Resist The Authoritarian Response To The Coronavirus

[Devout Centrist]

This really seems like a case where the symptoms (fear, economic depression, societal shutdown) are worse than the disease (99% survival rate).

That death rate's gonna be a lot higher if our healthcare system gets overwhelmed. Better to take these measures now rather than end up like Iran.

[Yellowhammer]

Libertarians would rather die than have any minor social responsibilities placed on them. Shock.

I would rather go out fighting tyranny and slavery than acquiesce to it, yes. That is a judgement that is up to every individual to make. Choosing slavery is a legitimate option, but it doesn't make you more responsible, moral or good than someone who does not. It just makes you a slave -- at the end of the day, most people can be easily contented with slavery so long as the velvet chains don't set too heavy.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

Lot of dumb shit in this thread but I'll hone in on two frustrating things:

- Is anybody in this thread actually going to bat for the CA bans? Even in most of these cases (outside of SF) the "shutdown" still allows people to go outside.

In general the hysterical arguments in this thread are people probably talking past each other because they think they're fighting an ideological battle rather than a practical one (shocker). I don't think anybody is actually arguing about absolutes; they're arguing about where the line should be as if they were arguing about absolutes.

- People who are downplaying the virus because so few people are infected right now... do you realize how exponential growth works? Like, at all? You are aware that we're in the early stages of infection and testing, and that if trends continue, the number of infected people and deaths will get much larger, right?

[DabbingSanta]

This thread is such a colossal failure.  Of course we don't want millions to die. I don't want anyone to die. And I think I'm speaking for everyone here. I just believe that there are better ways to deal with this situation than economic suicide and restricting the rights and freedoms of individuals. I am all for temporarily closing schools and stopping large gatherings to "flatten the curve" so our health care system isn't overwhelmed, I think we all are, and I believe the government has done a good job at doing that. What I am not for is the mass hysteria we are seeing, like what is being portrayed in the media, and locking down cities like they have in Spain and Italy. It is debatable if these measures are even working, but even if they were, it would be unconstitutional to implement them in the United States.

People are starting to flip out, and I understand why. You can't turn on the radio or TV without being blasted with it. It's wall to wall coverage that you can't escape. I can't turn on the radio, watch TV, or even hold a conversation with someone without constantly hearing about it. I think we all need to take a step back, calm down, take a deep breath, and start behaving like adults. Society has survived many pandemics. Our grandparents lived with rampant disease outbreaks like polio and tuberculosis. Society never melted down like what we are seeing today. It's unbelievable! And frankly, I think a lot of us have had enough of this s***.

[It’s so Joever]

It's cute that you think everybody that disagrees with you is a libertarian.

The funny part is that, Sprout,green line , and Lech could all actually be considered to some degree communitarians, they just recognize the risk of shutting down everything to the whole community.

Exactly

As Mr R said, the consequences of the lockdowns will be far worse than the disease itself

I am sure nurses in Bergamo agree with you right now....

[Lechasseur]

This thread is such a colossal failure.  Of course we don't want millions to die. I don't want anyone to die. And I think I'm speaking for everyone here. I just believe that there are better ways to deal with this situation than economic suicide and restricting the rights and freedoms of individuals. I am all for temporarily closing schools and stopping large gatherings to "flatten the curve" so our health care system isn't overwhelmed, I think we all are, and I believe the government has done a good job at doing that. What I am not for is the mass hysteria we are seeing, like what is being portrayed in the media, and locking down cities like they have in Spain and Italy. It is debatable if these measures are even working, but even if they were, it would be unconstitutional to implement them in the United States.

People are starting to flip out, and I understand why. You can't turn on the radio or TV without being blasted with it. It's wall to wall coverage that you can't escape. I can't turn on the radio, watch TV, or even hold a conversation with someone without constantly hearing about it. I think we all need to take a step back, calm down, take a deep breath, and start behaving like adults. Society has survived many pandemics. Our grandparents lived with rampant disease outbreaks like polio and tuberculosis. Society never melted down like what we are seeing today. It's unbelievable! And frankly, I think a lot of us have had enough of this s***.

