Israel-Gaza war

[Horus]

Anecdotally I've seen and heard a lot of normies getting less comfortable with Israel's actions. Walking into my apartment building and overhearing my middle-aged Black doorman talking about child casualties in Gaza as a "disproportionate response" is probably not something that would have happened a decade ago. Claiming this is the same "minority" as always is wishcasting.

And Online absolutely can be representative. If not only many mainstream Democrats, but also Piers Morgan and Cindy McCain, are getting cold feet, where is the general public moving? And this is where polls become an issue--the ones released after October 7th and the ones released now are not showing the same things.
https://twitter.com/USA_Polling/status/1717972026890060132?s=20

In 10 years time or so I'm guessing we'll be like the UK with about a third of the country in each camp. A huge proportion of Israel lovers are geriatric. A lot of younger conservatives are anti Israel too, or at least wanna stop the funding.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1719406520557814207

If the war’s end means Netanyahu’s (and I’m not sure it does - his original coalition partners probably want to remain in charge), then he will try to maintain (at least) an impression of a long war.

I don't understand why the Israeli people aren't demanding elections now. He got over 1,000 of them killed by pampering the settlers and ignoring everything else. Why do they trust him to lead this invasion?

[Horus]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

Without US security assurance and armaments, and without the de facto bribes given in the form of aid to nations like Egypt and Jordan (some of the biggest recipients of US aid after Israel itself) to keep them on Israel's good side, it becomes a much shakier proposition.
Israeli government would certainly have to at least think twice about how they treat their Arab population without their sugar daddy standing behind them.

We had this discussion a few pages back. Vosem said that if we cut off Israel, Gaza would be flattened (even more than is already the case I guess) and Ray agreed.

Like I said it's similar to a child throwing a huge tantrum in a store if they don't get their favorite candy. Such things tend to happen to parents who spoil their kids without giving them rules and limits.

[Horus]

This is all highly organized. It's not just that it's not representative, it's that it's actively non-representative, with the intention of deceiving the pols and drowning out the majority.

They've also made their pet issue toxic. Note how all the reps suddenly calling for a temporary stop to the fighting are using the random term "humanitarian pause" because "Cease-fire" has become associated with the fringe.

1. Almost everyone is saying ceasefire
2. Ignore this all you want just like you ignore the situation in Gaza, but it will come back to bite you

You don't get that Biden can't stop this. No one can. After what Hamas has done, this is the path of action that ends with the least horror, and all the people advocating for radical moves are advocating for opening pandora's box.

Israel is dependent on the United States for its existence.

This may have been true once upon a time, but it has been wishful thinking which (unfortunately) has misinformed US policy for a very long time. There will eventually be a rude awakening.

Without US security assurance and armaments, and without the de facto bribes given in the form of aid to nations like Egypt and Jordan (some of the biggest recipients of US aid after Israel itself) to keep them on Israel's good side, it becomes a much shakier proposition.
Israeli government would certainly have to at least think twice about how they treat their Arab population without their sugar daddy standing behind them.

We had this discussion a few pages back. Vosem said that if we cut off Israel, Gaza would be flattened (even more than is already the case I guess) and Ray agreed.

Like I said it's similar to a child throwing a huge tantrum in a store if they don't get their favorite candy. Such things tend to happen to parents who spoil their children without giving them rules and limits.

Did I say that? I said that if Israel not being cut off was actually restraining the state, then it should be cut off. There's room to argue this point, but the official position of both the US and Israeli governments is that the US is not actually restraining Israel at all. (My guess is that admitting that the US is restraining Israel, if it were true, would be unpopular with the electorate).

Your posts are getting Badger-ian in the extent to which you really don't want to engage with what I'm writing and so you kind of just impute some imagined extremist that only exists in your head. This is particularly frustrating because relative to what you think what I'm writing is plenty extreme, but you keep responding to an imaginary version of it.

You are an extremist on this issue and I'm not imagining it.

You think Western media is biased against Israel and rich countries/people lmao

[Horus]

Snip

I will admit I was reading too quickly and got mixed up. I'm glad you have the self awareness to know your views are extreme. I'd also call them satanic but hey, tomato tomahto.

[Horus]

The strike on the refugee camp by the IDF is horrific and unacceptable. Shame on Netanyahu and his ilk.

Atrocities do not justify atrocities.

I don't think a Gantz or Lapid led gov would've done anything differently here.

[Horus]

God bless Jimmy Carter.

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1719419239025488311?t=-mF1ASi76DpBiUnow2gJGw&...

