead and "cognitively impaired". It's gross.

[GALeftist]

Anyway, end of the day, I think the era of debates really mattering for stuff other than presidential races is basically done unless one candidate has a major major gaffe. I'd have to imagine the number of swing voters tuning into them is pretty remote since swing voters tend to be less engaged than the median, and the partisans who watch the debate will almost always find some way to defend anything that happens. Open to recanting if the polls show otherwise.

[Orwell]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/26/john-fetterman-camp-claims-captions-was-filled-with-errors-during-pennsylvania-senate-debate/

Debate host fires back after Fetterman camp claims captions were ‘filled with errors’

Oh damn. Now Fetterman's campaign is attacking the moderators. This isn't a good strategy.

Not an attack on the moderators at all, but whatever misinformation floats your boat.

I'd like a Senator who can speak without the need of a teleprompter

[jamestroll]

https://nypost.com/2022/10/26/john-fetterman-camp-claims-captions-was-filled-with-errors-during-pennsylvania-senate-debate/

Debate host fires back after Fetterman camp claims captions were ‘filled with errors’

Oh damn. Now Fetterman's campaign is attacking the moderators. This isn't a good strategy.

Not an attack on the moderators at all, but whatever misinformation floats your boat.

I'd like a Senator who can speak without the need of a teleprompter

he barely would need that assistance to begin with...

[RussFeingoldWasRobbed]

With Gisele being a Latina, the conspiracies about her secretly plotting to take the Senate seat of a White man remind me of Great Replacement type conspiracies. John is still running because he wants to run. If he wanted to drop out after the stroke, it would’ve happened and no one would’ve faulted him, given that the establishment wanted Lamb more anyway.

John should be capable of being a Senator in 3 months if he’s elected. He might not be at his best in the Senate for a while, but it’s not like he’s FDR on his deathbed or Wilson post stroke where they were President in name only.

I know people will call me a hack, or some will call it the bare minimum - but given he just had a stroke 5/6 months ago, even being up on that debate stage for an hour and being able to answer questions (albeit having some speech trouble) is incredibly impressive in terms of just human stroke recovery. I'm sure there's many stroke survivors who would not have been able to even do that after this short amount of time.

Thats certainly a possible way of looking at it but I highly doubt that will be the way its painted in the media unfortunately.

[wbrocks67]

With Gisele being a Latina, the conspiracies about her secretly plotting to take the Senate seat of a White man remind me of Great Replacement type conspiracies. John is still running because he wants to run. If he wanted to drop out after the stroke, it would’ve happened and no one would’ve faulted him, given that the establishment wanted Lamb more anyway.

John should be capable of being a Senator in 3 months if he’s elected. He might not be at his best in the Senate for a while, but it’s not like he’s FDR on his deathbed or Wilson post stroke where they were President in name only.

I know people will call me a hack, or some will call it the bare minimum - but given he just had a stroke 5/6 months ago, even being up on that debate stage for an hour and being able to answer questions (albeit having some speech trouble) is incredibly impressive in terms of just human stroke recovery. I'm sure there's many stroke survivors who would not have been able to even do that after this short amount of time.

Thats certainly a possible way of looking at it but I highly doubt that will be the way its painted in the media unfortunately.

Oh, of course not. I've long not expected the press to handle this properly, and they've fell below any expectations I would've even had that were already low. Especially after giving Walker accolades for being incoherent but then coming for Fetterman who literally had a stroke.

Not just that - but there's been *zero* coverage of the other two U.S. senators who have had strokes this year and about their "ability" to serve.