DC Unrest Megathread

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

It is difficult to know how to respond when you don't say exactly what you mean by "unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted." My current understanding of your position is that you do not believe Trump should be impeached or removed from office via the Twenty-fifth Amendment, that he should not be charged with sedition or other crimes related to the events of January 6 after he leaves office, and that other Republican politicians such as Hawley and Cruz who played a role in inciting these riots should not face legal consequences for their actions. If I have misunderstood, do say so.

I believe it would be a grave mistake not to hold the ringleaders of this attack —Trump, his inner circle, Rudy Giuliani, Senators Hawley and Cruz, and officials who blocked the deployment of the D.C. police and the National Guard —legally responsible for their actions. If we do not prosecute these crimes, we effectively legitimize violence and insurrection as political tactics that thew far right will employ again. We will be sending the message that anyone who might attempt the violent overthrow of the United States government will face no consequences, or otherwise overturn the result of a free and fair election. If we do not convict Trump and his henchmen of inciting an uprising, we will allow them to continue to move in Republican circles, amass power, and plot a second attempt.

I am not saying that we should execute everyone who stormed the Capitol yesterday, or that we should expel or imprison every Republican politician who supported the objections. But we need to send a firm message that this is not okay, and that must include the prosecution of the leaders of the coup.

While comparisons to Nazi Germany are clichéd, Nuremberg is a useful example of how to do this right. We did not execute every Nazi war criminal. We did not indict the entire German people for their role in supporting Hitler's crimes. Instead, we identified a few key figures for punishment as representatives of the regime. Then we went about the work of rebuilding German society, so that the grievances which motivated support for the Nazis did not continue to fester. This reconstruction must happen in the United States. But it cannot begin until the fascist instigators are held accountable for their crimes.

The alternative can be seen in the fail of the Weimar courts to hold Hilter and his henchmen accountable for the Beer Hall Putsch. Hitler was treated leniently and served only a small part of his one-year sentence. Because the fascist elements of German society had not been confronted and purged, they continued to rot the core of the fragile democracy. Public support for anti-democratic forces continued to grow, culminating in the success of the fascists just ten years later.

The U.S. is nowhere near as unstable as Weimar Germany in 1923, and Trump is no Hitler. But the dangers of failing to confront the fascist threat to our government with anything more than a stern warning are great.

We need to accept the fact that this attack was popular among a certain segment of Trump's base. Maybe that segment accounts for 20% of Republicans; maybe 30%; maybe 50%. Regardless, those people are not going to be won over by conciliatory language or any kind of cease-fire. Nor will the plotters be dissuaded by a stern chastisement without real consequences. It is imperative in the coming days and weeks that we do not allow their violent tactics to become normalized, and that we begin a vigorous effort to counteract the campaign of misinformation that has brought us to this point. That starts by indicting Trump for sedition and inciting rebellion, and reaching out to patriotic Republicans like Romney, Murkowski, and Sasse to establish a bipartisan democratic consensus going forward.

[The Undefeatable Debbie Stabenow]

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.

I've believed this since the revelation that Trump had blocked the DC National Guard from being deployed. The media has not really gone at the "Trump tried to overthrow the government" angle, and I agree with you, that's a big disservice.

I didn't even entertain the idea myself because it seems so outlandish at first consideration, but I think it needs to be thoroughly explored. I challenge the administration to provide any defense for Trump's decision to block the deployment of the National Guard.

[Ljube]

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.

I've believed this since the revelation that Trump had blocked the DC National Guard from being deployed. The media has not really gone at the "Trump tried to overthrow the government" angle, and I agree with you, that's a big disservice.

I wonder what the plan was. To storm the Capitol, make the members of Congress invalidate electoral votes from seven contested states, force them to vote for President in the House of Representatives and elect Trump.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.

I've believed this since the revelation that Trump had blocked the DC National Guard from being deployed. The media has not really gone at the "Trump tried to overthrow the government" angle, and I agree with you, that's a big disservice.

I wonder what the plan was. To storm the Capitol, make the members of Congress invalidate electoral votes from seven contested states, force them to vote for President in the House of Representatives and elect Trump.

Well, plan is doing allot of work there, but essentially yes. He expected the mob to disrupt meetings, take hostages, and prevent formal validation so he can say ‘ha ha I’m still president’.

[BaldEagle1991]

Goodness gracious I may have to be a refugee to Canada if these guys get their Civil War wet dream.

[Estrella]

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.

I've believed this since the revelation that Trump had blocked the DC National Guard from being deployed. The media has not really gone at the "Trump tried to overthrow the government" angle, and I agree with you, that's a big disservice.

I wonder what the plan was. To storm the Capitol, make the members of Congress invalidate electoral votes from seven contested states, force them to vote for President in the House of Representatives and elect Trump.

It's an interesting and/or horrifying hypothetical to think what would happen if they were organized and competent enough to actually take the Congress hostage and force them to do that. IMO what would most likely happen would be that, independently from any civilian orders (or perhaps on orders from Pence once the 25th has been invoked), Joint Chiefs would go full Yeltsin 1993 and send in the tanks. I assume they would be a little less trigger-happy with shelling the Capitol, though.