Exactly

[Farmlands]

I agree with the economic arguments here. But, there is still most freedom of movement in the countries under lockdown. Unless people feel like having to print a document to show authorities, at most, is equivalent to living in a dictatorial regime, the conspiratorial hysteria is unwarranted.

[Green Line]

This thread is such a colossal failure.  Of course we don't want millions to die. I don't want anyone to die. And I think I'm speaking for everyone here. I just believe that there are better ways to deal with this situation than economic suicide and restricting the rights and freedoms of individuals. I am all for temporarily closing schools and stopping large gatherings to "flatten the curve" so our health care system isn't overwhelmed, I think we all are, and I believe the government has done a good job at doing that. What I am not for is the mass hysteria we are seeing, like what is being portrayed in the media, and locking down cities like they have in Spain and Italy. It is debatable if these measures are even working, but even if they were, it would be unconstitutional to implement them in the United States.

People are starting to flip out, and I understand why. You can't turn on the radio or TV without being blasted with it. It's wall to wall coverage that you can't escape. I can't turn on the radio, watch TV, or even hold a conversation with someone without constantly hearing about it. I think we all need to take a step back, calm down, take a deep breath, and start behaving like adults. Society has survived many pandemics. Our grandparents lived with rampant disease outbreaks like polio and tuberculosis. Society never melted down like what we are seeing today. It's unbelievable! And frankly, I think a lot of us have had enough of this s***.

Hear hear.

[Lechasseur]

You all being total nutjobs on your 18 month total lockdown is going to push a lot of people towards voting for Trump who wouldn't otherwise

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

- Is anybody in this thread actually going to bat for the CA bans? Even in most of these cases (outside of SF) the "shutdown" still allows people to go outside.

I don't think anyone is going to bat for looser restrictions (except perhaps Mr. R when it comes to non-urban Virginia)! Everyone is at least satisfied with the status quo being used in most of the US, it's just that some people think we need significantly more including at least San Francisco measures.

- People who are downplaying the virus because so few people are infected right now... do you realize how exponential growth works? Like, at all? You are aware that we're in the early stages of infection and testing, and that if trends continue, the number of infected people and deaths will get much larger, right?

I don't think anyone is downplaying it based on the current numbers. We are downplaying it on the quote of 10,000 dead based on the current measures. I'll even say 10-40k is a range that would be relatively harmless and go unnoticed (for the US alone). This is not based on the 100 we have already lost, we are indeed forecasting exponentially. On the other hand, you have fools up-playing it by saying the number of dead will be 25% of World War II (i.e., nearly 20 million dead bodies - I won't quote him on 50%) if we fail to make drastic changes and copy the France/Italy model. I would wager half my worth that we are a heck of a lot closer to accurately estimating the impact.

[💥💥 brandon bro (he/him/his)]

- Is anybody in this thread actually going to bat for the CA bans? Even in most of these cases (outside of SF) the "shutdown" still allows people to go outside.

I don't think anyone is going to bat for looser restrictions (except perhaps Mr. R when it comes to non-urban Virginia)! Everyone is at least satisfied with the status quo being used in most of the US, it's just that some people think we need significantly more including at least San Francisco measures.

I agree! That's, in part, why I made the post.

- People who are downplaying the virus because so few people are infected right now... do you realize how exponential growth works? Like, at all? You are aware that we're in the early stages of infection and testing, and that if trends continue, the number of infected people and deaths will get much larger, right?

I don't think anyone is downplaying it based on the current numbers. We are downplaying it on the quote of 10,000 dead based on the current measures. I'll even say 10-40k is a range that would be relatively harmless and go unnoticed (for the US alone). This is not based on the 100 we have already lost, we are indeed forecasting exponentially. On the other hand, you have fools up-playing it by saying the number of dead will be 25% of World War II (i.e., nearly 20 million dead bodies - I won't quote him on 50%) if we fail to make drastic changes and copy the France/Italy model. I would wager half my worth that we are a heck of a lot closer to accurately estimating the impact.

