International COVID-19 Megathread

[CumbrianLefty]

I thought the Pfizer vaccine (also used on many Brits, of course) has a shorter "shelf life" than AZ?

[Silent Hunter]

I thought the Pfizer vaccine (also used on many Brits, of course) has a shorter "shelf life" than AZ?

IIRC, it was harder to transport and store than AZ. That may have changed.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Putin announced a work-free week from October 30 to bring down infection rates.

It's actually stunning the vaccination rate is Russia is that low despite the government's pressure to get vaccinated. I wonder why there is so much hesitancy there? You would expect more people follow the call of an autocratic leader.

I believe Russia has long had high rates of vaccine skepticism. Even before Covid I’m pretty sure polls showed that people living in Russia were far less likely to have positive views of vaccinations than much of the World.

Yes, this. Basically all the countries from USSR/Warsaw Pact struggles with that (to different degree).

https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker/

For instance, Bulgaria (20%) and Romania (30%) are in EU and thus have basically limitless access to Pfizer/Moderna, yet they have lower/same vaccination rate as Russia (32%). Belarus has 18%, Ukraine 15%.

Some Russians has at least a plausible deniability - they say, they'd like to be vaccinated, just not with Sputnik V.

East Germany's vaccination rate is also noticably lower than West Germany's. The eastern states are between 56% and 64% fully vaccinated, the western states between 64% and 77%.

Guess who has the highest infection rates right now? Thuringia and Saxony.

[President Johnson]

I thought the Pfizer vaccine (also used on many Brits, of course) has a shorter "shelf life" than AZ?

IIRC, it was harder to transport and store than AZ. That may have changed.

Yes, that has indeed changed for Biontech/Pfizer. Storage at -70C° was recommended until early summer. Now it's being said normal fridge temperature is enough for storage up to one month.

[President Johnson]

Almost all patients are unvaccinated and medical personell increasingly gets frustrated over them. I can absolutely understand them.

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1453750907070517259

[Middle-aged Europe]

Almost all patients are unvaccinated and medical personell increasingly gets frustrated over them. I can absolutely understand them.

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1453750907070517259

The vaccinated vs. unvaccinated divide is also an increasing cause for interpersonal conflicts, as I had to witness first hand last weekend. Seems like I have to rearrange my social contacts a bit again.

[parochial boy]

Busting certain myths about the alleged responsibility and reasonableness of the German speaking world versus the allegedly unserious and frivolous Southern Europeans:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OurWorldInData/status/1453330363254706177

Even in Switzerland the non-German speaking cantons are all a few points ahead of the German ones

[CumbrianLefty]

Antivax has more purchase in N Europe?

[Omega21]

Almost all patients are unvaccinated and medical personell increasingly gets frustrated over them. I can absolutely understand them.

https://twitter.com/dwnews/status/1453750907070517259

This is false unfortunately, but it seems Germany is not very keen on tracking and publishing the vax status of patients, so maybe that's why you think that.

https://www.diepresse.com/6054269/viele-geimpfte-im-spital

In the province of Oberösterreich, almost half the people in hospital fully vaccinated and over 60.

So sind etwa in Oberösterreich die Hälfte der Spitalspatienten über 60 und geimpft

The numbers from Switzerland also show the same.

36% of patients are fully vaccinated there.

https://www.nau.ch/news/schweiz/coronavirus-immer-mehr-geimpfte-landen-auf-der-intensivstation-66029420

So I'd like to ask fellow posters not to spread misinformation in a time like this.

Old people need boosters, that much is apparent already, so ignoring the number of vaxxed oldies in hospital is counterproductive to sending the right message.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Yes, booster vaccinations - or lack thereof - increasingly become a topic in Germany. Health minister Jens Spahn also made a bit of a butt monkey out of himself (again) by recommending that every adult should get one, drawing immediate criticism from health experts because we don't really have the infrastructure for that anymore after most of the large-scale vaccination centers were shut down during the summer.

