DC Unrest Megathread

[Stockdale for Veep]

The 2000s did not start until 9/11. The 2010s started when Obama won the election. Wednesday was the start of the 2020s.

The clear cultural decade (Nevermind goes #1 to 9/11 is a perfect '90s) kinda died when the iPhone became eligible for non-AT&T carriers.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Kind of trivial at this point, but nevertheless amusing:

https://twitter.com/vplus/status/1347675040117088258

Who needs a degree from Lehigh University, when you can get one from Trump University?

[Interlocutor is just not there yet]

Capitol Police officer who died when mob stormed the Capitol was proud to serve his nation, family said.
Click here to read article ... https://us.cnn.com/2021/01/08/us/brian-sicknick-death/index.html

Rest in Peace.

I hope the MAGA movement understands that from this point onward, law enforcement is going to treat them as brutally and ruthlessly as it does Black Lives Matter protesters and Antifa.  Blood calls for blood.  What a way to alienate a powerful ally.  

Yeah, don't hold your breath

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

Bet you never thought we would come this close to reality imitating art?

At the end of the day radicalism is the same regardless of which side it originates on, the danger posed is just the same as well. Likewise the same rules apply for stopping it. Block them from obtaining control, then fix the underlying problems on your terms, not theirs.

And it was mean-spirited reactionaries masquerading as #populist revolutionaries back then, too.

Fundamentally the only way to stop this is for the reasonable people to come together and agree that whatever happens, We Will Not Do Business With Them. Drive them out into the open, prosecute the traitors, purge the police and the executive branch of traitors and enablers, and then rebuild. Starve them of oxygen, shut down the misinformation outlets, and repair the societal and economic forces driving radicalization.

Any Republican who still thinks they can drink from the Devil's table and skip out on the tab is a fool. The Faustian bargain made in 2016 will cost this country dearly for generations to come.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

Tim this is months too late at this point. We have reached the point where we need to put a stop to this insanity. The disinformation needs to be stopped now, the people pushing it need to be held accountable and it must be made very clear that we will never tolerate this kind of behavior here, ever again.

Did I ever say that I didn't support locking up those who rioted in the Capitol, and didn't support pressing charges against Trump aides? Jesus Christ...you clearly read some of my posts but didn't understand them...

[SevenEleven]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

Tim this is months too late at this point. We have reached the point where we need to put a stop to this insanity. The disinformation needs to be stopped now, the people pushing it need to be held accountable and it must be made very clear that we will never tolerate this kind of behavior here, ever again.

Look, I'm down to endure decades of losing elections and missing out on my preferred policy ideas as long as free and fair elections, that treat every voter equally are the driving engine. Whatever your political perspective is, having a society where the people decide is of utmost importance. I've long advocated for DC statehood and an end to taxation without representation. This whole debacle has shown that DC's inability to call its own National Guard is problematic. These people need and deserve representation no matter how they vote.

Political parties shouldn't control who votes. They should adapt to winning the "equally created" population they are sworn to represent under the principle of one person, one vote. Anything else is a recipe for division.

[SevenEleven]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

Tim this is months too late at this point. We have reached the point where we need to put a stop to this insanity. The disinformation needs to be stopped now, the people pushing it need to be held accountable and it must be made very clear that we will never tolerate this kind of behavior here, ever again.

Did I ever say that I didn't support locking up those who rioted in the Capitol, and didn't support pressing charges against Trump aides? Jesus Christ...

You didn't say those things from what I can tell. What you did say was an argument for appeasement. "If we punish the treason, they'll only get worse." We are past the point of appeasement being viable, which is why even NCY says we have to nip this in, not the bud, but the flower. No more seeds.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

Tim this is months too late at this point. We have reached the point where we need to put a stop to this insanity. The disinformation needs to be stopped now, the people pushing it need to be held accountable and it must be made very clear that we will never tolerate this kind of behavior here, ever again.

Did I ever say that I didn't support locking up those who rioted in the Capitol, and didn't support pressing charges against Trump aides? Jesus Christ...

You didn't say those things from what I can tell. What you did say was an argument for appeasement. "If we punish the treason, they'll only get worse." We are past the point of appeasement being viable, which is why even NCY says we have to nip this in, not the bud, but the flower. No more seeds.

