Your position on abortion

[Brambila]

Strongly pro-choice with the serious exception of partial-birth abortions. I am somewhat undecided on that issue, though it should be legal if the mother's life is in danger.

And I honestly can't believe there are those who would ban abortion even in a case of rape because "it's not the child's fault". The woman has MONTHS before it becomes anything more than a clump of cells!

Thank you Arlen Specter.

That's about where i am as well.  I oppose partial birth abortion with life and health exceptions.  As far as I see it in the early stages, it's a clump of cells.  I don't know what the Catholic church/Evangelicals get all fussy about. 

There are many more born people worthy of being called "clump of cells" than a fetus.

Nym, sorry for the delay, I didn't know you responded... here's the link:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

It's silly to say that teens or people who are not emotionally ready to have an abortion can't afford it. That's a petty assumption. If a teen girl were pregnant her parents would either force her to have an abortion or help take care of the child themselves. 

[Confabulator]

At some point the fetus becomes a human being.  This point is clearly before the baby is born.

If we can make laws defining when a murder is premeditated, and when it isn't, and to what degree, and allow our government to slay its own citizens, go to war without the approval of the people, etc., then we can decide when a fetus is a conscious human being.  It's probably at about 7 months, but science could prove this.  It wouldn't be difficult.  After that point, all abortions must be illegal, because they become murder.

[Brambila]

At some point the fetus becomes a human being.  This point is clearly before the baby is born.

If we can make laws defining when a murder is premeditated, and when it isn't, and to what degree, and allow our government to slay its own citizens, go to war without the approval of the people, etc., then we can decide when a fetus is a conscious human being.  It's probably at about 7 months, but science could prove this.  It wouldn't be difficult.  After that point, all abortions must be illegal, because they become murder.

Science says that the fetus is a human being form conception. Since it has human DNA which defines the species, and it is a living being, it is a human being. That's not the question everyone's asking- the question is whether or not the fetus is a person.

[John Dibble]

At some point the fetus becomes a human being.  This point is clearly before the baby is born.

If we can make laws defining when a murder is premeditated, and when it isn't, and to what degree, and allow our government to slay its own citizens, go to war without the approval of the people, etc., then we can decide when a fetus is a conscious human being.  It's probably at about 7 months, but science could prove this.  It wouldn't be difficult.  After that point, all abortions must be illegal, because they become murder.

Science says that the fetus is a human being form conception. Since it has human DNA which defines the species, and it is a living being, it is a human being. That's not the question everyone's asking- the question is whether or not the fetus is a person.

Bram, some people consider 'human being' the same thing as a person, and a non-sentient fetus composed of human cells not to be the same thing. It's POV and semantics. That's what he meant. He also did specify 'conscious'.

[Beet]

Middle position.

Also, it should be noted that pro-life and pro-choice people all agree on one thing- try to reduce the number of abortions as much as possible (as separate from abortion rights, where they disagree). To this end, free comprehensive child care like the bill proposed by Akno1 in fantasy senate, or paid maternity leave, addresses many of the root causes for getting an abortion in the first place. Unfortunately, these proposals are not even being mentioned by either side.

[Bogart]

The problem, as I see it, is that many people fail to personalize this issue and rather choose to state a position. As someone here mentioned, it is a highly personal issue and no amount of rationalizing the amount of money a woman may have, how well prepared she may be, how far along the baby is or what someone's god may say about it will change that fact. I guess one could say that I am anti-abortion as a stance, but only from the standpoint that it would be better for any number of reasons not to need them. Realistically, I am pro-choice. I came to realize this when a member of my family came to me and asked if I would, should she decide to have an abortion, drive her to and from the procedure. At the time, I would have been opposed. However, at the point where I had to look at this special and terribly desperate young woman and tell her, "No I can't help you. Abortion is wrong," my opinion changed. There is no amount of rationalizing that will get rid of the fear that she felt at that moment.

Those of you who tell a woman that it is her fault and she should be made to suffer that way for her mistake should be ashamed of yourselves. Try walking in those shoes.

[Julien]

In the middle. I do not like abortion, but it wont stop if it is made to be illegal

[Richard]

So question.  If the baby comes out and is lying on the mother's chest, cord still attached, is it right to pierce his skull and suck his brains out because it is part of the woman's body?

How about if is halfway out of the birth canal?  Can you do it then?

What about if it is *just* about to come out?  Then?


What if I'm a siamese twin and I want to err, abort a part of my body?  The other one, I mean.  I don't want to live with "it."  "It" is annoying and always bothering me.  I want to cut that part of my body off.  We will start by piercing the skull and sucking the brains out.



Abortions warrant death.  You murder a baby, you should be hanged.

[Brambila]

At some point the fetus becomes a human being.  This point is clearly before the baby is born.

If we can make laws defining when a murder is premeditated, and when it isn't, and to what degree, and allow our government to slay its own citizens, go to war without the approval of the people, etc., then we can decide when a fetus is a conscious human being.  It's probably at about 7 months, but science could prove this.  It wouldn't be difficult.  After that point, all abortions must be illegal, because they become murder.