[President Johnson]

Germany has broken a record as nearly 34k cases were reported today. The most on record so far. Meanwhile, a poll found that 57% are in favor of a general vaccine mandate, only 39% oppose. And 79% support a mandate for medical personell.

Hospitals on Romina are overloaded in a new wave of infections recently, and some ICU patients were rushed to Germany.

Meanwhile, Russia is reporting a new record of deaths: 1195 passed away yesterday. Russia has a low vaccine rate at just around 35%, mainly due to vaccine hesitancy.

[It’s so Joever]

Is there another variant in the UK? The constant high numbers seem absurd.

[CumbrianLefty]

Its basically that the decision was made in the UK to pretty much let all the kids get it.

As things currently stand, some European countries infection rates are rising a lot faster than us anyway.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Germany feels a bit like a mess right now.

While the situation doesn't seem quite as bad as this time around last year (when we had been in the so-called and ill-fated "lockdown light" for about a week now), things are getting worse and nobody knows how bad it's gonna get eventually. Only that the upcoming winter is long.

Infections and hospitalizations continue to climb. Official full vaccination rate is at 67% (which is certainly lower than Spain's 80%, for instance).

Most of the political elite is ruling out another lockdown as well as vaccination mandates. Nobody has really answered the question yet what is going to happen if ICUs are full and hospitals close to collapse though. Only Thuringia's minister-president Bodo Ramelow (Left) has suggested a third option: Prioritize the vaccinated and those who couldn't be vaccinated due to  medical reasons in intensive care. Ramelow's suggestion has been criticized as unethical, although ethics aside it would certainly create the strongest incentive to get vaccinated yet.

The country has also been described as being paralyzed by a political vacuum resulting from its current transitional period. Both the outgoing Merkel and the incoming Scholz administration largely seem to be characterized by their inaction and reluctant half-measures.

This largely shoves the responsibility back to the individual states, after the federal government had briefly usurped emergency powers early this year. Step by step, a number of stop-gap measures are being instituted, including:
- Expansion of the so-called "2G" rule (2G = geimpft and genesen / vaccinated and recovered) to pretty much all areas and venues except the most vital ones like supermarkets and public transportation, effectively shutting out the unvaccinated from less vital ones like restaurants, cinemas, museums and so on.
- Introduction of "3G" (2G plus getestet / tested) rules in all workplaces.
- Reintroduction of mask mandates in schools.
- The launch of of a booster campaign for those who have already been vaccinated.
- Making COVID tests free of charge again.

If we eventually reach the point where another lockdown is deemed necessary - maybe around Christmas just like last year? - it will certainly be "interesting" to see how that pans out. Somewhat unsurprisingly, a majority of the country supports a general vaccination mandate according to recent opinion polling. I say unsurprising, because the vaccinated are the majority after all. I suppose this would become a rather strongly held opinion in case of a lockdown. Let's wait and see.

[Yeahsayyeah]

In other news, Germany's Stiko (Ständige Impfkommission - Standing vaccination committee announced, that they won't have their recommendation for vaccinating 5 to 12 year olds ready before mid-December. I just can't fathom, what they are really waiting for ... every time.

[Omega21]

Germany feels a bit like a mess right now.

While the situation doesn't seem quite as bad as this time around last year (when we had been in the so-called and ill-fated "lockdown light" for about a week now), things are getting worse and nobody knows how bad it's gonna get eventually. Only that the upcoming winter is long.

Infections and hospitalizations continue to climb. Official full vaccination rate is at 67% (which is certainly lower than Spain's 80%, for instance).

Most of the political elite is ruling out another lockdown as well as vaccination mandates. Nobody has really answered the question yet what is going to happen if ICUs are full and hospitals close to collapse though. Only Thuringia's minister-president Bodo Ramelow (Left) has suggested a third option: Prioritize the vaccinated and those who couldn't be vaccinated due to  medical reasons in intensive care. Ramelow's suggestion has been criticized as unethical, although ethics aside it would certainly create the strongest incentive to get vaccinated yet.