[WMS]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.

I think it's very likely that we'll learn that this was "coordinated" in the sense of deliberately neglecting crowd control measures that rely on orders from within the executive branch in the hope that the worst would happen. Perhaps arrangements were made to heighten the negligence and the difficulty faced by any independent official tempted to take their own initiative. It's more of a question of whether it takes days or years for that story to be told.

Interesting to note that this is possibly the first autogolpe attempt in history where the leader abused his preexisting control over the military and law enforcement by making it harder for them to act. Perhaps something to look out for with other populist leaders whose uniformed brass doesn't like them much.

[Badger]

Do you guys really think that Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski would jump ship, become an Independent and side with the Dems?

I'm not convinced, but it appears to be a real possibilty. The longer she goes without denying, the more likely it is.

Please stop Trying to minimize the facts here to suit your own narrative. Over a third of Republicans approve of a violent Insurrection storming the US Capitol. That's beyond insane.

Moreover, nearly half of them believe the rioters " went too far, but had a point". That type of even grudging acknowledgement of anything close to legitimacy for these actions is beyond scary, and a direct result of the Nigerian prince email scan level BS myth of the election being stolen becoming damn near gospel mode rank-and-file Republicans.

Added to the 22% who think the protesters actions were right, we are talking about f****** two-thirds of RepublicansI

I know you want us to all hold hands and sing Kumbaya to get past this , Tim, but that's not about to happen when a large majority of one of the two major parties give even grudging acceptance to the most heinous act of outright Rebellion this country has seen in over a hundred fifty years.

Fundamental change is needed, and that will never, repeat never ever happen unless there is a clear, unreservedly assertion by our Collective democratic government that this was wrong wrong wrong and the perpetrators, particularly Crump, need to be held 100% accountable.

[Badger]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

They. Are. Already. Has. Radicalized. As. Can. Be! A mob stormed the capital and Overland Police causing deaths at the United States President urgent, and you're worried about radicalizing people!?!

Sit on your hands. You clearly are doing everything humanly possible to minimize the reality of the situation. What you are trying to write off as being calm and level-headed is simple myopia.

I'm done trying to rationally explain the gravity of this situation to you. Your whole oh, gee whiz, sure it's serious, but not so much that we should actually do much about it, type of intransigence is truly bewildering given hard facts of the situation. You truly live in a fantasy world right now.

EDIT: Sorry, a bit Hasty there. Deep breaths Badger. This is been a long and awful few days for the entire country short of trumpist bastards. I know you mean well Tim, but we have to respond to this seriously and aggressively. Sanction Trump as much as the law and constitutional system will allow. Failure to do so will simply be a matter of historical posterity. Instead it is that, that fair to act my friend, which will truly inflamed and radicalize Trump supporters. They responded to weakness with the Capitol Police they were spawned weakness when they outnumber some Progressive couple coming back for a protest on a dark Street, and they will respond to weakness if they feel their hero got away with it. That is what One Flame and energize them. Not in action.

[Calthrina950]

Is Trump legally liable for the death of that cop? I’d say he should be. He has blood on his hands.

Blood on his hands, blood coming from his eyes. Blood coming from...wherever.

Do you have to make a sexual joke out of everything? Even over a matter as sensitive as someone's death? Particularly someone who died in the line of duty against these extremists?

Please explain how that was sexual. I’ll wait.

It's clear what you were referring to. I'm not going to debase matters by giving the details which you seem to desire. As I've made clear before, I don't take that well to people who cheapen the deaths of others, particularly those whose deaths should not be addressed in such a manner.

[The Undefeatable Debbie Stabenow]

Is Trump legally liable for the death of that cop? I’d say he should be. He has blood on his hands.

Blood on his hands, blood coming from his eyes. Blood coming from...wherever.

Do you have to make a sexual joke out of everything? Even over a matter as sensitive as someone's death? Particularly someone who died in the line of duty against these extremists?

Please explain how that was sexual. I’ll wait.

It's clear what you were referring to. I'm not going to debase matters by giving the details which you seem to desire. As I've made clear before, I don't take that well to people who cheapen the deaths of others, particularly those whose deaths should not be addressed in such a manner.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/08/politics/donald-trump-cnn-megyn-kelly-comment/index.html

[Calthrina950]

Is Trump legally liable for the death of that cop? I’d say he should be. He has blood on his hands.

Blood on his hands, blood coming from his eyes. Blood coming from...wherever.

Do you have to make a sexual joke out of everything? Even over a matter as sensitive as someone's death? Particularly someone who died in the line of duty against these extremists?

Please explain how that was sexual. I’ll wait.

It's clear what you were referring to. I'm not going to debase matters by giving the details which you seem to desire. As I've made clear before, I don't take that well to people who cheapen the deaths of others, particularly those whose deaths should not be addressed in such a manner.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/08/politics/donald-trump-cnn-megyn-kelly-comment/index.html

No, I'm exactly aware of what this is in reference to. That doesn't mean I have to condone it being used within this context.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.