Science says that the fetus is a human being form conception. Since it has human DNA which defines the species, and it is a living being, it is a human being. That's not the question everyone's asking- the question is whether or not the fetus is a person.

Bram, some people consider 'human being' the same thing as a person, and a non-sentient fetus composed of human cells not to be the same thing. It's POV and semantics. That's what he meant. He also did specify 'conscious'.

Good that you pointed that out. Yes, those people who say that "human being" is the same thing as a person are wrong, as they are two separate entities. Body and mind/soul. Physically, the fetus is a completely independent human being, just as distinguished from the mother as an infant.

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About a year ago I was working at a summer camp as a counselor, and two boy scouts (underaged) brought alcohol with them to camp. They got drunk on several occasions, and I told them that they should stop, or they were going to get into trouble. Since they were in my troop, I gave them a little break. However, at one point, the camp director was making camp inspections, and they asked me to hide their liquor. I said no, as it would be wrong for me to first of all possess the alcohol, and second of all help them hide. The camp director found them, and they were kicked out of camp, and almost kicked out of the boy scouts. Was I wrong for not helping them? Of course not. I was absolutely right in not helping them. I’m not going to help anyone to do something wrong. In your case, where murder was foolishly thought to be the only option, asking somebody to help them get an abortion was not only putting the young woman in moral jeopardy, but themselves in it as well. More so, the young woman and that person would be responsible for ending the life of an innocent human being, who by no one’s fault but the parent’s was conceived without preparation and because of it the mother/father thought it just to kill their own child. Now, I’m a Machiavellian as far as governments are run, but on moral grounds the ends do not justify the means. More so, the ends do not weigh out with the means.

[John Dibble]

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About a year ago I was working at a summer camp as a counselor, and two boy scouts (underaged) brought alcohol with them to camp. They got drunk on several occasions, and I told them that they should stop, or they were going to get into trouble. Since they were in my troop, I gave them a little break. However, at one point, the camp director was making camp inspections, and they asked me to hide their liquor. I said no, as it would be wrong for me to first of all possess the alcohol, and second of all help them hide. The camp director found them, and they were kicked out of camp, and almost kicked out of the boy scouts. Was I wrong for not helping them? Of course not. I was absolutely right in not helping them. I’m not going to help anyone to do something wrong. In your case, where murder was foolishly thought to be the only option, asking somebody to help them get an abortion was not only putting the young woman in moral jeopardy, but themselves in it as well. More so, the young woman and that person would be responsible for ending the life of an innocent human being, who by no one’s fault but the parent’s was conceived without preparation and because of it the mother/father thought it just to kill their own child. Now, I’m a Machiavellian as far as governments are run, but on moral grounds the ends do not justify the means. More so, the ends do not weigh out with the means.

While we're on abortion stories, I'd like your thoughts on this one, which was told to me by a poster at a blog I used to visit. She was young, and pregnant. She felt that she had to have an abortion - she didn't really want to, but she felt it was in her best interest and the baby's best interest. At the time, Roe vs. Wade had not happened yet, so abortion was illegal in her area. So, she had to find a back alley place that would do it. She found one, and when she went in, it was a simple office, but the defining feature was a crucifix on the wall. Since this was a back alley operation, there was no anestesia. The procedure was performed, and it was very painful for her(not just physically either). When he was done, the doctor asked here if it hurt. Her response was that it was the most painful thing that had ever happened to her. His response was "Good." She was already crying before that.

[Bogart]

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Again, rationalizing. Of course what you call murder was not the only option. But then again, the pro-life crowd are all about taking one option away. I'm sure that many would also be happy to know that it was an option not taken. Moreover, I do not subsribe to your morality, nor will I surrender the fight against those who seek to push it upon me. Frankly, I find your rather sanitized view of the entire debate rather offensive.

[DaleC76]

As of my post:

Strongly Pro-life             16 (23.5%)
Pro-life                          15 (22.1%)
In the middle                      13 (19.1%)
Pro-choice                       12 (17.6%)
Strongly Pro-Choice         12 (17.6%)

It's hard to get more divided than that!

[angus]

As of my post:

Strongly Pro-life             16 (23.5%)
Pro-life                          15 (22.1%)
In the middle                      13 (19.1%)
Pro-choice                       12 (17.6%)
Strongly Pro-Choice         12 (17.6%)

It's hard to get more divided than that!

just curious dale, where are ya?

at the moment, I'm about 7 miles from the Al state line in Lowndes County, MS.  nearest big city is birmingham (circa 2 hours)

[Vincent]

I guess Im a bit of centerist here, I dont neccessarly think someones a person from conception though. I would probably go from brain activity.

Those of you who tell a woman that it is her fault and she should be made to suffer that way for her mistake should be ashamed of yourselves. Try walking in those shoes.

