Israel-Gaza war

[Comrade Funk]

The deliberate killing of children and infants is horrible in any context, of course.

If you ever find yourself in a situation where you are compelled to say this explicitly, it might be a good time to reevaluate some things.

"Why aren't you condemning Hamas's war crimes?"
"I condemn Hamas's war crimes."
"Why did you feel the need to condemn Hamas's war crimes?"

"Why aren't you condemning Hamas's war crimes?"

”There’s no evidence war crimes were committed. ‘They’ have been known to lie about crimes committed against them before.”

One day later

”See, the sources are walking it back. ‘They’ clearly made it all up!”

One day later

”Even the President of the United States is lying about seeing photos of the victims. It’s a massive conspiracy, obviously.”

Photos of the victims are made public

”I condemn [generic description of war crimes]…
How dare you question my condemnation of [generic description of war crimes]?"

Yes, that's called healthy skepticism that can be moved one way or another in light of hard evidence (and yes, the claims were walked back by both the IDF and the White House at different times). It's now clear that a Hamas attack on Kfar Aza deliberately murdered children and infants, despite the details previously being fuzzy.  

Every single one of you would have bought WMDs in Iraq hook, line, and sinker. Some of you would have been among the Good Liberals who called for glassing the entire Middle East, I'm sure.

You're making assumptions

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

The deliberate killing of children and infants is horrible in any context, of course.

If you ever find yourself in a situation where you are compelled to say this explicitly, it might be a good time to reevaluate some things.

"Why aren't you condemning Hamas's war crimes?"
"I condemn Hamas's war crimes."
"Why did you feel the need to condemn Hamas's war crimes?"

"Why aren't you condemning Hamas's war crimes?"

”There’s no evidence war crimes were committed. ‘They’ have been known to lie about crimes committed against them before.”

One day later

”See, the sources are walking it back. ‘They’ clearly made it all up!”

One day later

”Even the President of the United States is lying about seeing photos of the victims. It’s a massive conspiracy, obviously.”

Photos of the victims are made public

”I condemn [generic description of war crimes]…
How dare you question my condemnation of [generic description of war crimes]?"

Yes, that's called healthy skepticism that can be moved one way or another in light of hard evidence (and yes, the claims were walked back by both the IDF and the White House at different times). It's now clear that a Hamas attack on Kfar Aza deliberately murdered children and infants, despite the details previously being fuzzy.  

Every single one of you would have bought WMDs in Iraq hook, line, and sinker. Some of you would have been among the Good Liberals who called for glassing the entire Middle East, I'm sure.

Why don’t you ask people what they actually thought or did during the leadup to the Iraq War? Many people on here were alive during that time.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

As if any of you are acting in good faith? I'm being Kafka trapped.

[Cashew]

I'm gonna be real, as someone who wholeheartedly supports Palestinian liberation, I find the constant arguments over the baby beheadings totally counterproductive and really emblematic of the failures of the pro-Palestinian left here. This is just me personally, but I suspect I am not in the minority when I say that I am mostly against baby killing in itself – the issue of whether the babies were beheaded is of comparatively minor importance. Therefore, when I see person 1 go "Hamas beheaded babies" and person 2 go "that's not true, they definitely killed babies, but there's no confirmation of beheadings" I instantly become less sympathetic to person 2. Anyone killing babies is bad and doesn't need to be defended.

The problem with that mindset is that if person 1 is being dishonest and trying to inflame the situation while being unchallenged over minor details, they can retain credibility which they can use to escalate to geater and greater levels of disinformation. In this case no propaganda is needed as Hamas is villanous enough on it's own, but the prinicple that both sides, especially when involving governments should be assumed to be lying unless they peovide tangible evidence is not a bad one.

[kwabbit]

I can understand denial over the baby story because you don't want to believe that someone would commit such an atrocity. I can also understand denial because you have sincere belief in Palestinian liberation/statehood and are worried that the story would discredit the movement. But some of the denial, mostly among the American online left, was simply because they wanted Israel to be discredited and mocked.

I wouldn't even say that this section of the online left is anti-Zionist or anti-Semitic necessarily. The hatred is specifically focused on the State of Israel, but it isn't a result of ideology. Making cruel, tasteless remarks about Israel is simply a tribalistic rite of passage in these circles and the more cruel and tasteless the remarks, the more recognition one gets. Israel has been among the whipping boys of the left for a long time and often for good reason, yet the root cause of leftist opposition for Israel is not always what is causing actual leftist criticism for Israel.

The logic/chain of condemning Israel might have once been (and still is for many people) prioritizing human rights and equality -> leftist thinking -> learning about Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians -> condemning Israel. Nowadays, however, it's often feelings of alienation/bitterness -> seeking a radical ideology in search of an identity (leftism in the case) -> Ideology posits certain irredeemable, abhorrent villains -> hating Israel.