The country has also been described as being paralyzed by a political vacuum resulting from its current transitional period. Both the outgoing Merkel and the incoming Scholz administration largely seem to be characterized by their inaction and reluctant half-measures.

This largely shoves the responsibility back to the individual states, after the federal government had briefly usurped emergency powers early this year. Step by step, a number of stop-gap measures are being instituted, including:
- Expansion of the so-called "2G" rule (2G = geimpft and genesen / vaccinated and recovered) to pretty much all areas and venues except the most vital ones like supermarkets and public transportation, effectively shutting out the unvaccinated from less vital ones like restaurants, cinemas, museums and so on.
- Introduction of "3G" (2G plus getestet / tested) rules in all workplaces.
- Reintroduction of mask mandates in schools.
- The launch of of a booster campaign for those who have already been vaccinated.
- Making COVID tests free of charge again.

If we eventually reach the point where another lockdown is deemed necessary - maybe around Christmas just like last year? - it will certainly be "interesting" to see how that pans out. Somewhat unsurprisingly, a majority of the country supports a general vaccination mandate according to recent opinion polling. I say unsurprising, because the vaccinated are the majority after all. I suppose this would become a rather strongly held opinion in case of a lockdown. Let's wait and see.

This is not how triage works.

95 year old vaccinated man vs a 19 year old unvaccinated student, and he would try to save the one who has maybe a year more to live instead of the one who's got 60 years ahead of him?

Incredibly dumb suggestion, then again, we are talking about die Linke...

[Middle-aged Europe]

This is not how triage works.

95 year old vaccinated man vs a 19 year old unvaccinated student, and he would try to save the one who has maybe a year more to live instead of the one who's got 60 years ahead of him?

Well, that's not how triage works either, since the age or the life expectancy after successful treatment and recovery isn't a factor that has been used.

Triage is determined by severity of injury/illness and likelihood to survive injury/illness in the present situation.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Christian Drosten, Germany's answer to Anthony Fauci, is giving a lot of interviews again these days.

His one core message on page 5 in today's interview with ZEIT ONLINE: Another lockdown is necessary, but - he adds - not necessarily legal. That would be up to the politicians to decide. The alternative is the lockdown for the unvaccinated - which may be not enough to curtail infections though.

[urutzizu]

As we can see with the new Infection control law, the only substantive measure that there seems to be enough political support/consensus for is reintroducing free tests for the unvaccinated. Even the oh so tough Söder et al are not actually putting their money where there mouth is on "2G" (which in Bavaria is just a pcr-test obligation which they are introducing). Despite there being a majority in the population for even much more radical measures such as in favour mandatory vaccinations. But the political class is simply not willing to risk the unvaccinated all going AFD.

Fundamentally in my view there are two ways here really, you can be like the UK and just Ignore the Virus which means a high number of deaths, but now also an infection rate similar to or lower than much of Europe which is implementing measures, or you can do what Macron or Draghi have done, and have the balls to take the necessary measures to push the anti-vaxxers into the cold water, with the risk that, yes, sociatal polarisation will increase and many will go further down the rabbit hole.

The problem for Germany is that our societal mentality won't allow us to do the first, while our political system cannot give us the second. For all the positives about a compromise oriented system, the result of a lowest possible denominator simply is not good enough in a pandemic. Especially if it means in practical terms that the only measure we can all agree on is the one that will actually decrease the incentive to get vaccinated (and being deeply insulting to the Idea of personal responsibility, something that has not stopped the FDP of being the loudest advocate for it of course.)

[Omega21]

This is not how triage works.

95 year old vaccinated man vs a 19 year old unvaccinated student, and he would try to save the one who has maybe a year more to live instead of the one who's got 60 years ahead of him?

Well, that's not how triage works either, since the age or the life expectancy after successful treatment and recovery isn't a factor that has been used.