[Horus]

Been following this guy a lot. I think he has things exactly right here.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1720158535848276004?t=Pu8QdbeDUQKQVT0ylU3...

[Horus]

Funny, we have no data showing us what Gazans think since an election decades ago, but here we have proof that close to 50% of Israelis have the same attitude towards civilians as Hamas (with another 35% close behind). Yet it's the Gazan civilians we're supposed to be worried about?

[Horus]

Sociopathic electorate. Bibi's done after this war if not sooner but expecting a new government to take a less belligerent stance towards Palestine is the zenith of naivete.

I think this is a very reasonable electorate under these wartime circumstances.  This is merely the logic of "I care about my son more than my nephew, I care about my nephew more than a distant relative, I care about my distant relative more than ... etc etc" applied recursively.  In the end, people care more about their kin than those who are not kin.

Well you're also a sociopath so that makes sense.

[Horus]

Whilst such poll findings are sobering, they are roughly what you would expect in the circumstances - I have little doubt that surveys of Allied countries in WW2 would have shown very similar figures.

And the Allied countries would've been wrong to think that.

They. Are. Civilians.

[Horus]

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Oooh a personal message. I'm sure they're shaking in their boots.

Also neither of them support Hamas and your baseless allegations are repulsive. AFE is one of the best people here.

[Horus]

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Oooh a personal message. I'm sure they're shaking in their boots.

Also neither of them support Hamas and your baseless allegations are repulsive. AFE is one of the best people here.

Hamas terrorists engaged in unspeakable atrocities against Jews.

If you call this "baseless allegations", you are mentally ill.

Having a Palestinian flag on your profile doesn't signify support for Hamas

[Horus]

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Oooh a personal message. I'm sure they're shaking in their boots.

Also neither of them support Hamas and your baseless allegations are repulsive. AFE is one of the best people here.

Hamas terrorists engaged in unspeakable atrocities against Jews.

If you call this "baseless allegations", you are mentally ill.

Having a Palestinian flag on your profile doesn't signify support for Hamas you absolute moron. You're either 12 or 65, which is it?

I will not discuss any longer with you, because you are clearly a terror-loving Hamas/Palestianian supporter too ... and I don't debate with terrorists.

Enjoy your safe space.

[Horus]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

[Horus]

Bruh.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884?t=lBcBa13yzPZsPl0W...

Obviously Israel would be a total pariah state if they used one. Do they have tactical nukes? Because a normal sized nuke is going to do significant damage to Israel too, seeing as the furthest part of Gaza is something like 8 miles from Israel. Also, is this the first official confirmation as to Israel being a nuclear power?

I think so. Bibi is pissed and claims the minister is crazy, but I think he's more upset that this Eliyahu guy said the quiet part out loud in regards to both having nukes and possible plans to use one.

[Horus]

Vosem vindicated once again on this issue.

Lmao no. More like the msm is going from extremely pro Israel to moderately pro Israel, if that.

Meanwhile Israeli ministers are calling for nuclear war.

[Horus]

Ohio class submarine spotted in Suez Canal.


US military deploys nuclear-powered submarine in Middle East (FoxNews)

For any military enthusiasts, these are the crème de la crème of submarines.

170m long, 150 Tomahawk Cruise missiles on board and an undisclosed number of nuclear warheads. These things are simply next level instruments of war, a one-third part of the 'Dr Strangelove' suite of nuclear deterrents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine

The US rarely confirms the presence of their nuclear subs, but it is thought between 2-4 travel with each Carrier Strike group.

Looks like they are travelling to the Straight of Hormuz. I can't imagine using them to shoot down drones from Yemeni Houthi's.

I went and watched the news on BBC. I have seen some sad and dreary crap in my life, but never anything as lifeless and hopelessly mundane as their coverage.

Channel 4 is starting to turn pro-Palestinian. They give the Israeli military guys a hard time  but no intelligent questions.

Al-Jazeera was there a month ago. I saw a report on their channel about Hamas having similarities to BLM in the USA?

ABC Australia are anti-Israeli and have been from day 1.

I just want the scientific facts of what is happening. The IDF are publishing some interesting developments, but the Western media are not publishing it or researching their news.

This must have occurred with the Ukraine war where it gets hard to find out what is going on.

You're such a victim.

[Horus]

Had no idea the settlers were also forcing out the ancient Armenian population. Just no shame.

https://twitter.com/syriahay/status/1721246182515917027?t=IJaYEU0Xup750-SvtjvnJQ...

[Horus]

I'm with you, but post this in the megathread or it'll get locked.