Bogart,
The argument would be that someone should provide care for the life they create, I believe abortion should be allowed very early. However the notion that pro-lifers are out to make women suffer is a bit childish. Suffering may be an unintended consequence but most pro-life people*I think* have made the determination that it is the lesser of two evils. I dont think anyone's out plotting to hurt other people or cause them to suffer.

[DaleC76]

As of my post:

Strongly Pro-life             16 (23.5%)
Pro-life                          15 (22.1%)
In the middle                      13 (19.1%)
Pro-choice                       12 (17.6%)
Strongly Pro-Choice         12 (17.6%)

It's hard to get more divided than that!

just curious dale, where are ya?

at the moment, I'm about 7 miles from the Al state line in Lowndes County, MS.  nearest big city is birmingham (circa 2 hours)

DeKalb County, about a half hour's drive from Ft. Payne (home of country music group Alabama).

I'm about as far from the GA line as you are from MS, which is good, because gas in GA is about a dime cheaper than it is around here.

[angus]

$1.889 in columbus yesterday for cheapest grade

[Bogart]

I guess Im a bit of centerist here, I dont neccessarly think someones a person from conception though. I would probably go from brain activity.

Those of you who tell a woman that it is her fault and she should be made to suffer that way for her mistake should be ashamed of yourselves. Try walking in those shoes.

Bogart,
The argument would be that someone should provide care for the life they create, I believe abortion should be allowed very early. However the notion that pro-lifers are out to make women suffer is a bit childish. Suffering may be an unintended consequence but most pro-life people*I think* have made the determination that it is the lesser of two evils. I dont think anyone's out plotting to hurt other people or cause them to suffer.

Perhaps you interpretated that turn of phrase to mean more than I intended. I don't think the goal is to make a woman suffer. It is, however, a very real and well known implication of prohibiting abortion.  Futher, I think the characterization of such suffering as an "unintended consequence" is rather cold.

[??????????]

As of my post:

Strongly Pro-life             16 (23.5%)
Pro-life                          15 (22.1%)
In the middle                      13 (19.1%)
Pro-choice                       12 (17.6%)
Strongly Pro-Choice         12 (17.6%)

It's hard to get more divided than that!

just curious dale, where are ya?

at the moment, I'm about 7 miles from the Al state line in Lowndes County, MS.  nearest big city is birmingham (circa 2 hours)

DeKalb County, about a half hour's drive from Ft. Payne (home of country music group Alabama).

I'm about as far from the GA line as you are from MS, which is good, because gas in GA is about a dime cheaper than it is around here.

Alabama, certainly one of the best music groups ever.

[angus]

Lynnyrd Skynnyrd's better, though.

Niel Young ain't bad, either.   

[??????????]

Lynnyrd Skynnyrd's better, though.

Niel Young ain't bad, either.   

Yeah, Freebird kicks ass too.

[angus]

Tuesday's gone with the wind.

I like that long piano solo. 

[Vincent]

I guess Im a bit of centerist here, I dont neccessarly think someones a person from conception though. I would probably go from brain activity.

Those of you who tell a woman that it is her fault and she should be made to suffer that way for her mistake should be ashamed of yourselves. Try walking in those shoes.

Bogart,
The argument would be that someone should provide care for the life they create, I believe abortion should be allowed very early. However the notion that pro-lifers are out to make women suffer is a bit childish. Suffering may be an unintended consequence but most pro-life people*I think* have made the determination that it is the lesser of two evils. I dont think anyone's out plotting to hurt other people or cause them to suffer.

Perhaps you interpretated that turn of phrase to mean more than I intended. I don't think the goal is to make a woman suffer. It is, however, a very real and well known implication of prohibiting abortion.  Futher, I think the characterization of such suffering as an "unintended consequence" is rather cold.

Sorry. My mistake, but I certainly didnt mean to be cold. I was just trying to explain a "lesser of two evils" situation. I know its hard.

[A18]

Those of you who tell a woman that it is her fault and she should be made to suffer that way for her mistake should be ashamed of yourselves.

Um, why?

[angus]

because it's inhumane. 

one side is selfish, the other inhumane, on this issue.

I'd really like to see it just go away.

why not just have a plutocratic viewpoint and be done with it:  you can have as many abortions as you like, in whatever stage of the pregnancy you like, and by whatever means you prefer, just don't ask me to pay for it?  Seriously, everybody minds his or her own business and it'll be okay.

I'm really a total fascist on this issue, but I get so goddamned tired of hearing about it when there really are important issues that our congress ought to be discussing.  Goddammit.

Okay, I'm frothing now.  Guess I should go to bed.  Sorry folks.  Goodnight.  plane to catch tommorow and all.  oh, man thanksgiving week.  what a relief!

[Redefeatbush04]

because it's inhumane. 

one side is selfish, the other inhumane, on this issue.

I'd really like to see it just go away.

It is a difficult supercharged divisive issue, and many people feel that way. This is why it was talked about so infrequently during the election campaigns