Triage is determined by severity of injury/illness and likelihood to survive injury/illness in the present situation.

This score determines the probability of patient survival (Ps) from the combination of both anatomical and physiological (Injury Severity Score (ISS) and Revised Trauma Score (RTS), respectively) scores. A logarithmic regression equation is used:

Ps = 1/(1+e-b), where b = bo + b1 (RTS) + b2 (ISS) + b3 (Age Score)[14]

RTS and ISS are calculated as above and Age Score is either 0 if the patient is <55 years old or 1 if aged 55 and over. The coefficients b0-b3 depend on the type of trauma (NB: there is some variation in the published values for these). A TRISS calculator is available on the internet

Age is built into that formula, it would be incredibly dumb if it wasn't.

Refer to: https://patient.info/doctor/trauma-triage-and-scoring

Fundamentally in my view there are two ways here really, you can be like the UK and just Ignore the Virus which means a high number of deaths, but now also an infection rate similar to or lower than much of Europe which is implementing measures, or you can do what Macron or Draghi have done, and have the balls to take the necessary measures to push the anti-vaxxers into the cold water, with the risk that, yes, sociatal polarisation will increase and many will go further down the rabbit hole.

If you're vaxxed (and boosted if you're old), your chance of dying from Covid is really low.

At some point, we will have to just "ignore" the Virus, and seeing as we already have vaccines + pills, I don't see why we shouldn't.

The pill is also something that can be given to unvaccinated people who land in the hospital, hopefully relieving pressure from the ICUs. But that would actually require the EMA to get off their ass and approve the damn pill, like the Brits already did.

[President Johnson]

50,000 cases per day passed today. A new all time record.

I think we need much stricter rules right now, especially moving to 2G rules (vaccinated and recovered only) in as much public places as possible and more remote working again, whereever possible.

[Lechasseur]

I've been reading this evening that Upper Austria is planning on having a lockdown for the non vaccinated and the medical panel that advises the Dutch government has advised a 2-week lockdown in the Netherlands.

[Pericles]

I'm wondering whether England actually made a better call than other European countries. England's chief medical officer said when they made the call for their Freedom Day that "“At a certain point, you move to the situation where instead of actually averting hospitalisations and deaths, you move over to just delaying them. So you’re not actually changing the number of people who will go to hospital or die, you may change when they happen,”. For people who never get vaccinated, they will inevitably get Covid at some point. So, the objective could reasonably be just to spread up the infections among those people so that the peak at any one point is never so high that it risks overwhelming the health service and denying patients-including non Covid patients-quality care. So European countries that kept some social distancing restrictions may have just pushed the wave back so it now peaks higher than England's, and their healthcare system's are more stressed. However, restrictions that also have the effect of increasing the vaccination rate, such as vaccine passports/certificates, are sensible from this point of view because it actually lowers the amount of people who die and the stress on the healthcare system.

This is of course different to the pandemic pre-vaccination when delaying infection actually saved lives by buying time for people to get the vaccine. It's also not the same in the US, too many areas have too low of a vaccination rate that greater restrictions may be needed to protect the healthcare system (though the places with the most restrictions in the US don't tend to be the ones that need them). This also presumes that the current waves are primarily unvaccinated patients and that there isn't a big risk of a lot of vaccinated people getting seriously ill.

[Middle-aged Europe]

This Corona winter will be probably the last Corona winter where I don't emigrate from Germany.  My countrymen have become to stupid to endure. Spain seems nice. Better weather too.

In other news, a meeting of the Conference of Minister-Presidents is scheduled for next Thursday where "2G" will (probably) be implemented for the entire country the following week. At that point, this will (probably) come three or four weeks too late. At least the measure seems to be effective in Austria: https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/corona-virus-in-oesterreich-zahl-der-impfungen-steigt-deutlich-a-f75b6627-37e8-489a-b716-6721b9f9cdbc

[CumbrianLefty]

Dutch PM to announce the return of major restrictions later today, apparently.