[Horus]

Biden not feeling Israeli plans to occupy Gaza.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721957062413042013?t=TuKGOk-Xd6F-f4VC...

[Horus]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-10/ty-article/.premium/israeli-media-watchdog-says-it-was-just-raising-questions-on-photographers-hamas-link/0000018b-b88c-dedf-adab-fd9cfae90000

Vosem would believe anything Israel says

I've expressed skepticism about Israeli government accounts in this thread. OTOH I think Palestinian liberationism should be destroyed and foreign sympathy for it should be driven to zero, so this has not been the main focus of my posts.

Wow, I've lost all respect for you. Hamas is not the same as Palestine. So you don't think Palestinians should have a state? You think they should continue to live under apartheid? You think 10,000 innocent deaths are ok?

Israel has the right to defend itself and get revenge on terrorists who did the Oct 7 attacks. But Hamas is a terrorist group who illegally seized control of the Gaza strip from the internationally recongized Palestinian Authority.

Blinken brings a notable shift in US language toward Israel as pressure mounts at home and abroad

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/10/politics/us-support-for-israel

Effect of the democratic voter base pressure at home, after the correlation was proved with the declining poll numbers for Joe Biden and the return of Donald Trump.

The rhetoric will change towards pressuring Israel more for a peaceful solution, but the actions will remain the same. Israel is too strategic to the United States on an economic and geopolitical level, as their door to have a say on what goes on in the Middle East.

They care about this relationship with Israel way more than with Palestinian non-white lives.

Israel is not white either so please stop with this nonsense

The Ashkenazim Jews are. They come from Europe.

This is a very Americanized view of race. I know it might surprise Red Velvet but Jews have long been hated by white supremacists. In fact, most consider them to be their worst enemy.

The American view is the correct view. It shouldn't be surprising that white supremacists are wrong. Jews from Europe are WHITE. They are European. They are Polish, Russian, German etc. Jews aren't a race, its a religion

Ashkenazi Jews are absolutely white but the majority of Jews in Israel aren't Ashkenazi.

I would also consider Sephardic Jews white.

Still, in the minds of most westerners, whether left or right, Israel is the white country and Palestine the non white country.

[Horus]

There are fewer than 1,000 Samaritans left in the world, but based on those charts they appear to have the closest connection to ancient Israel/Palestine/whatever along with Palestinian and Jordanian Christians. Interesting.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1723060216629977157

Is Trump the ONLY right-wing populist with an actual brain of the ones in the global right-wing populists club?

Seriously, he basically is throwing a line that can be perceived both as shade and as advice to Israel depending of the eyes of the beholder. That way he simultaneously manages to:

- Not alienate the harsh Pro-Israel right-wing Republican base that supports him and sees him as the Giant Friend of Israel, like Bibi does too.

- Signal to the Pro-Palestine crowd who is very angry with Joe Biden and the Democratic Party right now to pass as someone who is more moderate and able to “criticize” Israel even if he’s not really doing it.

It’s really smart for Trump to not commit too hard on any way on this issue, unlike Ukraine where it IS smart to polarize the American society in order to make Biden pass as this uncontrollable BIG spender on foreign causes that ignores the national well-being.

Because he only needs to keep the hard Pro-Israel voters that already love him, while opening a door for Pro-Palestine voters to be more angry with the current president, avoiding to show that he would come across as more Pro-Israel than Biden, stimulating these people to at least abstain.

He's not smart (see the last eight years). He's saying something which everyone but the hackiest of hacky Israel hacks knows. How Israel can send Netanyahu and these right-wing ghouls out to do PR and not expect a backlash is outright malpractice/stupidity. Netanyahu's face alone generates disgust.

Still, Biden has never said anything close to this negative about Israel. Trump could continue to chip away at the youth vote if he keeps this rhetoric up.

If he wins I expect his actions to be at least as pro Israel as Biden, probably moreso. But he's smart to hide that for now.

[Horus]

I suppose the most optimistic scenario is that hamas' control is as superficial as isis's was of mosul; and that everybody in gaza have hated their guts for years and even give them some of the blame for the carnage. Then you could indeed reintroduce PA authority over Gaza, although god knows what could happen then.

The PA s effectively no legitimacy left among t Palestinian population because it functions as a kleptocratic puppet state.

Also on another note it's kind of amazing the vile stuff Israeli settlement leaders will say while being interviewed.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

What are the borders of that Jewish nation?

The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest.

what

You're just now hearing about this? This is how most if not all of the settlers feel.