Israel-Gaza war

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

You're American.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

You're American.

Yep. And I am now using the term Judea and Samaria, just as many Republican politicians do.

You say that as if it doesn't undermine your position.

[All Along The Watchtower]

It's fascinating to me how people will talk about whether Israel is a democracy or not and then in the same breath talk about how Hamas is the democratic choice of the people of Gaza. Hamas won an election in 2006, hosted a coup, severed Gaza off from the rest of the Palestinian Authority, rejected the idea of holding another election or reuniting with the West Bank, and has ignored or worked to sidetrack any peace negotiations held by the actual Palestinian government in Ramallah ever since. But sure, Hamas' Gaza is a democracy because they won a vote 17 years ago and have installed a regime of autarky and starvation and made sure no one could vote them out over it ever since.

It's wild to me that so many people in this thread are treating Hamas, rather than Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate face of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have a leader and they have a government and it wants no part in this stupid war! This is on Hamas.

Mahmoud Abbas’s four-year term as President expired almost 15 years ago. Not sure how much legitimacy he has within the territories the PA governs (in collaboration with the Israeli military; one could be forgiven for believing that this undermines his legitimacy among the Palestinians).

There’s international legitimacy and there’s domestic legitimacy. We see many divides between the two between Israelis and the international community (broadly defined)—is it the West Bank or Judea and Samaria? The same can be and is also true of the Palestinians.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I somehow doubt that King Abdullah II wants to have more Palestinians to govern (or indeed, refugees from other conflicts).

[All Along The Watchtower]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

Why don't you answer my question?

--> "How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?"

None who are not citizens, of course. But that's an irrelevant question, just like asking "What % of Mexicans in Mexico can vote in American elections?"

The United States is not occupying Mexico as far as I am aware.

Okay, let me re-frame this discussion. Are you advocating that Israeli annex the West Bank, and grant citizenship to all Palestinians there?

Israel can either (1.) annex the West Bank and grant citizenship to Palestinians there or (2.) leave the West Bank

Do you understand that the Palestinians and Arab governments would violently object to 1, and that as today demonstrates 2 is not feasible?

Option 3. Jordan gets the West Bank, or at least most of it.

Unless you have a time machine to 1967 this (or its companion "Gaza to Egypt") is a non-starter because the Jordanians are TERRIFIED of this prospect (likely meaning revolution in Jordan and a Palestinian majority in their population) just like the Egyptians are desperate to not have 2 million mouths to feed in Gaza.

There's that story of Trump calling up the Jordanian King and nearly giving him a heart attack by saying "Good news, you're getting the West Bank!" when he was up on his peace deal attempt.

Ninth dimensional chess:

- Jordan gets the West Bank
- Palestinian majority in Jordan, revolution topples the Hashemite monarchy
- MBS: “This is my chance to take control of Islam’s Holy Sites in Jerusalem and finally finish what my grandfather started!”
- Israel-Saudi normalization finally, Jordan no longer exists

[All Along The Watchtower]

Israel started it by being a force for British colonization, stop using B. Diddy incorrectly

Pathetic sh-tposting even for you.

[All Along The Watchtower]

It is looking horrifying and bleak yes.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Let's not forget how they were celebrating in the streets of Gaza on 9/11.

Good to hear the US is moving the Gerald Ford nearby to ensure the defense of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Hopefully it will deter Iran from making any stupid decisions.

Oh, don't go down this rabbit hole.
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1

Better articles:

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/08/nyregion/5-young-israelis-caught-in-net-of-suspicion.html

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/who-were-the-dancing-israelis-of-911-66kkm1alwQldXDyVmIwDMc

[All Along The Watchtower]

The average intelligence of an Atlas poster goes down 90% when talking about Israel and Palestine.
It is similar to the effect of taking stupid pills.

It’s not just Atlas posters.

[All Along The Watchtower]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1711397208648491033
Palestinian Islamic Jihad claims responsibility for today's attacks from along the Lebanon border.

Aren’t they a close ally/proxy of Iran?

