Biden infrastructure/tax increase megathread

[S019]

Not to derail this thread too much, but this probably requires electing Republicans, who would defund our schools and our education quality would plummet, which is not ideal.

At risk of further derailment, that's why school funding should be centralized and doled out from the federal level--which would significantly reduce your state and local taxes. That said, it isn't how the system works. And since NJ has the best schools in the country, you deserve to pay more for what you get. It isn't fair to the rest of the country to ask us to subsidize your dream hoarding--which in Jersey, basically takes the form of moving to an exclusive neighborhood, paying an insane amount in property taxes for a de-facto elite private school, then writing off those taxes and asking the rest of the country to pick up the slack.

I mean using the deduction isn't a NJ only phenomenon, per this source: https://taxfoundation.org/salt-deduction-benefit/, over 40% of people in NJ, CT, MD, and DC used the deduction and over 35% in CA, OR, MA, and MN. Those aren't negligible amounts, as for centralizing school funding, I guess that could work, but my guess is property taxes would remain high anyways to continue to fund a high level of education and make up whatever the federal government didn't fund.

We're talking about maybe $100-$200 for people earning in the six figures. That's nothing.

No offense, but did you see my map, people in parts of Newark claim an average of 11k, people in Paterson claim 10k, literally anyone richer than them is subject to the cap. The cap is absurdly low for New Jersey.

Yes I did. And I'm okay with that. This is Jersey's issue to fix, not America's. Congress isn't making policy just for Parsippany.

I mean I don't really think policy that is designed to hurt one particular state is good policy, and the SALT deduction cap unfairly hurts New Jersey and other similar states.

It only affects you more because you made specific choices with regards to taxing and spending. It's not like God declared Jersey must pay more in property taxes than the rest of the country. You decided to tax yourselves, so step up and pay.

We seem to be back to square one, what is the alternative? Let our schools go bankrupt?


That's basically the same as saying grocery bills unfairly hurt Whole Foods shoppers so they should be deductible from income taxes.

I don't really follow this reasoning.

[H. Ross Peron]

Hope suburban NYC Democrats hold this hostage over SALT.

[S019]

Hope suburban NYC Democrats hold this hostage over SALT.

While I wouldn't put it as AGA did, pro SALT suburban voters are at least partly responsible for the Democratic House majority and not putting it in this bill is a betrayal to those voters and frankly it's disrespectful to them too, and indicates that their concerns don't really matter.

[WD]

Hope suburban NYC Democrats hold this hostage over SALT.

While I wouldn't put it as AGA did, pro SALT suburban voters are at least partly responsible for the Democratic House majority and not putting it in this bill is a betrayal to those voters and frankly it's disrespectful to them too, and indicates that their concerns don't really matter.

Correct, the concerns of the UMC and the wealthy really shouldn’t matter.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

Not to derail this thread too much, but this probably requires electing Republicans, who would defund our schools and our education quality would plummet, which is not ideal.

At risk of further derailment, that's why school funding should be centralized and doled out from the federal level--which would significantly reduce your state and local taxes. That said, it isn't how the system works. And since NJ has the best schools in the country, you deserve to pay more for what you get. It isn't fair to the rest of the country to ask us to subsidize your dream hoarding--which in Jersey, basically takes the form of moving to an exclusive neighborhood, paying an insane amount in property taxes for a de-facto elite private school, then writing off those taxes and asking the rest of the country to pick up the slack.

I mean using the deduction isn't a NJ only phenomenon, per this source: https://taxfoundation.org/salt-deduction-benefit/, over 40% of people in NJ, CT, MD, and DC used the deduction and over 35% in CA, OR, MA, and MN. Those aren't negligible amounts, as for centralizing school funding, I guess that could work, but my guess is property taxes would remain high anyways to continue to fund a high level of education and make up whatever the federal government didn't fund.

We're talking about maybe $100-$200 for people earning in the six figures. That's nothing.

No offense, but did you see my map, people in parts of Newark claim an average of 11k, people in Paterson claim 10k, literally anyone richer than them is subject to the cap. The cap is absurdly low for New Jersey.

Yes I did. And I'm okay with that. This is Jersey's issue to fix, not America's. Congress isn't making policy just for Parsippany.

I mean I don't really think policy that is designed to hurt one particular state is good policy, and the SALT deduction cap unfairly hurts New Jersey and other similar states.

It only affects you more because you made specific choices with regards to taxing and spending. It's not like God declared Jersey must pay more in property taxes than the rest of the country. You decided to tax yourselves, so step up and pay.

We seem to be back to square one, what is the alternative? Let our schools go bankrupt?


That's basically the same as saying grocery bills unfairly hurt Whole Foods shoppers so they should be deductible from income taxes.

I don't really follow this reasoning.