Eh... I was referring to posts like this:

You really expect me to poke someone with a yard stick any time I have to help with a customer at the counter or hand someone a piece of paper? You are demanding that we shut down over suspicion. Medical Mccarthyism is insane. Whats next, mandatory thermometer readings before someone can enter a bathroom. News is reporting mob violence against suspected infected people. This is NOT an OK way to react to a disease that does not kill 99% of infecteds and has not infected 99% of people. This is going to go down as one of the biggest mass panic overreactions in modern times.

I have no idea where this "mob violence" against infected people is coming from (perhaps Stormfront?) Hard to tell. But I think anyone who is talking about percentages, especially if it's a cumulative percentage ("has not infected 99% of people"), is ignoring the fact that we have documented cases of community transmission that had been happening for potentially weeks, combined with a lengthy incubation and transmission period, and the fact that we didn't start taking any precautions to mass-test or prevent transmission until a week ago. Anyone who says that, at this point in time, the disease has only done X is fundamentally misunderstanding how transmission works. The quote above is not the only post I've seen that makes an assertion like this.

FWIW you are not one of the people I was thinking of as being a problem in this thread.

[It’s so Joever]

“This is the biggest mass panic in history”
The healthcare system in Northern Italy collapsed in a few weeks over this, this is far closer to the biggest underreaction in history, at least among Americans. You people seem to have some weird belief that America is special, that it won’t get bad here. Well guess what, it will!
We are not any better than Italy, we are no different than the European countries right now. We have widespread community transmission across the country, and a month of a lockdown to prevent a disease that has hospitalized 20% of the infected is now an overreaction?
We curved civil liberties over a one time terror attacked which killed about 3,000 Americans. Now it’s somehow unacceptable and “unprecedented” to do the same for possibly hundreds of thousands of lives (as hospitals are overloaded, preventable conditions won’t be treated)
Honestly it feels like a lot of Atlas posters are looking at the numbers only, without any analysis on their impacts. Ask any nurse or doctor in Northern Italy, we are not overreacting in any way.

[Skill and Chance]

You all being total nutjobs on your 18 month total lockdown is going to push a lot of people towards voting for Trump who wouldn't otherwise

Nobody wants an "18 month total lockdown"!  That is insane.  Even if this was Black Death 2, more people would die of starvation/anxiety by the end of that.  But people should be psychologically prepared for long slog with possibly several more 0.5-2 month intervals of social distancing as needed in different localities and that normal life will not fully return nationwide until there is a vaccine sometime in 2021.

You know people didn't have to stay in bomb shelters continuously in London for the duration of the Blitz, right?  They went in periodically as the raids happened, then came back out.

 

[It’s so Joever]

You all being total nutjobs on your 18 month total lockdown is going to push a lot of people towards voting for Trump who wouldn't otherwise

Nobody wants 18 month lockdowns, read my post about a 2 month nationwide lockdown and then what to do from there.
As usual, “Anti-guvment” Atlas users are misinterpreting our arguments every single time.

[It’s so Joever]

Libertarians would rather die than have any minor social responsibilities placed on them. Shock.

I would rather go out fighting tyranny and slavery than acquiesce to it, yes. That is a judgement that is up to every individual to make. Choosing slavery is a legitimate option, but it doesn't make you more responsible, moral or good than someone who does not. It just makes you a slave -- at the end of the day, most people can be easily contented with slavery so long as the velvet chains don't set too heavy.

For a Confederate Sympathizer, it’s ironic you are complaining about slavery.

[Del Tachi]

You all being total nutjobs on your 18 month total lockdown is going to push a lot of people towards voting for Trump who wouldn't otherwise

Nobody wants an "18 month total lockdown"!  That is insane.  Even if this was Black Death 2, more people would die of starvation/anxiety by the end of that.  But people should be psychologically prepared for long slog with possibly several more 0.5-2 month intervals of social distancing as needed in different localities and that normal life will not fully return nationwide until there is a vaccine sometime in 2021.