[All Along The Watchtower]

AP reports that the Egyptian government repeatedly tried to warn Israel that Hamas was planning this invasion - that Netanyahu knew what was coming but still failed to stop it

Allies who share intelligence with Israel said security agencies were misreading reality.

An Egyptian intelligence official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of Jewish West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown in the face of a rising tide of violence there over the last 18 months.

“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media.

I suspected as much. Israel has close intelligence relationships with several Arab governments, Egypt being one of their closest. And the Egyptians would have very obvious reasons for keeping a close eye on Gaza.

This suggests that Israeli political leadership has made it clear that they don’t want to hear bad news from their own intelligence and security services, perhaps especially about Gaza. And said services have been too busy focused on protecting settlers in the West Bank even as Bibi has been high on his own supply about the Abraham Accords and the prospects of diplomatic recognition with Saudi Arabia.

Only time will tell whether he and anyone else in the Government will be held responsible for this lethally catastrophic failure to protect Israel from these attacks—in the meantime, there already are accusations flying around about an anti-patriotic “Deep State” within Shin Bet and other agencies.

[All Along The Watchtower]

So Hamas doesn’t just want all Jews to die, but all Palestinians as well, at least in Gaza.

muh anti-colonial resistance

[All Along The Watchtower]

The centre left tends to engage in campism, this isn’t new this is basic WWI history.

Ironic that you of all people would disparage people for engaging in campism.

[All Along The Watchtower]

So, what happens if Hezbollah decides to launch a massive attack of their own while Israel is busy trying to destroy Hamas? Or the West Bank erupts to the extent that the PA’s security forces are completely overwhelmed?

It’s pretty clear that Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and their sponsors in Tehran are far better at sophisticated, well-coordinated operations than the Arab armies of the 20th century who tried and failed to destroy Israel by waging war on multiple fronts. I suppose that’s the advantage of highly motivated networks of non-state actors (with plenty of crucial support from a highly motivated state actor in the Islamic Republic, of course) with basically the same goals, as opposed to the corrupt and incompetent regular armies of a bunch of rival dictators. In any event, I’m genuinely worried about multiple fronts here.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Journo cites channel 13 Hebrew, confirms the government was warned (and lied about not being warned):

https://twitter.com/lisang/status/1711824708746838214
Considering this and his 2019 comments on the need to support Hamas to harm the Palestinian movement, there is no sensible scenario in which Netanyahu benefits from a rally-around-the-flag effect. However, we're living in an age of stupid scenarios, and the Israeli electorate often makes terrible choices.

I’ve seen multiple people Online saying “this is Israel’s 9/11” or words to that effect. Presumably they meant that a right-wing government ignored clear warnings of an impending terrorist attack on their country and as a result, thousands of their citizens died?

[All Along The Watchtower]

We are at the point where Palestine has been able to hold onto Israeli territory for more than half a week, with no end in sight that Palestinian offensives are going to end this week and that most soldiers have embedded and fortified their position in southern Israel. What paralysis is this that the Israeli army refuses to quickly move to secure its own cities.

The offensive into Israel was launched by Hamas -an armed militia based in Gaza- not by Palestine. Neither Palestine as an entity ruled by the "Authority" nor Palestine as a people, only Hamas.

Agreed, and to the extent there is any state involvement it’d be from Tehran and Doha, with the support of the former’s state allies in Damascus and “deep state” allies in Beirut and to a lesser extent, Baghdad and Sana’a.

Point being, the de facto government of Gaza is completely dependent on foreign actors with ulterior motives—actors who have have demonstrated little if any interest in there being a Palestinian state, as noted by their undermining of the PA by supporting the Islamist gang ruling the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip. And they clearly don’t believe it’s in their interest for Israelis and Palestinians to live side by side in peace and as equals. I suppose that kind of thing is to be expected from terrorist groups and the states who harbor and sponsor them.

[All Along The Watchtower]

This was isn't good for my health at all. Mainly because I have to see so many Ben Shapiro videos. Ben Shapiro is an evil man.

Ben Shapiro>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tucker Carlson

A zionist justifying slaughtering kids and won't fight for his homeland is not better than a man hoping for peace

This sounds dangerously close to a "dual loyalty" argument...

