DC Unrest Megathread

[Former President tack50]

snip

I mean, I am plenty familiar with what sedition is and is not; it's not like there wasn't a huge debate in Spain about that back in 2019 And let me tell you, while the crime rises to the level of sedition; like I've said tons of times before, you generally do not punish the "foot soldiers" for that.

Obviously I am not familiar with the exact US definitions but they don't seem too different from the Spanish ones, especially the one about sedition which I've pastebinned here. Also included the similar crime of rebellion since they both reference each other, as well as the crimes of "disobedience", and "Public disorders"" since I guess those 2 would be the ones that would apply if it happened here.

To be honest my reluctance to punish the MAGA rioters comes because, when we actually had a crime of sedition happening here in 2017, only the 10 people or so who were directly responsible for it were put behind bars, and even those people were only given senteces of 10-13 years for 1 count of sedition and 1 count of public funds misuse.

The punishments that Atlas red avatars seem to want to impose on the MAGA rioters would make any Spanish far rightist think they are way too excessive; not even the most visceral Spanish far rightist would have defended jailing everyone who went out in Catalonia in Autumn 2017!

As for the murder charge, like I said, collective punishment is probably unconstitutional? Like unless you can find the exact person (or people) who killed the policeman, I don't think anyone should be charged with that? How does that work; like if say, there is a huge fight with tons of people and the exact murderer can't be found among the crowd?

[Inmate Trump]

There are only two things I am willing to hear from Trump supporters right now.

1) "I am sorry. My vote aided and abetted an attempt at a fascist coup in the United States. I will now live the rest of my life attempting to atone for what I have done."

2) "I am clearly a terrible judge of character. Democrats, please educate me. How did you know the warning signs of Trump's narcissistic, dictatorial personality before I did? Before I ever cast another vote, I should learn how to watch for these things."

Anything else is either apologism, whataboutism, or genuine fascism.

I am sorry about not believing the Moscow prostitute pee stories. Those who manufactured them meant well even if they weren't true.

Do you support the coup attempt that occurred last Wednesday?

Do you support any future coup attempts?

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

snip

I mean, I am plenty familiar with what sedition is and is not; it's not like there wasn't a huge debate in Spain about that back in 2019 And let me tell you, while the crime rises to the level of sedition; like I've said tons of times before, you generally do not punish the "foot soldiers" for that.

Obviously I am not familiar with the exact US definitions but they don't seem too different from the Spanish ones, especially the one about sedition which I've pastebinned here. Also included the similar crime of rebellion since they both reference each other, as well as the crimes of "disobedience", and "Public disorders"" since I guess those 2 would be the ones that would apply if it happened here.

To be honest my reluctance to punish the MAGA rioters comes because, when we actually had a crime of sedition happening here in 2017, only the 10 people or so who were directly responsible for it were put behind bars, and even those people were only given senteces of 10-13 years for 1 count of sedition and 1 count of public funds misuse.

The punishments that Atlas red avatars seem to want to impose on the MAGA rioters would make any Spanish far rightist think they are way too excessive; not even the most visceral Spanish far rightist would have defended jailing everyone who went out in Catalonia in Autumn 2017!

As for the murder charge, like I said, collective punishment is probably unconstitutional? Like unless you can find the exact person (or people) who killed the policeman, I don't think anyone should be charged with that? How does that work; like if say, there is a huge fight with tons of people and the exact murderer can't be found among the crowd?

That’s when a Common Law principle called Felony Murder comes into play. Basically, that if a group of people commit a felony in which physical violence can be expected or the possibility of the same is disregarded and a murder occurs in the course of it, everyone involved in the felony is also liable for the murder. The textbook example is three people rob a bank and one of the shoots and kills someone. All three can be charged with murder.
I’m not suggesting we charge everyone at the Capitol with murder, that would clearly be abuse, but the crowd pushing down that door absolutely should.

