Israel-Gaza war

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I would like to apologize and clarify: when I said Snowstalker should jump off the nearest rooftop I limited his choices.  Off the top of a skyscraper or in front of a car are also acceptable options.

You don't seem to get this incensed about the multiple posters who have called for ethnic cleansing of a de facto city-state of over 2 million people, half of them children.

[Horus]

Amnesty International is pro open borders and not a serious organization. There are like half a million superior sources.

[Vosem]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

The problem with a "Palestinian Authority as an actual state with enforcement powers" is the genocidal agenda, on which Fatah is waffly but not, historically, totally opposed. The solution here, again, is a Palestinian movement that learns to explicitly see itself as a tool of the Israeli state.

[jojoju1998]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

The problem with a "Palestinian Authority as an actual state with enforcement powers" is the genocidal agenda, on which Fatah is waffly but not, historically, totally opposed. The solution here, again, is a Palestinian movement that learns to explicitly see itself as a tool of the Israeli state.


That's a total non starter and you know it. The Palestinians would never go for something that denies their existence, and would lead to more extremism down the long run.


Then again, there isn't other options too. We don't have any viable solutions.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

They were declared in response to an ongoing military occupation. I know what you've been doing here but you can't twist this one.

[Vosem]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

The problem with a "Palestinian Authority as an actual state with enforcement powers" is the genocidal agenda, on which Fatah is waffly but not, historically, totally opposed. The solution here, again, is a Palestinian movement that learns to explicitly see itself as a tool of the Israeli state.


That's a total non starter and you know it. The Palestinians would never go for something that denies their existence, and would lead to more extremism down the long run.


Then again, there isn't other options too. We don't have any viable solutions.

It should not deny their existence -- that would be a horrible crime, actually -- but the analogy I am drawing is to white South Africans. There needs to be an acknowledgement within the community that their movement has been a criminal one for decades and that their enemies have been on the side of good for that entire period, and ideally this would include a coalition government along the lines of 1994-1999 and some episode like the merger of the National Party into the ANC. At that point there can be discussions regarding autonomy or independence (at least prior to this conflict, Gaza as an independent city-state was quite reasonable); similarly in South Africa I think independence for western Cape would probably be good if it can be accomplished on friendly terms.

For people to accept being subject to a Truth and Reconciliation process, they actually do need to have some sliver of power. But they have to actually and sincerely support the new order and it is one in which it is clear that their movement 'lost' and where they don't mourn it.

[jojoju1998]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

The problem with a "Palestinian Authority as an actual state with enforcement powers" is the genocidal agenda, on which Fatah is waffly but not, historically, totally opposed. The solution here, again, is a Palestinian movement that learns to explicitly see itself as a tool of the Israeli state.


That's a total non starter and you know it. The Palestinians would never go for something that denies their existence, and would lead to more extremism down the long run.


Then again, there isn't other options too. We don't have any viable solutions.

It should not deny their existence -- that would be a horrible crime, actually -- but the analogy I am drawing is to white South Africans. There needs to be an acknowledgement within the community that their movement has been a criminal one for decades and that their enemies have been on the side of good for that entire period, and ideally this would include a coalition government along the lines of 1994-1999 and some episode like the merger of the National Party into the ANC. At that point there can be discussions regarding autonomy or independence (at least prior to this conflict, Gaza as an independent city-state was quite reasonable); similarly in South Africa I think independence for western Cape would probably be good if it can be accomplished on friendly terms.

For people to accept being subject to a Truth and Reconciliation process, they actually do need to have some sliver of power. But they have to actually and sincerely support the new order and it is one in which it is clear that their movement 'lost' and where they don't mourn it.

But it's not as simple as that though. The South African situation doesn't have the 2,000 year history of religous, sectional, conflict.


The Holy Land which three major religions see as crucial to their religous faith.