I don't doubt that many of the older leftists here belong to the former line of thinking and I don't doubt that even most of the tankies here came in with the former mindset, but the latter mindset is almost inescapable nowadays and permeates leftist discussion. A lot of these people don't even care about the plight of Palestinians, they don't care about about war crimes committed against civilians. Their only connection to this crisis runs through a channel of hatred and they will only interact with it through that lens.

[afleitch]

I'm gonna be real, as someone who wholeheartedly supports Palestinian liberation, I find the constant arguments over the baby beheadings totally counterproductive and really emblematic of the failures of the pro-Palestinian left here. This is just me personally, but I suspect I am not in the minority when I say that I am mostly against baby killing in itself – the issue of whether the babies were beheaded is of comparatively minor importance. Therefore, when I see person 1 go "Hamas beheaded babies" and person 2 go "that's not true, they definitely killed babies, but there's no confirmation of beheadings" I instantly become less sympathetic to person 2. Anyone killing babies is bad and doesn't need to be defended.

I think it's symptomatic of issues much wider than this conflict. All claims, particularly war crimes, require to be substantied in order to ensure that they go to court as the truth, if a court is 'called' to address them. Victims are not served by lack of clarity. They are not served by 'trial by social media.'

[Meclazine for Israel]

It is coming out that some of the Hamas killings on Saturday were broadcast on the victim's phones using Facebook live to their relatives.

This woman's grandmother was murdered and the video recording posted on their Facebook wall which then automatically triggers a notification to all of her relatives to watch.

Not sure whether Mark Zuckerberg could ever have imagined his software being utilised in such a fashion.

Mor Bayder

Grandmother Killed on Facebook Video

https://youtu.be/m_rOp4e43GQ

That is unforgivable.

[Aurelius2]

It's now clear that a Hamas attack on Kfar Aza deliberately murdered children and infants, despite the details previously being fuzzy.  

Nonsense. It was never "fuzzy" whether Hamas deliberately murdered babies and children at Kfar Aza. That was clear from the very beginning. It was only "fuzzy" whether or not they had been beheaded.

Apologists have been on an intense campaign the past couple days to gaslight us about the nature of the crimes against humanity Hamas committed on Saturday - the very same crimes Hamas itself was boasting about and proclaiming to the world that very day. I for one will not stand for it. Enough.

[Devout Centrist]

Every single one of you would have bought WMDs in Iraq hook, line, and sinker. Some of you would have been among the Good Liberals who called for glassing the entire Middle East, I'm sure.

You understand there’s a difference between professional skepticism and insisting that everyone is lying, yes? “Eventually we’ll know what was and wasn’t atrocity propaganda” is an insane thing to say when *1200 people*, mostly civilians, were already confirmed dead.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Every single one of you would have bought WMDs in Iraq hook, line, and sinker. Some of you would have been among the Good Liberals who called for glassing the entire Middle East, I'm sure.

You understand there’s a difference between professional skepticism and insisting that everyone is lying, yes? “Eventually we’ll know what was and wasn’t atrocity propaganda” is an insane thing to say when *1200 people*, mostly civilians, were already confirmed dead.

A number already passed in Gaza, excluding the Hamas fighters who were killed inside Israel.

Atrocity propaganda generally doesn't mean "X didn't happen", merely exaggeration in service of a cause (justifying the other side and its war crimes). The Rape of Belgium happened and Imperial Germany acted in a criminal manner but many of the most lurid claims were British fabrications.

[Logical]

Lapid has made a politically astute and morally correct choice I think. Gantz clearly didn’t learn from the last time he entered a unity coalition.

I believe that Gantz, as a former IDF chief of staff, feels a moral obligation to join a unity government, even though he knows the snake is going to bite him.

[Pericles]

https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1712497344376111346?t=N4vwfa5nP9qv0lHs...

Was Asquith responsible for the German population during the blockade?

The blockade of Germany was a war crime, yes.

[DavidB.]

Lapid has made a politically astute and morally correct choice I think. Gantz clearly didn’t learn from the last time he entered a unity coalition.

I believe that Gantz, as a former IDF chief of staff, feels a moral obligation to join a unity government, even though he knows the snake is going to bite him.

I don't think it will. It's clear he's keeping his distance from Netanyahu. This is just for the duration of the war. I believe Gantz, with his profile, is uniquely placed to come out of this in a better position, as the adult in the room, looking much better than Netanyahu.

[Devout Centrist]

Every single one of you would have bought WMDs in Iraq hook, line, and sinker. Some of you would have been among the Good Liberals who called for glassing the entire Middle East, I'm sure.

You understand there’s a difference between professional skepticism and insisting that everyone is lying, yes? “Eventually we’ll know what was and wasn’t atrocity propaganda” is an insane thing to say when *1200 people*, mostly civilians, were already confirmed dead.

A number already passed in Gaza, excluding the Hamas fighters who were killed inside Israel.

That is just as much a tragedy as what happened across the border a few days ago! I certainly don’t support air strikes on civilians or leveling wholesale apartment complexes. One Palestinian man on Twitter reported seeing several children’s heads gashed open near an apartment bombed by the IDF and I believe him!