As to the rest of the post, I think two things are at play here. The first is that the American justice system in general and the federal system in particular is rather harsh in terms of sentencing. This isn’t by any stretch a good thing, but we are more comfortable with long sentences. The second is that this simply hasn’t happened here. No one, well no one with the capability to do so, has ever tried to use a mob to keep themselves in office by force. It’s simply not something that happens here and I’d like to clamp down as hard as possible to keep it that way.

[SCNCmod]

https://twitter.com/1Bjbeverly/status/1348472046116855813

Obviously, all of Trump's supporters don't look like this... But surely Trump should have known that the type of supporters of his that are going to show up to a rally to storm the Capitol.... are probably not going to be wearing pearls & khakis!

[Blue3]

https://twitter.com/markaudacity/status/1348318193295757312



https://twitter.com/bradwhipple/status/1348043292504686597

[Vespucci]

https://twitter.com/markaudacity/status/1348318193295757312



https://twitter.com/bradwhipple/status/1348043292504686597

"Liberty Hangout" is known to be the opposite of libertarian, lol. They have called for, among other things, a theocratic absolute monarchy.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trespassing and disorderly conduct? Where are the real charges? He didn't find the taser and restraints in some closet in the Capitol - he brought them with him all the way from Tennessee to take prisoners in the Capitol.

Other than illegal gun ownership and maybe "attempted kidnapping" (is that a real crime definition?) what other crimes could you charge them with?

Like I've repeatedly said, trespassing (and I suppose disorderly conduct) are the only crimes where the people who got into the capitol are 99%+ likely to be convicted; but any other crimes have a very low chance of success.

Collective punishment I must imagine would be unconstitutional. And sedition is not generally a crime where "foot soldiers" get charged.

Well, the ones caught on camera (or online) threatening to kill Pelosi or Pence can safely be charged with "making terroristic threats".

[compucomp]

Even if she followed the law, she should be sacked from the Army anyway.

CHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP) — The Army is investigating a psychological operations officer who led a group of people from North Carolina to the rally in Washington that led up to the deadly riot in the U.S. Capitol by supporters of President Donald Trump.

Commanders at Fort Bragg are reviewing Captain Emily Rainey’s involvement in last week’s events in the nation’s capital, but she said she acted within military regulations and that no one in her group broke the law.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-charlotte-north-carolina-military-regulations-army-5e3cd1ed9fc23269ce3b74ae55664d90

[Middle-aged Europe]

Even if she followed the law, she should be sacked from the Army anyway.

CHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP) — The Army is investigating a psychological operations officer who led a group of people from North Carolina to the rally in Washington that led up to the deadly riot in the U.S. Capitol by supporters of President Donald Trump.

Commanders at Fort Bragg are reviewing Captain Emily Rainey’s involvement in last week’s events in the nation’s capital, but she said she acted within military regulations and that no one in her group broke the law.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-charlotte-north-carolina-military-regulations-army-5e3cd1ed9fc23269ce3b74ae55664d90

She has resigned her commission: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/emily-rainey-fort-bragg-captain-resigngs-washington-rally-army-investigating/

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

https://twitter.com/markaudacity/status/1348318193295757312



https://twitter.com/bradwhipple/status/1348043292504686597

"Liberty Hangout" is known to be the opposite of libertarian, lol. They have called for, among other things, a theocratic absolute monarchy.

I've definitely noticed a trend of ~Dark Enlightenment~ authoritarian maniacs insisting that they're "libertarians". I think for some people it's a case of taking exactly the wrong lesson from the "no freedom without economic freedom" adage (i.e. that only economic freedom matters, so it's not an infringement on your liberty if you're sentenced to penal servitude for criticizing Ideal Catholic Monarch *checks notes* Donald Trump as long as you can invest in some start-up once you get out), and for other people it's just that the "respectable" style in American conservatism is still Reaganite right-liberalism and so they feel the need to pay lip service to that.