[Bacon King]

I understand you're upset but I strongly encourage you to delete your posts referencing suicide

for very obvious reasons it's not okay to say that sort of thing here - and besides this argument is not at all worth getting banned over

i suggest getting some fresh air and stepping away from the forum for a day or two, on your own terms

[Vosem]

Again--what does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else? They're reactionary Islamists whose presence at the forefront of the Palestinian movement is both shameful and a direct consequence of Shamir's own propping-up of them against a PLO which has since recognized Israel and gotten nothing for it.

Twofold answer here:

1. You have been more than happy to offer strong condemnations of both the Israeli state (justifiable) and Israeli citizens (rather suspect amidst a genuinely horrific terror attack). “What does my condemnation of Hamas do for Israelis and Palestinians” is a complete non sequitur - we both understand that many Israelis are deeply racist against Palestinians, but the way you frame it here takes you genuinely close to apologizing for the massacres of attempting to redirect the conversation.

2. There is definitely blame for the Israeli Right and Far Right here, particularly in propping up Hamas to support their political goals. However, it should be noted that Hamas is not merely a product of outside circumstances and reflects a worrying trend of extreme political actors seizing power for their own personal gain at the expense of the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is the ultimate aggressor and the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as opposed to the broader Arab-Israeli conflict, which essentially ended in 1973) is rooted in the occupation. The fact that Hamas was able to seize power against a weak Palestinian Authority was possible because the Palestinian Authority is not allowed to be an actual state with enforcement powers!

No? Both Intifadas were explicitly declared by the Palestinians. You can consider them justified attacks -- I think this is totally ridiculous and that even stuff like WW2 had more shades of grey, but whatever -- but it certainly wasn't Israel who launched them.

They were declared in response to an ongoing military occupation. I know what you've been doing here but you can't twist this one.

We've had this exact conversation before! We can go over the points. Your perspective here is only reasonable if you adopt standards that would make a mockery of many other conflicts, like immigration under colonialism being inherently improper or a poorer ethnicity being inherently oppressed. I think once you clear all this off Israel being morally in the right against the Palestinians is very clear-cut stuff.

(I'll probably write a response to GMantis about international law -- where, like, if you take stuff literally you come to the conclusion that Israel committed serious crimes against the settler movement -- but if you prefer consensus and you interpret 'consensus' in particular ways you can reach his conclusions. Ultimately the issue is that international law does not have teeth and nobody really tries to interpret it in consistent ways.)

Amnesty International is pro open borders and not a serious organization. There are like half a million superior sources.

Up there with the SPLC in having managed to maintain good vibes from an earlier era even though they've adopted a crapton of actually racist nonsense.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Prompt for Vosem: the residents of a West Bank village in Area C learn that their village is about to be bulldozed to make way for a new Jewish settlement. This is, of course, big government socialism seizing private property. How should they respond?

[Bacon King]

Vosem, Snowstalker, jojoju, can you guys please take this debate to the other thread

this one is specifically for covering the current events of the present conflict, not relitigating the notoriously contentious underlying causes. if y'all keep doing so, it'll just drown out the posts with actual relevant information

[Vosem]

But it's not as simple as that though. The South African situation doesn't have the 2,000 year history of religous, sectional, conflict.


The Holy Land which three major religions see as crucial to their religous faith.

The issue is that the white South African political movements saw themselves as part of a larger bloc of nations, and those nations were pushing them to behave reasonably. The Palestinian political movements see themselves as part of a larger bloc of nations, and those nations just don't.

It is not a serious suggestion in the sense that I obviously know it won't happen. I think this is what it would take to make peace, and the alternative is this happening eventually after some large Israeli victory, or sequence thereof, in which a large fraction of the people of Gaza really do die because they have nowhere to go. (Similarly, Germany could have surrendered in 1944-45 and allowed itself to become a tool of the Allied Powers. Japan did do this! Instead there was a military defeat, featuring justified carpet-bombings in places like Dresden, and then Germany became a tool of the Allied Powers anyway. This was tragic and could have been avoided given a different attitude among the German leadership. But then if that attitude had existed they may never have started the war in the first place.)

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

From 2019, before the current extreme violence but after several waves of Hamas rocket attacks that killed Israeli civilians:
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619?s=20
I haven't made anything up.