You and the others clearly missed this post of mine:

My proposition is charging the rioters involved in what happened for actions they actually did, and more or less stopping there*. If that means individual rioter X gets 10 years in prison due to a Trump EO, then so be it.
Regardless though, we need to continue protect legitimate activism on both the left and right and stand by our Bill of Rights. And at no point whatsoever should we give off the impression that the mere act of being a Trump supporter is being penalized.
*=Trump aides involved can also be sued and charged no problem

Which is literally on the previous page.

We can have spirited debate, but we cannot have room for distortion of one's argument. That respects neither you nor the person in question.

[SevenEleven]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

Tim this is months too late at this point. We have reached the point where we need to put a stop to this insanity. The disinformation needs to be stopped now, the people pushing it need to be held accountable and it must be made very clear that we will never tolerate this kind of behavior here, ever again.

Did I ever say that I didn't support locking up those who rioted in the Capitol, and didn't support pressing charges against Trump aides? Jesus Christ...

You didn't say those things from what I can tell. What you did say was an argument for appeasement. "If we punish the treason, they'll only get worse." We are past the point of appeasement being viable, which is why even NCY says we have to nip this in, not the bud, but the flower. No more seeds.

You and the others clearly missed this post of mine:

My proposition is charging the rioters involved in what happened for actions they actually did, and more or less stopping there*. If that means individual rioter X gets 10 years in prison due to a Trump EO, then so be it.
Regardless though, we need to continue protect legitimate activism on both the left and right and stand by our Bill of Rights. And at no point whatsoever should we give off the impression that the mere act of being a Trump supporter is being penalized.
*=Trump aides involved can also be sued and charged no problem

Which is literally on the previous page.

I did miss that post, which seems reasonable to me. I only object to the idea that we should tip-toe around "further radicalizing" people who have no interest in democracy. It's a tough problem to tackle and I think we all agree on that. At some point you have to draw the line and frankly, we have passed that point. Enough is enough.

[Ljube]

The FBI arrested the guy who ransacked Pelosi's office and sat in her chair.
Were they able to recover the letter he took?

[Crumpets]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

We tried, the department of defense didn't allow the national guard to deploy after requests from the mayor and from Maryland who were stuck waiting at the border.

Yea there was likely internal sabotage at work probably stemming from Trump or some lackey trying to carry out his desired outcome like with the GSA back in November.

That’s what it sounds like. There are parallels to 9/11 in the security lapses prior to and during the attack. The Capitol was left vulnerable either by design, incompetency, or complacency—or a combination of all three across multiple agencies.

Although it's not like prior to 9/11 al-Qaeda was openly posting on AIM for everyone to see that they were planning on violence in New York and DC on the morning of 9/11 and then have bin Laden give a televised speech at Logan Airport saying "okay, let's all get on these planes and send a message to these infidels!"

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Not sure if this has been posted yet: this poll conducted by Ipsos in the immediate aftermath of the coup finds that 19% of Americans "support the protesters who broke into the Capitol to disrupt the election certification," but 31% believe "this protest and unrest is necessary to protect America." (Emphasis added.)

I suppose there is some wiggle room in pinning down what is meant by "this unrest," but it seems we have further confirmation that a significant number of Americans' condemnation of the attack comes with a "but."

[Blair]

The interesting point I've not seen raised & would be interesting to see an experts take on this but I wonder to what extend de-radicalisation training/safeguarding will play a role in this in the future around the far right.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1347674222194253825

Digging deeper into this poll, 23% of respondents (47% of Republicans) believe the events Wednesday were "mostly a legitimate protest," compared to 72% (47% of Republicans) who believe it was "mostly people acting unlawfully."

56% believe Capitol Hill police were "not aggressive enough" in dealing with the terrorists.

[Former President tack50]

You didn't say those things from what I can tell. What you did say was an argument for appeasement. "If we punish the treason, they'll only get worse." We are past the point of appeasement being viable, which is why even NCY says we have to nip this in, not the bud, but the flower. No more seeds.

Tbh it is not hard to support lenient sentences for the mob, especially for the "foot soldiers".

It may not be the most relevant example, but when my country had a coup back in 1981; only the 3 main organizers (Tejero, Armada, Milans del Bosch) got heavy prison sentences (30 years)

Literally everyone under the rank of Lieutenant was outright not judged, and of the 30 people that went to jail for the coup attempt, only 10 had a prison sentence longer than 5 years*.

For the US I'd 100% support Trump going to jail for a long prison sentence of say, 10-15 years**. However, the average person who invaded the Capitol, with the exception of the one who killed a policeman if they can be found, only really deserves to get fined for trespassing, and possibly vandalism or destruction of public documents and similar stuff. Maybe a very short prison sentence of like 1-2 years but I don't know if the standard of evidence required would allow for that.

