Israel-Gaza war

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Israel's experience with Gaza should serve as a counter-example to those who claim that withdrawing settlements from the West Bank (among other concessions) will lead to sustained peace between Israel and Palestine.  The past fifteen-plus years have convinced me that then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made a mistake with nothing to show for it, and that Israel will be better off reversing that decision, beginning with the elimination of Hamas (and other terrorist groups in Gaza) as an entity.  

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And I thought I was a pessimist.
I don't think Haley/Ryan really falls into the same bucket as Mattrose here. I'll be kind and say what he's proposing is...creative.
It's far from clear that it's really necessary.
It is true ethnic cleansing half a million is less bad than two million dying. But I'd hope we aren't at the point that such ideas are the main set of feasible options to proceed with.

Palestinians in Gaza have only themselves to blame if Israel is forced to resort to such measures to protect its own citizens. If Israel abandons the peace process with the Palestinians of the West Bank, they need only point to Gaza if anyone asks why.  

War crimes are never justifiable,

No, but thanks to the Gazans' perpetual war footing, the status quo is unsustainable.  Something has to give.  I'd rather it be them.  

Secondly, Gaza is a dictatorship.

They elected Hamas to power in the first place.  After Israel withdrew.  

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Once Hamas starts killing hostages en masse, there is nothing that will be able to save them and most likely nothing that will be able to save Gaza. Israel's rage will be such that it could very well spin out into a full regional war with Israel going full Allied bombing raids on the terrorists and their sponsors. So if possible, a joint US/Egypt invasion raid might just be the best option right now.

At most I can see us providing air support. I highly doubt we send ground troops

Not to mention it is unnecessary.  Israel is more than capable (and motivated) of executing a ground invasion on their own. And they are probably accustomed to guerrilla warfare by this point. 

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A full siege of Gaza is unacceptable. We are in the fog of war, but the response needs to both consider civilian lives and be proportionate to any military objective. Even in these conditions, civilians should get humanitarian aid. Fighting against 'human animals' (inappropriate language imo) does not mean all morality and restraint goes out the window.

Then how do you propose Israel respond, exactly? Hamas needs to be removed from power one way or another.

Actually he is making a good point in this sense -Hamas will likely go underground upon any invasion, so Israel will need to go on a 'hearts and minds' campaign to root them out.  So being cognizant of the welfare of Gazan civilians is in Israel's immediate interests, and will help them militarily.  Also, it will put to the test the claim made by some here that they are themselves hostages of Hamas (and other terrorist groups). 

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Fighting a successful war and changing political leadership isn't always incompatible. I will just point out the famous example of the UK in 1940-Winston Churchill became Prime Minister literally on the day that Nazi Germany invaded four countries including France.

Or Winston Churchill getting booted from power after WWII

Was this the mindset of voters in Britain in 1945 towards Winston Churchill right before he lost his bid for another term as Prime Minister?

'Thank you for your service to the defense of Britain and its empire.  You have served your purpose.  You may go now.'

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Since Iran sends weaponry to Hamas via underground tunnels from the Sinai to southern Gaza, perhaps it would make more sense for the IDF to concentrate their forces there (the southern Gaza border, that is) instead of Gaza City, and for Israel to formally annex the area, extending the vast underground Iron Wall network they already have elsewhere, and cut off the weapons pipeline once and for all.  Starve the beast before moving in for the kill, so to speak.  Hopefully that is already their plan.     

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The other comment I've heard from more than one person is that while its true that the Palestinian cause has been doomed by Hamas' terror attacks, it doesn't matter because the cause was doomed anyway; that all Hamas has accomplished was to accelerate the inevitable.

Quite. To quote a line that wasn't said by the man who turned down the offer to become Israel's President: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

The Palestinians have spent 75 years engaging in violence against Israel and gone backwards.

They might have learned something from Mahatma Gandhi and his liberation movement in British India if they bothered to early on.  Oh well.  They chose the path of violence, and this is where they ended up -staring down the barrel of genocide.

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The other comment I've heard from more than one person is that while its true that the Palestinian cause has been doomed by Hamas' terror attacks, it doesn't matter because the cause was doomed anyway; that all Hamas has accomplished was to accelerate the inevitable.