You know people didn't have to stay in bomb shelters continuously in London for the duration of the Blitz, right?  They went in periodically as the raids happened, then came back out.

There's a pretty big psychological difference here.  A bombing raid is obviously a very evident, localized, temporary event.  People being told to hole up indefinitely because of a disease that is always *just around the corner is going to get old very, very quickly.

People won't be buying-into social distancing and self-quarantines in four weeks.  Fear is the motivator now.  Fear doesn't have an infinite shelf life.  People will ultimately see the medicine as worse than the disease.

The grass is always greener.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Lot of dumb sh**t in this thread but I'll hone in on two frustrating things:

- Is anybody in this thread actually going to bat for the CA bans? Even in most of these cases (outside of SF) the "shutdown" still allows people to go outside.

In general the hysterical arguments in this thread are people probably talking past each other because they think they're fighting an ideological battle rather than a practical one (shocker). I don't think anybody is actually arguing about absolutes; they're arguing about where the line should be as if they were arguing about absolutes.

- People who are downplaying the virus because so few people are infected right now... do you realize how exponential growth works? Like, at all? You are aware that we're in the early stages of infection and testing, and that if trends continue, the number of infected people and deaths will get much larger, right?

Very good post.

And I regret that this thread has turned into...what it has become. I'm not going to lock it...yet.

[All Along The Watchtower]

You all being total nutjobs on your 18 month total lockdown is going to push a lot of people towards voting for Trump who wouldn't otherwise

[Storebought]

Authoritarianism has already spread in response to coronavirus:

Chile postpones constitutional referendum

[ProudModerate2]

We have ZERO cases in my town

- you can't possibly know that based on USA testing levels

- thst's likely not true, and if it is, that likely will change soon

I was thinking the same thing.
Our testing of the virus in our communities has been poor, at best.

[ProudModerate2]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

You are such a troll.
Can you take this matter seriously for once.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

You are such a troll.
Can you take this matter seriously for once.

Tonight I confirmed that I am taking this about as seriously as anyone in the country. I've been locked in my house for four consecutive days afraid to so much as touch an elevator button. So long without fresh air or legitimate sunlight really caused a depressing mood to settle in. So this evening I dared to walk outside for the first time, and what do you know? The streets are at least 60-80 percent of their normal capacity depending on where exactly you look (more congregation on the trails and parks). People may not be coming into the city from the suburbs for work, but people are certainly continuing on their normal routine without any interruption.

I think I'll feel safer after a 40 minute drive up into a more nature-oriented place.

[ProudModerate2]

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.
...

Does this sound like a serious comment of yours?
You describe your commitment to your religion, and then end it by saying that you may need to possibly shoot people.
WTF is that? What level of morality is in your soul?
I didnt even know you were religious. Or Is this just another (poor) troll attempt from you?
And if you are religious (Christian I assume), shame on you for wanting to "exercise your other rights," just because you cant go to mass.

[It’s so Joever]

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.
...

Does this sound like a serious comment of yours?
You describe your commitment to your religion, and then end it by saying that you may need to possibly shoot people.
WTF is that?
I didnt even know you were religious. Is this another (poor) troll attempt from you?
And if you are religious (Christian I assume), shame on you for wanting to "exercise your other rights," just because you cant go to mass.

Please know he doesn’t speak for most of us religious people, who value the lives and wellbeing of our community first.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.
...

Does this sound like a serious comment of yours?
You describe your commitment to your religion, and then end it by saying that you may need to possibly shoot people.
WTF is that? What level of morality is in your soul?
I didnt even know you were religious. Is this another (poor) troll attempt from you?
And if you are religious (Christian I assume), shame on you for wanting to "exercise your other rights," just because you cant go to mass.

I have never missed mass and never intend to. No one will infringe on that right. It seems the churches are closed up and down the east coast. Standing outside and streaming it is.