New Jersey decided to have high state and local taxes. They decided it was worth it to pay more than the rest of this country. Nobody told you that you had to be pay that much, but you did anyway. Therefore, you can't describe the SALT cap as hurting you because the rest of the country decided you should pay everything you signed up for. The lower cap isn't hurting New Jersey--it just means the rest of the country decided it isn't fair to help you disproportionately. A truly fair system has a SALT deduction cap of $0. That's the benchmark against which fairness must be judged--not the status quo.

[S019]

Hope suburban NYC Democrats hold this hostage over SALT.

While I wouldn't put it as AGA did, pro SALT suburban voters are at least partly responsible for the Democratic House majority and not putting it in this bill is a betrayal to those voters and frankly it's disrespectful to them too, and indicates that their concerns don't really matter.

Correct, the concerns of the UMC and the wealthy really shouldn’t matter.

I mean pro-SALT districts (CA-45, CA-49, NJ-07, NJ-11, NJ-05, VA-10, etc.) definitely are enough seats to be the balance of the House majority.

Also: while I think an infrastructure package with no SALT is better than no infrastructure package, Democrats can basically kiss the House majority goodbye if there's no SALT in here, especially given the number of seats they're guaranteed to lose based on redistricting alone (TN-05, MO-05, a few in FL, one in GA).

[WD]

Hope suburban NYC Democrats hold this hostage over SALT.

While I wouldn't put it as AGA did, pro SALT suburban voters are at least partly responsible for the Democratic House majority and not putting it in this bill is a betrayal to those voters and frankly it's disrespectful to them too, and indicates that their concerns don't really matter.

Correct, the concerns of the UMC and the wealthy really shouldn’t matter.

I mean pro-SALT districts (CA-45, CA-49, NJ-07, NJ-11, NJ-05, VA-10, etc.) definitely are enough seats to be the balance of the House majority.

Also: while I think an infrastructure package with no SALT is better than no infrastructure package, Democrats can basically kiss the House majority goodbye if there's no SALT in here

If we lose places like VA-10 and CA-49 in 2022, it’ll be because of much bigger problems than not getting rid of the SALT cap. And really, electoral considerations such as keeping the majority isn’t really the point. It’s about what’s right, and continuing to subsidize the lifestyles of the UMC and the rich, is not.

[S019]

Hope suburban NYC Democrats hold this hostage over SALT.

While I wouldn't put it as AGA did, pro SALT suburban voters are at least partly responsible for the Democratic House majority and not putting it in this bill is a betrayal to those voters and frankly it's disrespectful to them too, and indicates that their concerns don't really matter.

Correct, the concerns of the UMC and the wealthy really shouldn’t matter.

I mean pro-SALT districts (CA-45, CA-49, NJ-07, NJ-11, NJ-05, VA-10, etc.) definitely are enough seats to be the balance of the House majority.

Also: while I think an infrastructure package with no SALT is better than no infrastructure package, Democrats can basically kiss the House majority goodbye if there's no SALT in here

If we lose places like VA-10 and CA-49 in 2022, it’ll be because of much bigger problems than not getting rid of the SALT cap. And really, electoral considerations such as keeping the majority isn’t really the point. It’s about what’s right, and continuing to subsidize the lifestyles of the UMC and the rich, is not.

Those two were in reference to picking them up in 2018, and CA-49 is likely to be heavily redrawn due to a likely cut of a seat to its north which will force it northwards and out of blue SD suburbs like Del Mar and Encinitas, and likely into red South OC.

[VAR]

John Vihstadt (VA-08), Laura Ingraham (VA-10), and Carly Fiorina (VA-11) are gonna campaign hard on SALT.

And we will win all 3 seats.

[It’s so Joever]

On one hand, the SALT cap is good policy. On the other hand, I want to own the cons.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah but now he has the same position as Biden.

especially when the bill probably can’t pass the House without it.

Earmarks, baby.

Pelosi supports SALT relief; why would she use earmarks to kill it?  And why would Biden pick this as a hill to die on, regardless of his views on the issues?  Why would it matter to him that much?

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

No one really cares about infrastructure spending except Politicians, I don't care about it

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah but now he has the same position as Biden.

especially when the bill probably can’t pass the House without it.

Earmarks, baby.

Pelosi supports SALT relief; why would she use earmarks to kill it?  And why would Biden pick this as a hill to die on, regardless of his views on the issues?  Why would it matter to him that much?

"Relief" lmao. Because Biden can probably get everything he wants here. No adjustments to SALT and more infrastructure to buy off the suburbanites. Plus, I really don't see this playing well with most senators. Other than Manchin, I can absolutely see someone like Sanders throwing a fit over this with the go-ahead from Biden.

[American2020]

Guys, what're the probabilities Democrats will adopt Biden's infrastructure plans in the House and Senate ?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah but now he has the same position as Biden.

especially when the bill probably can’t pass the House without it.

Earmarks, baby.