Quite. To quote a line that wasn't said by the man who turned down the offer to become Israel's President: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

The Palestinians have spent 75 years engaging in violence against Israel and gone backwards.

They might have learned something from Mahatma Gandhi and his liberation movement in British India if they bothered to early on.  Oh well.  They chose the path of violence, and this is where they ended up -staring down the barrel of genocide.

They tried that a few years ago and got massacred. Unreal levels of depravity on this forum.

Indeed, this kind of moralyzing posts claiming that Palestinians have a taste for violence and bear a collective guilt for the terrorist actions committed by some groups are appalling. The IDF massacred the March for Return a peaceful demonstration by the border fence in Gaza

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march....

  Israeli forces responded by shooting tear gas canisters, some of them dropped from drones, rubber bullets and live ammunition, mostly by snipers. As a result, 214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed, and over 36,100, including nearly 8,800 children have been injured. 

There were similar massacres of Indian nationalist protesters, most infamously the 1919 Amritsar massacre.  That did not stop Gandhi and his fellow liberationists from following the path of non-violence and civil disobedience.  That does not appear to be what happened in Palestine.  After that one massacre, that was it for pacifism.  So yes, I think Palestinians already were predisposed to use violence to achieve their ends, much more so than their Indian counterparts. 

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The other comment I've heard from more than one person is that while its true that the Palestinian cause has been doomed by Hamas' terror attacks, it doesn't matter because the cause was doomed anyway; that all Hamas has accomplished was to accelerate the inevitable.

Quite. To quote a line that wasn't said by the man who turned down the offer to become Israel's President: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

The Palestinians have spent 75 years engaging in violence against Israel and gone backwards.

They might have learned something from Mahatma Gandhi and his liberation movement in British India if they bothered to early on.  Oh well.  They chose the path of violence, and this is where they ended up -staring down the barrel of genocide.

They tried that a few years ago and got massacred. Unreal levels of depravity on this forum.

Indeed, this kind of moralyzing posts claiming that Palestinians have a taste for violence and bear a collective guilt for the terrorist actions committed by some groups are appalling. The IDF massacred the March for Return a peaceful demonstration by the border fence in Gaza

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-mar.....

  Israeli forces responded by shooting tear gas canisters, some of them dropped from drones, rubber bullets and live ammunition, mostly by snipers. As a result, 214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed, and over 36,100, including nearly 8,800 children have been injured. 

There were similar massacres of Indian nationalist protesters, most infamously the 1919 Amritsar massacre.  That did not stop Gandhi and his fellow liberationists from following the path of non-violence and civil disobedience.  That does not appear to be what happened in Palestine.  After that one massacre, that was it for pacifism.  So yes, I think Palestinians already were predisposed to use violence to achieve their ends, much more so than their Indian counterparts. 

 I think it's a tragedy the Palestinian people never had a leading political figure with the stature of Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela. For sure a clear leadership could have helped the Palestinian struggle for dignity. I'm certain that peaceful resistance could be very effective with a good strategy, but sadly the Palestinian people is divided and lacks unifying figures. You can't blame the common Palestinians that try to survive blockade in Gaza,and apartheid in the West Bank. Life is hard enough for them.

On the other hand, there is a lot of peaceful resistance throughout the Occupied Territories,  people trying to resist evictions and forced fisplacements in the West Bank or East Jerusalem... or simply protesting against the humiliations of the occupying forces. That resistance is weak and fragmented, mostly because Israel's strategy has been successful and makes Palestinian unity extremely difficult. There's little in common between Palestine today and India 100 years ago.

Finally I dispute the claim that Palestinians are more predisposed to violence than other peoples, namely the Indians. The Indian resistance could have followed many other paths without the figure of Mahatma Ghandi. Also, the violence and ethnic cleansing unleashed after the independence of India and Pakistan refutes your claim.

Be careful when attribiting bad traits to certain peoples. It may sound a bit racist

It is a pity they chose Yasser Arafat as their larger-than-life liberation figure. 

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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/us/politics/biden-israel-gaza.html

President Biden is warning Israel not occupy Gaza, since it will be a disaster. He does says he supports any military effort to destroy Hamas. But afterwards, the Gaza strip needs to be returned to the Palestitian Authroity like pre-2006.