Tim this is months too late at this point. We have reached the point where we need to put a stop to this insanity. The disinformation needs to be stopped now, the people pushing it need to be held accountable and it must be made very clear that we will never tolerate this kind of behavior here, ever again.

[The Undefeatable Debbie Stabenow]

Is Trump legally liable for the death of that cop? I’d say he should be. He has blood on his hands.

Blood on his hands, blood coming from his eyes. Blood coming from...wherever.

Do you have to make a sexual joke out of everything? Even over a matter as sensitive as someone's death? Particularly someone who died in the line of duty against these extremists?

Please explain how that was sexual. I’ll wait.

It's clear what you were referring to. I'm not going to debase matters by giving the details which you seem to desire. As I've made clear before, I don't take that well to people who cheapen the deaths of others, particularly those whose deaths should not be addressed in such a manner.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/08/politics/donald-trump-cnn-megyn-kelly-comment/index.html

No, I'm exactly aware of what this is in reference to. That doesn't mean I have to condone it being used within this context.

Oh. The way you were describing it as a "sexual joke" and refusing to discuss "details" made me think that you were possibly assigning a different, even less savory meaning to what they had said. I don't think it really has anything to do with sex, it has to do with Donald Trump being incredibly immature, and the point of the comment was to mock him for that reason, so I don't think the intention was to at all cheapen the officer's death. Not the most tasteful comment in the world, sure.

[Rand]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.

Bet you never thought we would come this close to reality imitating art?

At the end of the day radicalism is the same regardless of which side it originates on, the danger posed is just the same as well. Likewise the same rules apply for stopping it. Block them from obtaining control, then fix the underlying problems on your terms, not theirs.

[leonardothered]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

We tried, the department of defense didn't allow the national guard to deploy after requests from the mayor and from Maryland who were stuck waiting at the border.

[Badger]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

We tried, the department of defense didn't allow the national guard to deploy after requests from the mayor and from Maryland who were stuck waiting at the border.

Forgive the cliche, but thank you for your service. Genuinely.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

We tried, the department of defense didn't allow the national guard to deploy after requests from the mayor and from Maryland who were stuck waiting at the border.

Yea there was likely internal sabotage at work probably stemming from Trump or some lackey trying to carry out his desired outcome like with the GSA back in November.

[leonardothered]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

We tried, the department of defense didn't allow the national guard to deploy after requests from the mayor and from Maryland who were stuck waiting at the border.

Forgive the cliche, but thank you for your service. Genuinely.

I meant the proverbial we as a country guys, my bad, I'm not honored with the privilege of serving the country.

But yes it seems like there was some order given to not deploy the national guard; the less cynical side of me thinks that was intended to not enflame the far right that such tactics were being used on them in the same manner as the BLM supporters... but the smarter cynical side thinks it's more likely to enable an insurrection, or whatever Trump thought was going to happen.

[Calthrina950]

Is Trump legally liable for the death of that cop? I’d say he should be. He has blood on his hands.

Blood on his hands, blood coming from his eyes. Blood coming from...wherever.

Do you have to make a sexual joke out of everything? Even over a matter as sensitive as someone's death? Particularly someone who died in the line of duty against these extremists?

Please explain how that was sexual. I’ll wait.

It's clear what you were referring to. I'm not going to debase matters by giving the details which you seem to desire. As I've made clear before, I don't take that well to people who cheapen the deaths of others, particularly those whose deaths should not be addressed in such a manner.

https://www.cnn.com/2015/08/08/politics/donald-trump-cnn-megyn-kelly-comment/index.html

No, I'm exactly aware of what this is in reference to. That doesn't mean I have to condone it being used within this context.

Oh. The way you were describing it as a "sexual joke" and refusing to discuss "details" made me think that you were possibly assigning a different, even less savory meaning to what they had said. I don't think it really has anything to do with sex, it has to do with Donald Trump being incredibly immature, and the point of the comment was to mock him for that reason, so I don't think the intention was to at all cheapen the officer's death. Not the most tasteful comment in the world, sure.

If that was the intent, then it's understandable. He certainly could have phrased his comment better, as I think this one still isn't the most appropriate.

[Rand]

I just watched the CNN video where Trumpists viciously assaulted one of the officers trying to hold them back. The screaming of the guard, and the blood lust of the Trumpists...

Goddamn every Trump supporter. And goddamn the complicit Republican Party.

That video got my blood boiling. I said before I would have loved to have been there. These clowns would probably never attack a military base for a reason. So why not send us to them

We tried, the department of defense didn't allow the national guard to deploy after requests from the mayor and from Maryland who were stuck waiting at the border.

Yea there was likely internal sabotage at work probably stemming from Trump or some lackey trying to carry out his desired outcome like with the GSA back in November.

That’s what it sounds like. There are parallels to 9/11 in the security lapses prior to and during the attack. The Capitol was left vulnerable either by design, incompetency, or complacency—or a combination of all three across multiple agencies.

[Horus]

The 2000s did not start until 9/11. The 2010s started when Obama won the election. Wednesday was the start of the 2020s.

[It’s so Joever]

The 2000s did not start until 9/11. The 2010s started when Obama won the election. Wednesday was the start of the 2020s.

I think Covid was an appropriate start.