[Aurelius2]

Yeah if the above is accurate those responsible have some things to answer for too. Accelerationism is stupid and trying to "heighten the contradictions" usually just backfires on the heighteners.

[Vosem]

From 2019, before the current extreme violence but after several waves of Hamas rocket attacks that killed Israeli civilians:
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1711329340804186619?s=20
I haven't made anything up.

No, clearly the present government is also substantially culpable in not reoccupying/destroying the territory earlier in the 2010s in response to rhetoric, and the former Sharon-Likud/Kadima government is also culpable in withdrawing from the territory and also ethnically cleansing its Jews. (Sharon's stroke, which almost certainly prevented a similar withdrawal from much of the West Bank, is an underrated pivotal 21st-century historical moment; had he ruled longer the present conflict might have ended up far bloodier).

I repeat again: I'm much more anti-Palestinian than pro-Israeli, and I think reasonable people have to be. The Israeli government and its predecessors have messed up in numerous ways which allowed for this moment to happen. (That doesn't mean you shouldn't support them now -- it was reasonable to support the western Allies in 1939-1940 even if you could note that the whole thing would've been avoided if they'd stopped Hitler from remilitarizing the Rhineland.)

[jaichind]

USA defense stocks surge

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

USA defense stocks surge

Not unreasonable expectations from investors here.

[Aurelius2]

From the right, Smotrich urges an emergency unity government with no preconditions. Ben Gvir also supports a unity government, but with a condition: "saying in a statement this morning that he will agree to a unity government only if its 'stated goal is the total defeat of Hamas and the shattering of its military and political might.'"

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/smotrich-urges-emergency-unity-government-with-gantz-ben-gvir-sets-condition/

Surprisingly reasonable - I'm pretty sure everyone to the right of Meretz is in full agreement on this. After seeing the headline I half expected the "condition" to be legalizing an assortment of hilltop settlements or something.

[KaiserDave]

Ben-Gvir is not without political tact when necessary. He's dangerous that way.

[Bacon King]

AP reports that the Egyptian government repeatedly tried to warn Israel that Hamas was planning this invasion - that Netanyahu knew what was coming but still failed to stop it

Allies who share intelligence with Israel said security agencies were misreading reality.

An Egyptian intelligence official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of Jewish West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown in the face of a rising tide of violence there over the last 18 months.

“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media.

[Vosem]

Big Stalin trusted Hitler moment, honestly.

Sorry, couldn't find an English-subtitled version of Gorodnitsky's Molotov-Ribbentrop waltz. Might need to create one myself for reference.

[Bacon King]

AP reports that the Egyptian government repeatedly tried to warn Israel that Hamas was planning this invasion - that Netanyahu knew what was coming but still failed to stop it

Allies who share intelligence with Israel said security agencies were misreading reality.

An Egyptian intelligence official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of Jewish West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown in the face of a rising tide of violence there over the last 18 months.

“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media.

for what it's worth, Netanyahu's office has issued a statement denying it

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

AP reports that the Egyptian government repeatedly tried to warn Israel that Hamas was planning this invasion - that Netanyahu knew what was coming but still failed to stop it

Allies who share intelligence with Israel said security agencies were misreading reality.

An Egyptian intelligence official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of Jewish West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown in the face of a rising tide of violence there over the last 18 months.

“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media.

The Times of Israel also is reporting this.

[Middle-aged Europe]

AP reports that the Egyptian government repeatedly tried to warn Israel that Hamas was planning this invasion - that Netanyahu knew what was coming but still failed to stop it

Allies who share intelligence with Israel said security agencies were misreading reality.

An Egyptian intelligence official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of Jewish West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown in the face of a rising tide of violence there over the last 18 months.

“We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to discuss the content of sensitive intelligence discussions with the media.

for what it's worth, Netanyahu's office has issued a statement denying it

What else is he gonna do?

"Yup, I f***ed that one up."  ?

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1711397208648491033

Palestinian Islamic Jihad claims responsibility for today's attacks from along the Lebanon border.