Here I disagree with him -the border (and the adjacent lands) with Egypt at least should be overseen by Israel.  And underneath it especially.... 

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It is a testament to American influence (through President Biden) that Israel is still holding back from a full-scale invasion of Gaza, even after all this time since the initial massacres of October 7th by Hamas militants.  How long has it been -three weeks now?  

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It is a testament to American influence (through President Biden) that Israel is still holding back from a full-scale invasion of Gaza, even after all this time since the initial massacres of October 7th by Hamas militants.  How long has it been -three weeks now?

Not everything is always (entirely) about the US.

I have no doubt there are internal doubts within Israel about going in guns blazing into Gaza, but that hardly contradicts what I just said.  The fact we are Israel's single greatest ally, and that President Biden made an unambiguous statement of support to Israel immediately after that fateful day backed with aid are the major reasons why Israel is heeding our advice to hold back.  We are the only power in the world they trust.   

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If Israel could destroy Hamas and Islamic Jihad as a result of this war, it would have been all worth it in the end -at least to me.  And cutting off Gaza from the outside world by attacking first along the southern Rafah border, destroying the tunnel network there in the process preventing any chance of escape for Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists (keeping all the rats in one ship, so to speak), providing time to ensure the safety of hostages and minimizing civilian casualties while establishing refugee camps in the area under United Nations supervision before eventually moving in for the final kill in Gaza City would have been the best way to do that.  I see now that made too much sense for the Israeli leadership:

The Israeli military’s seizure of Al-Shifa Hospital, Gaza’s largest medical complex, is central to the military strategy at the heart of the ground invasion: Eradicate Hamas and free roughly 240 hostages taken during the Oct. 7 surprise attack.

(...) So far it is not clear that the Israeli strategy is working.

U.S. military officials said their Israeli counterparts tell them to expect more weeks of clearing operations in the north before Israel prepares a separate initiative in southern Gaza, widening the offensive.

But U.S. officials said Israel’s rapid decision to launch ground operations in the enclave left Israeli commanders little time for extensive planning to mitigate risks to civilians and all but guaranteed a high civilian death toll.

The hospital has become a particular flashpoint. The military has yet to present public evidence of an extensive tunnel network and command center under Al-Shifa, and Israel is coming under growing international pressure to show that the hospital was a critical military objective.

Targeting Al-Shifa Hospital was “not the result of a strategy,” said Giora Eiland, a retired major general in the Israel Defense Forces and former head of the Israeli National Security Council. “It is more an important tactical maneuver” in Israel’s attempt to control the narrative about Hamas, he said.

While Hamas commanders might have been under Al-Shifa at the start of the war, Mr. Eiland said, most of them have evacuated to the south. As a result, he said, Israel will have to evacuate civilians and target Hamas brigades there in the coming weeks and months. Mr. Eiland predicted that this might be complicated by an international community losing patience with Israel.

Yagil Levy, an expert on the Israeli military, said that attacking Al-Shifa was “a show of power and might rather than part of a clear strategy.” In doing so, Dr. Levy said, Israel might have jeopardized the hostages’ lives.

source

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Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

[Frodo]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment. 

[Frodo]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment.  

I doubt there was a possibility to destroy Hamas and it's a crying shame the US and its allies have been supporting a military offensive that looks like a genocide

Under better leadership, Israel could have come up with an actual workable strategy to not only free the hostages but also destroy Hamas at minimal cost (in lives, and in every other sense of the word).  That was a real possibility.  They had that window of opportunity.  But it seems they learned nothing from our post-9/11 experience.      

[Frodo]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment.  

Why won't they be able to destroy Hamas fighting like this? How else can you destroy an organization which has fortified a city?*

Israel can't sustain an operation like this without outside support, primarily from the United States.  If you are losing the public relations war here, it is only a matter of time before you lose militarily as well.  We learned that hard lesson after the 1968 Tet offensive.  And they are losing the PR war.  

(And in what way is support from the US going to erode?

I doubt it has gotten any better since then:

US public support for Israel drops; majority backs a ceasefire, Reuters/Ipsos shows

All of the major congressional leaders remain committed to hugely increasing US military aid to Israel in the next budget. I don't think US government support for the current conflict has even actually peaked.)