As for the Republican politicians, the thing is that no politician should ever be punished for expressing an opinion in Congress, they should definitely hold immunity. So it's kind of hard where would you separate their role as politicians from their role as the leaders of the rebellion. A much clearer case can be made for other high profile figures I suppose but again you end up with the problem of "what is a high profile figure"

After all, a picture at the Capitol really only makes you automatically guilty of Trespassing. Nothing else. (though the Capitol probably has plenty of security cameras so that should be easier than I am giving it credit).

<sup>*: Worth noting that the prison sentences were originally even more lenient, and were only made harsher after a judicial appeal. Also, the 3 leaders who got sentenced to 30 year terms? Well, one was outright pardoned by PM González in 1988, while the other 2 were released on parole in 1990 and 1993, so they didn't even fulfill half their intended sentence! A couple others were also eventually pardoned, their punishments commuted or released on parole early.

**: Worth noting that much like in our case, I can also see the case for President Biden to pardon Trump circa 2027 or so if he is reelected, on humanitarian and healthcare reasons since Trump will be super old and probably not super healthy at that time.</sup>

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

After all, a picture at the Capitol really only makes you automatically guilty of Trespassing. Nothing else. (though the Capitol probably has plenty of security cameras so that should be easier than I am giving it credit).

I mean, to be fair, we also have several people on tape saying their intent was to foment "revolution" and prevent the inauguration of the lawfully elected president —not to mention eyewitness accounts of the terrorists chanting "hang Mike Pence." Shouldn't be too hard to establish that those people are guilty of sedition and rebellion.

[vitoNova]

I feel the media isn't emphasizing enough that these rioters desire a dictatorship.

Who cares about a lectern, Nancy Pelosi's office, or any other Congresscritter for that matter? lol.

They are completely missing the bigger picture.  

Edit:  had Trump won the 2020 election, we would be seeing this SAME EXACT scenario play out in 2024.  Trump would refuse to acknowledge Ivanka or Don Jr's loss.  And would cite a rigged election and "massive voter fraud."

[GeorgiaModerate]

The Houston Chronicle, which is not what you'd call a bastion of liberalism, calls for Ted Cruz to resign:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-Resign-Senator-Cruz-Your-lies-cost-15857293.php

[(no subject)]

Yee-hawdists

Talibangelicals

The Turd Reich

Vanilla ISIS

Gravy SEALs

Y'all Qaeda

Yokel Haram

[Inmate Trump]

The Houston Chronicle, which is not what you'd call a bastion of liberalism, calls for Ted Cruz to resign:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-Resign-Senator-Cruz-Your-lies-cost-15857293.php

Good.  He should.  He never will, because all his cares about is his political career, even over his wife and his father.

[Calthrina950]

The Houston Chronicle, which is not what you'd call a bastion of liberalism, calls for Ted Cruz to resign:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/Editorial-Resign-Senator-Cruz-Your-lies-cost-15857293.php

Good.  He should.  He never will, because all his cares about is his political career, even over his wife and his father.

I fully understand now why his colleagues so strongly detest him, and it also helps to explain why O'Rourke was able to come so close in 2018. Cruz is an utterly reprehensible character, and all of his actions are dictated by ambition. This man has so utterly debased himself at Trump's feet, and history will look down upon him very unkindly.

[Agonized-Statism]

These past few days have been surreal. Of all the many things I could have seen going wrong in the future, I never would have guessed that the all-powerful government that fought the War on Terror and dominated the planet would have faced a failed coup.

[It’s so Joever]

These past few days have been surreal. Of all the many things I could have seen going wrong in the future, I never would have guessed that the all-powerful government that fought the War on Terror and dominated the planet would have faced a failed coup.

I’m more surprised it didn’t happen earlier.

[Storebought]

To be frank, I don't trust any poll taken about this putsch right now, let alone one by as poor a pollster as Marist. Trafalgar (honestly) would have a more accurate result.

[Badger]

https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1347674222194253825

Digging deeper into this poll, 23% of respondents (47% of Republicans) believe the events Wednesday were "mostly a legitimate protest," compared to 72% (47% of Republicans) who believe it was "mostly people acting unlawfully."

56% believe Capitol Hill police were "not aggressive enough" in dealing with the terrorists.

Link?