Israel-Gaza war

[Libertas Vel Mors]

As for the democracy bit, millions of Arabs have the right and have voted in Israeli elections. Residents of Judea and Samaria primarily live outside of Israeli occupation in Zones A and B, and have the right to vote in Palestinian elections, as their representatives demanded and received under the Oslo Accords. The question re: Judea and Samaria is not one of democracy, but rather of whether that government (the Palestinian Authority) should be made into a state and whether Israel should withdraw from Judea and Samaria.

[Aurelius2]

Separately, I think the 24 divisions number is misleading. Judea and Samaria have a far larger border with Israel and Israel actually controls the region (and if it didn't, we would probably be seeing this attack also emerge from there), so of course more troops will be located in Judea and Samaria. The question is not why 24 divisions were in Judea and Samaria, but why Israeli troops along the border were taken by surprise and why Hamas was able to make a breach in the first place.

Additionally, I actually don't know how many of these units are in the Israeli armed forces altogether, so I don't know how big of a fraction those 24 are. It's also the case that even in a situation like the current one, you need to have at least some units stationed in the north in case Hezbollah decides to join in, and some in Judea and Samaria like you say. Of course, the day-to-day presence to protect the settlers and keep the usual settler-vs-Palestinian tensions under control will have to take a backseat to more urgent anti-terrorist operations for now. I imagine the units still deployed in the settlement blocs, if any, are more focused on preventing terrorist groups in the area from joining the conflict than on their usual day-to-day duties.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

So I partied pretty hard last night without any news on at all. Last thing I heard before I went to sleep at 5:00 A.M.-ish was that a single woman had been killed in a rocket strike. I literally thought to myself "long time since I've heard that" because the Iron Dome usually handles these rockets. Wake up 12 hours later to find 300+ dead and hostages taken. Crazy stuff.

The moderator warning on top of the thread suggests I've missed some good Atlas drama though.

[pppolitics]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

[Libertas Vel Mors]

So I partied pretty hard last night without any news on at all. Last thing I heard before I went to sleep at 5:00 A.M.-ish was that a single woman had been killed in a rocket strike. I literally thought to myself "long time since I've heard that" because the Iron Dome usually handles these rockets. Wake up 12 hours later to find 300+ dead and hostages taken. Crazy stuff.

The moderator warning on top of the thread suggests I've missed some good Atlas drama though.

Partying when we haven't had a fear and loathing update? Very disappointing.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

(Also, plenty of pro-Israel non-Israeli politicians use the term so its really not an international problem, just a "this is the normal term" problem).

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

[Pericles]

Israel is clearly the more sympathetic side in this conflict. Supporting the rights of the Palestinian people shouldn't mean supporting genocidal terrorists.

Well, Israel is already on track to exceed the civilian death toll from the initial Hamas attack. So I don’t see how they have moral high ground on that front.

It's not illegal for civilians to die from your military attacks. It is illegal to launch attacks without considering civilians, or worse, deliberately kill civilians as Hamas does. Taking civilian hostages is also a war crime. Israel has been more restrained-usually they attack military targets but in one of the most densely populated areas of the world and when Hamas conduct operations in civilian areas, there will be civilian casualties. If Israel were to just massacre the Gaza population then they'd be at Hamas's level but that isn't how they have behaved.

Bibi is implying that might change.

If Israel commit lots of war crimes they lose the moral high ground, I hope they're not stupid enough to do that. My impression is that this time Israel will feel it needs to eliminate the threat from Hamas and not just contain it. Reoccupation of Gaza will be a huge mess for Israel but it looks unavoidable.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

So I partied pretty hard last night without any news on at all. Last thing I heard before I went to sleep at 5:00 A.M.-ish was that a single woman had been killed in a rocket strike. I literally thought to myself "long time since I've heard that" because the Iron Dome usually handles these rockets. Wake up 12 hours later to find 300+ dead and hostages taken. Crazy stuff.

The moderator warning on top of the thread suggests I've missed some good Atlas drama though.

Partying when we haven't had a fear and loathing update? Very disappointing.

I'll get one up today

Thanks for reading though!

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

(Also, plenty of pro-Israel politicians use the term so its really not an international problem, just a "this is the normal term" problem).

As a political nationalist myself, I applaud you for calling that, and I am not even that particularly pro-Israel.