Pelosi supports SALT relief; why would she use earmarks to kill it?  And why would Biden pick this as a hill to die on, regardless of his views on the issues?  Why would it matter to him that much?

"Relief" lmao. Because Biden can probably get everything he wants here. No adjustments to SALT and more infrastructure to buy off the suburbanites. Plus, I really don't see this playing well with most senators. Other than Manchin, I can absolutely see someone like Sanders throwing a fit over this with the go-ahead from Biden.

Neither Bernie nor Manchin nor Biden are gonna kill the bill over this.

[GP270watch]

SALT is coming back is my prediction.

[Motorcity]

What is SALT and why does it matter?

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/status/1377748114916917252
 

Pelosi just said yesterday that she hopes to do it, so unless Biden's threatening to veto (which is, y'know, lol), this doesn't actually stop Congress from just adding the proposal in on their own.

That requires it to get through senate reconciliation untouched. And I'd be pretty surprised if Manchin or whatever didn't kill it there.

Manchin won’t kill it lol

Why on earth wouldn't Manchin touch SALT? The GOP could bring up a floor amendment to just SALT and he could vote yes. He forced changes to the stimulus bill, after all.

“Changes”

Manchin isn’t going to force the removal of something the Democratic congressional leadership cares about, he’s basically our Susan Collins.

Yeah but now he has the same position as Biden.

especially when the bill probably can’t pass the House without it.

Earmarks, baby.

Pelosi supports SALT relief; why would she use earmarks to kill it?  And why would Biden pick this as a hill to die on, regardless of his views on the issues?  Why would it matter to him that much?

"Relief" lmao. Because Biden can probably get everything he wants here. No adjustments to SALT and more infrastructure to buy off the suburbanites. Plus, I really don't see this playing well with most senators. Other than Manchin, I can absolutely see someone like Sanders throwing a fit over this with the go-ahead from Biden.

Neither Bernie nor Manchin nor Biden are gonna kill the bill over this.

Passing a floor amendment after the house sends the bill over != killing the bill.

[S019]

What is SALT and why does it matter?

A tax deduction that allows high tax states to fund social services, like schools, without needing insanely high tax rates.

[Motorcity]

What is SALT and why does it matter?

A tax deduction that allows high tax states to fund social services, like schools, without needing insanely high tax rates.

Why is Biden against it?

[AGA]

What is SALT and why does it matter?

A tax deduction that allows high tax states to fund social services, like schools, without needing insanely high tax rates.

Why is Biden against it?

Previously, any taxes you paid at the state and local level could be deducted from your federal taxes. Now, the deduction is limited to $10k. I haven't seen anything confirming that Biden is explicitly against it, but a lot of Democrats are skeptical of getting rid of the $10k limit because it would mostly benefit the wealthy.

[OSR stands with Israel]

What is SALT and why does it matter?

A tax deduction that allows high tax states to fund social services, like schools, without needing insanely high tax rates.

Why is Biden against it?

That is misleading ,

SALT is an itemized deduction that lets you deduct State and Local taxes on your tax return . Keep in mind that the deduction is only beneficial if you have total itemized deductions of over $12,400 for singes  and $24,800 for joint filers .

So basically unless you are already pretty affluent, that deduction will very likely not benefit you

[Ferguson97]

Biden's been pretty clear that he doesn't want to do handouts for the rich, so I don't see him capitulating on SALT

[pbrower2a]

Both parties are going to add to our national debt. I'd rather it be done on investing in our future so we have some hope of decreasing our Debt/GDP ratio than more tax cuts that only lead to concentration of wealth. Way to be Joey.

Doing nothing is far more expensive in the long run. It was true with targeted Covid relief package and is true on infrastructure as well. Unfortunately, the infrastructure in the US is not in a healthy condition and in urgent need for repair, renewal and expansion. Bridges and airports are crumbling, highspeed internet is missing all over the place and the train system is a joke. The government should go in with a bold plan that not just improves the infrastructure itsself, but also creates millions of jobs and invests in renewable energy.

Unlike the Republicans, who passed massive tax cuts for wealthy people and big business, the Democrats actually pay for their expenditures by raising taxes on those who can actually afford it. I'd personally favor even a larger hike for upper incomes and big corporations as well as cutting military spending. But this Biden initiative is a huge step forward if passed that would do so much good on many fronts. Hopefully they can get this done without writing large parts of the bill off. It's too important.

Infrastructure pay off. Dams (and in the current time solar energy) provide cheap energy. Highways make transportation costs lower. Levees stop floods. Cheap Internet will make intellectual resources in places that now lack them.

As for the Internet I can think of built-in programs that could inform everyone of important things. How about ensuring that everyone can get:

Wikipedia
WebMD
Project Gutenberg
Library of Congress
WebMuseum
C-Span
 

[It’s so Joever]

How about instead of a SALT cap, we have an added red precinct tax?