I say Evangelical Christians have dual loyalty all the time and no one bats an eye. Unlike the Evangelicals, I do not believe that the vast, vast majority of Jewish Americans have dual loyalty. I am, however, unsure about Ben Shapiro.

I think the real point to be made here is that Americans, like a lot of people, have a tendency to project onto Israel-Palestine their own neuroses, irrespective of which “side” they support.

[All Along The Watchtower]

(2) Literally just kill everybody in Gaza. And this is not an acceptable option by the standards of the 2020s (or really any time after the mid-20th century).

This is the logical conclusion of Israeli policy, because they have no plan for the Palestinians other than them surrendering their claims to the land. That won’t happen—but then, neither will the murder of everyone in Gaza, realistically. To reiterate: there is no plan. This is just retribution and open-ended collective punishment, not a serious strategy.

And yes, the US is absolutely responsible as an enabler and guarantor of these crimes. Of course, we’ve done the same thing since 9/11–the “Global War on Terror” is ongoing.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Netanyahu again blamed the 10/7 attack on his generals. Had to delete the tweet in embarrassment/shame. At least Chamberlain had the patriotic balls to resign when his credibility evaporated lol

God what a POS.

[All Along The Watchtower]

There are, in fact, several things Biden could do:

* He could impose a no-fly zone and obliterate the Israeli Airforce

Huh?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CybLhohSTqf/

That is like a Nazi sympathiser asking the USA and Great Britain to start fighting each other on the day of the Normandy invasion in WW2.

At this stage, a more viable option is for President Biden to withdraw funding of $1 Billion annually to Egypt until they open the Rafah border and start taking Gazan refugees.

Rinse and repeat with Jordan.

At that stage, would you be surprised to learn of any potential links between Egypt and Hamas?

Jordan has absorbed so many refugees over the past 75 years (not merely Palestinians but, in more recent years, Iraqis and Syrians) that the number of refugees and their descendants vastly outstrips the "indigenous" population.

“Why don’t you just make Jordan the Palestinian state?”

Hashemite monarchy: —….—

[All Along The Watchtower]

Saw on the news that the Houthis (One of the three factions controlling parts of Yemen at present) have "declared war" on Israel. Is this real, and if so, does it matter? Yemen isn't exactly close to Israel.

They launched missiles at Israel that were intercepted over the Red Sea.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yemens-houthis-enter-mideast-fray-hardening-spillover-fears-2023-10-31/

[All Along The Watchtower]

https://twitter.com/gaza_report/status/1720457311951499372
If not for (some of them) being blinded by the ideology of Palestinian nationalism, it should be pretty easy for the Palestinians to see that the destruction of the modern conception of Palestine is in their best interests as well.

Funny, we have no data showing us what Gazans think since an election decades ago, but here we have proof that close to 50% of Israelis have the same attitude towards civilians as Hamas (with another 35% close behind). Yet it's the Gazan civilians we're supposed to be worried about?

I mean, we have polls. I guess I would trust the Israeli ones more than polls conducted under a dictatorship, but still.

https://twitter.com/tom_sadeh/status/1714733322931167356
Anyway, "Not so much" is literally the correct answer for prosecuting a war and someone who gives a different answer is either so supremely hubristic and confident of victory that he has no respect for the enemy -- and forces like this invariably lose eventually -- or just insane.

Comments like these leave the distinct impression that the pro-Israel side is not in fact morally superior.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Whilst such poll findings are sobering, they are roughly what you would expect in the circumstances - I have little doubt that surveys of Allied countries in WW2 would have shown very similar figures.

And the Allied countries would've been wrong to think that.

They. Are. Civilians.

And indeed some in those countries said that at the time, they were a minority though. The point is that this tends to be the case in wars, and is indeed a reason why they should be avoided if possible.

Netanyahu wanted and needed this war, just like he needed Hamas to undermine the PA, divide Palestinians, and ensure continued support for Israeli policy in the West, especially the US. It’s horrifying that Israeli and Palestinian civilians have been paying the price.