Tell that to the House Republican Conference.  Evidently they view both Israel and Ukraine as expendable and subordinate to their overring interest over the US/Mexico border, and carrying water for Donald Trump.  

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Let Israel destroy Hamas first.  Only then can we seriously talk about a cease fire.  

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Is that how it is here?  Fine, I can play that game too:

Judging by the trajectory of anti-Vietnam War protests, it is only a matter of time before you all will be waving Hamas flags in the streets during your protests and demonstrations alongside your Palestinian flags, chanting 'we are all Hamas!'.  How soon will it be before some of you will be openly wishing the Nazis had 'finished the job' in news interviews, assuming you aren't doing so already?  No one outside your movement actually likes you. Have you ever wondered about that?   

[Frodo]

Is that how it is here?  Fine, I can play that game too:

Judging by the trajectory of anti-Vietnam War protests, it is only a matter of time before you all will be waving Hamas flags in the streets during your protests and demonstrations alongside your Palestinian flags, chanting 'we are all Hamas!'.  How soon will it be before some of you will be openly wishing the Nazis had 'finished the job' in news interviews, assuming you aren't doing so already?  No one outside your movement actually likes you. Have you ever wondered about that?  

Just want to say that I believe Horus is Jewish and I am too. So please apologize and enough with your disgusting assumptions based on nothing

For what?  You make claims I support genocide, and now that I insult you back, you act offended?  Spare me your fake outrage.  

[Frodo]

Is that how it is here?  Fine, I can play that game too:

Judging by the trajectory of anti-Vietnam War protests, it is only a matter of time before you all will be waving Hamas flags in the streets during your protests and demonstrations alongside your Palestinian flags, chanting 'we are all Hamas!'.  How soon will it be before some of you will be openly wishing the Nazis had 'finished the job' in news interviews, assuming you aren't doing so already?  No one outside your movement actually likes you. Have you ever wondered about that?  

Just want to say that I believe Horus is Jewish and I am too. So please apologize and enough with your disgusting assumptions based on nothing

For what?  You make claims I support genocide, and now that I insult you back, you act offended?  Spare me your fake outrage.  

The problem is making a vague, feelgood vibes statement like "destroy Hamas".

The only sure fire 100% guaranteed way of achieving this is killing or expelling every last Palestinian in Gaza - this is what some in Israel (including in the government) openly call for. And even someone
relatively respected like the Israeli president says that there are "no innocent Palestinians".

So, accepting that you do not actually want this, *how* exactly is Hamas going to be "destroyed"?

As I mentioned earlier in this megathread (it's in there, somewhere...), my personal preference on how I would have wanted this war to be conducted was for Israel to make its full massive offensive along the Gaza-Egypt border (instead of Gaza City), capturing Rafah and adjacent territory, and permanently annexing the territory in question to Israel to prevent any further infusion of weapons to Hamas by underground tunnels.  With Hamas cut off from the outside world, Israel would conduct more precise and surgical attacks to the north by Mossad and other special forces units, with a hearts-and-minds strategy (this is assuming civilians in Gaza are victims of Hamas too), destroying Hamas units, capturing or killing their leadership, and reclaiming the hostages with civilian intel.  With the twin missions accomplished, Gaza's independence would then be restored to it under Israel's watchful eye, albeit shorn of its territory along the border with Egypt.  And all without the genocide of the Gazan population -that option was there.  Clearly Netanyahu and his government had other ideas...  

I still want Hamas destroyed, though.  No amount of shaming would persuade me otherwise. To do any less would be a disservice to the victims of October 7th.  

 

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Lula should concentrate on saving the Amazon (what's left of it, anyways) and by extension the planet, and leave foreign policy to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

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Al-Jazeera has latched on to the generational gap that is opening a wide fissure within the Democratic Party:

Generation gap: What student protests say about US politics, Israel support
Experts say growing protest movement on university campuses could help shift US policy on Israel in the long term.

At the very least, it is safe to say that President Biden will be the last Democrat elected to the nation's highest office to unequivocally support Israel.  Going forward, it will be a Republican position. 

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https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/1786717441529188604?t=cCLNz_PoA016U-VZiwhp...

Yay?

It was a terrible deal

https://twitter.com/IsraelRadar_com/status/1786666447160177068

This has to be a very bad joke.