Atrocity propaganda generally doesn't mean "X didn't happen", merely exaggeration in service of a cause (justifying the other side and its war crimes). The Rape of Belgium happened and Imperial Germany acted in a criminal manner but many of the most lurid claims were British fabrications.

Again, you weighed in early on that these claims were likely false or else gross exaggerations. You have an unfortunate tendency to minimize atrocity when it’s inconvenient for your argument.

[KaiserDave]

Lapid has made a politically astute and morally correct choice I think. Gantz clearly didn’t learn from the last time he entered a unity coalition.

I believe that Gantz, as a former IDF chief of staff, feels a moral obligation to join a unity government, even though he knows the snake is going to bite him.

I don't think it will. It's clear he's keeping his distance from Netanyahu. This is just for the duration of the war. I believe Gantz, with his profile, is uniquely placed to come out of this in a better position, as the adult in the room, looking much better than Netanyahu.

When the fog and shock of war has passed, and Netanyahu is brutally assailed for his catastrophic intelligence failures, I think it will be hard for Gantz to benefit from that, or make those attacks, when he joined the government.

[Aurelius2]

The formation of the narrow war cabinet means that Smotrich and Ben Gvir will not have a say over major war decisions. Judicial reform will be off the agenda for the duration of the emergency government. Gantz has been bitten before, yes, but this situation is quite obviously different and it seems that he has the maturity to recognize that the survival of the nation is more important than his own ego or personal feelings toward Netanyahu. As I see it Lapid is acting in a way that suggests his own political prospects are a significant motivator, which is disappointing in a national emergency of this scale. It's one thing to demand an emergency government excluding Otzma+RZ (perfectly reasonable). It's much less reasonable to refuse to join a government that contains the people responsible for the intelligence failure - while he is right that the failure is galling, I don't see how having Netanyahu and the current government resign *in the middle of this crisis* will help matters.

[It’s so Joever]

I don’t know if this also means me or not given my nuanced stance but I condemn unconditionally Hamas and have since the start just to make it clear for everyone here. War crimes are never acceptable full stop.

Neither government in power agrees with that sadly.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Speaking as someone who went on the record as HOPING the thing about the babies was atrocity propaganda, because the alternative was it being real and some of us are trying to maintain a sense of the human cost here rather than just what makes the other team look real bad, anyone acting like it somehow vindicates Hamas that most of the babies seem to have been burned or shot rather than beheaded desperately needs to take a hard look inward. And possibly go to confession and/or next year's Yom Kippur services.

[Edu]

As if any of you are acting in good faith? I'm being Kafka trapped.

lmao

[Aurelius2]

I don’t know if this also means me or not given my nuanced stance but I condemn unconditionally Hamas and have since the start just to make it clear for everyone here. War crimes are never acceptable full stop.

Neither government in power agrees with that sadly.

You are not one of the people I had in mind. Far from it.

[Comrade Funk]

27 Americans dead so far

[Angel of Death]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-palestinians-killed-after-settlers-said-to-ambush-funeral-in-west-bank/

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The deliberate killing of children and infants is horrible in any context, of course.

If you ever find yourself in a situation where you are compelled to say this explicitly, it might be a good time to reevaluate some things.

"Why aren't you condemning Hamas's war crimes?"
"I condemn Hamas's war crimes."
"Why did you feel the need to condemn Hamas's war crimes?"

"Why aren't you condemning Hamas's war crimes?"

”There’s no evidence war crimes were committed. ‘They’ have been known to lie about crimes committed against them before.”

One day later

”See, the sources are walking it back. ‘They’ clearly made it all up!”

One day later

”Even the President of the United States is lying about seeing photos of the victims. It’s a massive conspiracy, obviously.”

Photos of the victims are made public

”I condemn [generic description of war crimes]…
How dare you question my condemnation of [generic description of war crimes]?"

Yes, that's called healthy skepticism that can be moved one way or another in light of hard evidence (and yes, the claims were walked back by both the IDF and the White House at different times). It's now clear that a Hamas attack on Kfar Aza deliberately murdered children and infants, despite the details previously being fuzzy.  

Every single one of you would have bought WMDs in Iraq hook, line, and sinker. Some of you would have been among the Good Liberals who called for glassing the entire Middle East, I'm sure.

Except I didn't and I actually did oppose the Iraq War.

[Aurelius2]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-palestinians-killed-after-settlers-said-to-ambush-funeral-in-west-bank/

Disgusting. Not surprised that it happened in Huwara. That's right next to Yitzhar, a chardal settlement considered to be home to the most aggressive settlers in Israel. Lots of crazy stuff seems to come out of the Shilo-Eli-Yitzhar area in particular. If I were in charge these "price tag gang" Hilltop Youth would all be in jail.

[Angel of Death]

I hope people aren't seriously entertaining the thought that, as a result of this, Israel will change tack and become comparatively more conciliatory to the more moderate Palestinian regime in the West Bank. Much more likely is that they will establish a bunch of settlements there to "honor" (read: avenge) the victims.