[The Mikado]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

None because that isn't Israel, as every map printed in the last 56 years will tell you. They are disputed territories awaiting permanent adjudication and are under the authority of the Palestinian Authority and the military supervision of Israel. Arabs who are citizens of Israel  and live inside Israel can and do vote but Arabs who live outside of Israel and aren't citizens of Israel can't vote. I'd think this distinction would be obvious.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

None because that isn't Israel, as every map printed in the last 56 years will tell you. They are disputed territories awaiting permanent adjudication and are under the authority of the Palestinian Authority and the military supervision of Israel. Arabs who are citizens of Israel  and live inside Israel can and do vote but Arabs who live outside of Israel and aren't citizens of Israel can't vote. I'd think this distinction would be obvious.

Again, the alternative would be Israeli annexation of Judea and Samaria, which would be way more unpopular with the Palestinian residents there. People complaining that Palestinian residents of the West Bank can't vote in Israeli elections don't understand that no one wants that (actually, except for some Israeli nationalists who want it in the long term because they support integrating Judea and Samaria).

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

You're American.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

You're American.

Yep. And I am now using the term Judea and Samaria, just as many Republican politicians do.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

A huge amount of Israelis are saying that all the Israeli Army was in the West Bank giving support to illegal occupations there. Which is why the attack from Gaza was a “surprise” and so powerful.

That means, the Hamas attack managing to be this successful was a direct result from the priorities that the Hard-Right government of Israel has in favoring their Religious Extremists instead of looking after the security of the country and their people.

Thank you, Red Velvet, for your wise and levelheaded take on a deeply controversial geopolitical issue. I mean it.

[Aurelius2]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

None because that isn't Israel, as every map printed in the last 56 years will tell you. They are disputed territories awaiting permanent adjudication and are under the authority of the Palestinian Authority and the military supervision of Israel. Arabs who are citizens of Israel  and live inside Israel can and do vote but Arabs who live outside of Israel and aren't citizens of Israel can't vote. I'd think this distinction would be obvious.

Again, the alternative would be Israeli annexation of Judea and Samaria, which would be way more unpopular with the Palestinian residents there. People complaining that Palestinian residents of the West Bank can't vote in Israeli elections don't understand that no one wants that (actually, except for some Israeli nationalists who want it in the long term because they support integrating Judea and Samaria).

Yes, back in the 1980s Israel began offering citizenship to Palestinians resident in East Jerusalem. Only a tiny fraction - I believe around 5% - have taken them up on the offer.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

You're American.

Yep. And I am now using the term Judea and Samaria, just as many Republican politicians do.

You say that as if it doesn't undermine your position.

[pppolitics]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

Why don't you answer my question?

--> "How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?"

[The Mikado]

It's fascinating to me how people will talk about whether Israel is a democracy or not and then in the same breath talk about how Hamas is the democratic choice of the people of Gaza. Hamas won an election in 2006, hosted a coup, severed Gaza off from the rest of the Palestinian Authority, rejected the idea of holding another election or reuniting with the West Bank, and has ignored or worked to sidetrack any peace negotiations held by the actual Palestinian government in Ramallah ever since. But sure, Hamas' Gaza is a democracy because they won a vote 17 years ago and have installed a regime of autarky and starvation and made sure no one could vote them out over it ever since.

It's wild to me that so many people in this thread are treating Hamas, rather than Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas, as the legitimate face of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have a leader and they have a government and it wants no part in this stupid war! This is on Hamas.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

Why don't you answer my question?

--> "How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?"

None who are not citizens, of course. But that's an irrelevant question, just like asking "What % of Mexicans in Mexico can vote in American elections?"

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Using the term "Judea and Samaria" on an international forum is dickish behavior.

I historically used the term West Bank. I will no longer do so after today.

Don't you live in North Carolina?

Yeah. Why would that be relevant?

You're American.

Yep. And I am now using the term Judea and Samaria, just as many Republican politicians do.

You say that as if it doesn't undermine your position.

I don't think it in any way undermines my position, no.

[pppolitics]

then in the same breath talk about how Hamas is the democratic choice of the people of Gaza

Who said that?

...certainly wasn't me

[pppolitics]

Israel is not a democracy.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Israel is a democracy only in name.

Total lie.

How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?

All Arab-Israelis can vote in Israeli elections, and all Palestinian residents of Judea and Samaria can vote in Palestinian Authority elections. The alternative would be for Israel to annex Judea and Samaria -- do you want Israel to do that?

Why don't you answer my question?

--> "How many percent of Palestinians in West Bank can participate in Israel's elections?"

None who are not citizens, of course. But that's an irrelevant question, just like asking "What % of Mexicans in Mexico can vote in American elections?"

The United States is not occupying Mexico as far as I am aware.