[FrancoAgo]

anarcho-capitalism is a hoax

[Former President tack50]

That’s when a Common Law principle called Felony Murder comes into play. Basically, that if a group of people commit a felony in which physical violence can be expected or the possibility of the same is disregarded and a murder occurs in the course of it, everyone involved in the felony is also liable for the murder. The textbook example is three people rob a bank and one of the shoots and kills someone. All three can be charged with murder.
I’m not suggesting we charge everyone at the Capitol with murder, that would clearly be abuse, but the crowd pushing down that door absolutely should.

As to the rest of the post, I think two things are at play here. The first is that the American justice system in general and the federal system in particular is rather harsh in terms of sentencing. This isn’t by any stretch a good thing, but we are more comfortable with long sentences. The second is that this simply hasn’t happened here. No one, well no one with the capability to do so, has ever tried to use a mob to keep themselves in office by force. It’s simply not something that happens here and I’d like to clamp down as hard as possible to keep it that way.

Hmm, that principle kind of seems a bit abusive to me, I thought that the justice system generally leaned more on the principle of "it's best to leave a guilty man free, than to put in jail an innocent man". But I guess it makes sense if that is the law of the land

As for the rest, I agree on the point of long sentences being more common. I guess I just disagree on the fact that they need to be given harsh sentences "to make a point". At least here the common wisdom (on the left at least; conservatives did want to make them guilty of rebellion, which carried longer terms of up to 25 years) suggested that a harder sentence of rebellion was not justified and that the sentences needed to fall into the sweet spot where they would not be too harsh, but also not acquitals.

Though like I said, no one, not even the far right led prosecution, was advocating for jailing those citizens who say, were opening polling stations against court orders, or blocking the police from performing searches on certain buildings and what not. Had they done that, the number of people sent to jail would have gone from 12 to several thousand

Worth noting that the other similar-ish incident in Spain, the 1981 failed military coup, was also given very lenient sentences* so even while everyone on the left went out of their way to not call it a coup (conservatives did call that a coup) there was still a sort of precedent.

_{*: 30 people went to prison. However no one under the rank of Lieutanant was even indicted. Of the 30 people who went to prison, 20 went for less than 5 years. Only 3 people were given the maximum sentence allowed at the time of 30 years, and they didn't even serve half of that. 2 were released on parole after 10 and 15 years; and the remaing leader was outright pardoned after 8 years!}

[Non Swing Voter]

https://twitter.com/SangrealGlow/status/1348652335329931264

[Tintrlvr]

That’s when a Common Law principle called Felony Murder comes into play. Basically, that if a group of people commit a felony in which physical violence can be expected or the possibility of the same is disregarded and a murder occurs in the course of it, everyone involved in the felony is also liable for the murder. The textbook example is three people rob a bank and one of the shoots and kills someone. All three can be charged with murder.
I’m not suggesting we charge everyone at the Capitol with murder, that would clearly be abuse, but the crowd pushing down that door absolutely should.

As to the rest of the post, I think two things are at play here. The first is that the American justice system in general and the federal system in particular is rather harsh in terms of sentencing. This isn’t by any stretch a good thing, but we are more comfortable with long sentences. The second is that this simply hasn’t happened here. No one, well no one with the capability to do so, has ever tried to use a mob to keep themselves in office by force. It’s simply not something that happens here and I’d like to clamp down as hard as possible to keep it that way.

Hmm, that principle kind of seems a bit abusive to me, I thought that the justice system generally leaned more on the principle of "it's best to leave a guilty man free, than to put in jail an innocent man". But I guess it makes sense if that is the law of the land

As for the rest, I agree on the point of long sentences being more common. I guess I just disagree on the fact that they need to be given harsh sentences "to make a point". At least here the common wisdom (on the left at least; conservatives did want to make them guilty of rebellion, which carried longer terms of up to 25 years) suggested that a harder sentence of rebellion was not justified and that the sentences needed to fall into the sweet spot where they would not be too harsh, but also not acquitals.

Though like I said, no one, not even the far right led prosecution, was advocating for jailing those citizens who say, were opening polling stations against court orders, or blocking the police from performing searches on certain buildings and what not. Had they done that, the number of people sent to jail would have gone from 12 to several thousand

Worth noting that the other similar-ish incident in Spain, the 1981 failed military coup, was also given very lenient sentences* so even while everyone on the left went out of their way to not call it a coup (conservatives did call that a coup) there was still a sort of precedent.

_{*: 30 people went to prison. However no one under the rank of Lieutanant was even indicted. Of the 30 people who went to prison, 20 went for less than 5 years. Only 3 people were given the maximum sentence allowed at the time of 30 years, and they didn't even serve half of that. 2 were released on parole after 10 and 15 years; and the remaing leader was outright pardoned after 8 years!}

Felony murder is definitely not popular among legal academics (or even lawyers generally) for the reasons you outlined. But it is nonetheless the law in most U.S. jurisdictions, including the U.S. federal penal code, which is what is relevant here. In fact, the U.S. federal penal code even has the "proximate cause" theory of felony murder, which means a person committing a violent felony can be guilty of felony murder if one of their co-felons is killed by the police (or another third party) during the commission of the felony. That is, even the insurrectionist who died could be a basis for felony murder charges for the other insurrectionists.

[QAnonKelly]

Alaska says 14 passengers on a flight from Dulles to Seattle have been banned from their airline after being rowdy and refusing to wear masks.

[Ferguson97]

anarcho-capitalism is a hoax

Anarcho-anything is a hoax.

[NewYorkExpress]

The 2022 PGA Championship will no longer be held at Trump National in Bedminister, New Jersey.

As he faces a lonely end to his presidency, Donald Trump learned Sunday evening that, in the wake of last week's riot at the U.S. Capitol, he has lost one of the relationships he values most: his partnership with the Professional Golfers' Association.

While the embattled president has been hunkered down to try and preserve his political career, the PGA of America, the proprietors of one of golf's four major championship tournaments, announced that it plans to move its 2022 PGA Championship away from Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, N.J.

"The PGA of America Board of Directors voted tonight to exercise the right to terminate the agreement to play the 2022 PGA Championship at Trump Bedminster," said Jim Richerson, PGA of America president, in a statement.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1348656675599822855

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/EmmaKinery/status/1348628246435401728

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

https://twitter.com/EmmaKinery/status/1348628246435401728

I first registered that as Mike Levin and I was extremely confused

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

https://twitter.com/EmmaKinery/status/1348628246435401728

Might not have been the best hill to die on after all.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1348656675599822855

THIS is what we desperately need more of.

And any Republicans out there even remotely thinking in their minds, oh noes oh, some of these seditious Congressman might lose re-election and make it easier for buying to get his agenda through, you are a worthless unpatriotic coddler of treason. If you're serious about getting trumpism out of the Republican party, you should be happy at this news.

(Narrator: They weren't serious.)

[GeorgiaModerate]

Quinnipiac (monthly), Jan. 7-10, 1239 RV

Approve 33 (-11)
Disapprove 60 (+9)

Strongly approve 26 (-10)
Strongly disapprove 54 (+7)

This is almost the worst showing ever for Trump in this poll; he was at 33/61 in July 2017.

The net change of 20 points since last month is extraordinary.  I don't recall ever seeing a shift that large.

60% think Trump is undermining democracy; 34% think he is protecting it.

53% think Trump should resign; 43% don't.

52% think Trump should be removed; 45% don't.

45% think Trump is mentally stable; 48% don't.

[Bootes Void]

https://twitter.com/EmmaKinery/status/1348628246435401728

Was Ben Shapiro actually suggesting the election was stolen?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

https://twitter.com/EmmaKinery/status/1348628246435401728

Was Ben Shapiro actually suggesting the election was stolen?

I'd be surprised if he was. As right-wing as he is, he's never been a huge MAGA guy.