Israel-Gaza war

[Horus]

Also, the US will be much more evangelical and very likely view the Israeli state more favorably than it does now in 15-20 years.

Irreligiosity is increasing every year. Wtf are you talking about?

I think he likes getting dunked on. At this point I'm not sure what else could lead someone to pick the obviously wrong viewpoint on literally everything. Remember he's an admitted masochist. This isn't a personal attack, he's said so himself.

[Aurelius2]

My grandmother has boarded her flight out of Israel, thank God.

Landed safely on American soil a few hours ago. I can breathe easy now.

[pppolitics]

Also, the US will be much more evangelical and very likely view the Israeli state more favorably than it does now in 15-20 years.

Irreligiosity is increasing every year. Wtf are you talking about?

I think he likes getting dunked on. At this point I'm not sure what else could lead someone to pick the obviously wrong viewpoint on literally everything. Remember he's an admitted masochist. This isn't a personal attack, he's said so himself.

Vosem said earlier that the Palestinians had no right to a state and Israel is entitled to Gaza and West Bank, so you know where he stands.

[Vosem]

Also, the US will be much more evangelical and very likely view the Israeli state more favorably than it does now in 15-20 years.

Irreligiosity is increasing every year. Wtf are you talking about?

Irreligiosity is increasing every year, but so is self-identification as 'evangelical'. (So is self-identification as 'Muslim', for that matter, though it is orders of magnitude less common). At exit polling (throwing out 2022!), self-identification as 'evangelical' rose monotonously at every election starting in 1992, when the question was first asked and only 17% of Americans identified that way, and continuing to 2020, when it had risen to 28%. (2022 saw it crash to 24%, or the same as the number from 2006; my guess is that it took a one-time hit from Dobbs with non-religious people who still identified as 'evangelical' ceasing to do so en masse).

Irreligiosity rising does not mean that every religious tradition is declining. Evangelicalism virtually certainly rose as a percentage of the population throughout the 2010s (although the 2020s data that we have is much more equivocal), even though irreligiosity was rising at the same time. America today is, by any metric at all, more evangelical than it was prior to 2006 at the very earliest, and is probably more 'sincerely evangelical' than it has ever been. This makes sense because all indicators are that evangelicals have significantly higher birthrates than non-evangelicals, and also more people convert to being evangelical than leave. (This is non-obvious because people leaving are overwhelmingly young, while people joining are overwhelmingly middle-aged or elderly; which means that this whole thing is questionably sustainable, but it's been going on for quite a while at this point).

(Irreligiosity is rising almost entirely at the expense of Catholicism and mainline Protestantism, not evangelicalism).

(Growth in the evangelical population is how you can explain bizarre phenomena like the last Republican presidential campaign to gain among non-evangelicals being Bush 2000...but the GOP winning two more times anyway. "Evangelicals" are a growing subset of society, even if "religious people" are not.)

Also, the US will be much more evangelical and very likely view the Israeli state more favorably than it does now in 15-20 years.

Irreligiosity is increasing every year. Wtf are you talking about?

I think he likes getting dunked on. At this point I'm not sure what else could lead someone to pick the obviously wrong viewpoint on literally everything. Remember he's an admitted masochist. This isn't a personal attack, he's said so himself.

Vosem said earlier that the Palestinians had no right to a state and Israel is entitled to Gaza and West Bank, so you know where he stand.

Yes, this would be what international law would have to say under normal circumstances.

Also, the US will be much more evangelical and very likely view the Israeli state more favorably than it does now in 15-20 years.

Irreligiosity is increasing every year. Wtf are you talking about?

I think he likes getting dunked on. At this point I'm not sure what else could lead someone to pick the obviously wrong viewpoint on literally everything. Remember he's an admitted masochist. This isn't a personal attack, he's said so himself.

When did I say that? I literally searched 'masochist' in my posting history and came up with a quote from 2012 when I said I'm not one, and no other usage of the word.

I've held virtually all of my current positions for the past decade plus, and many of them (including Israel/Palestine!) I've advocated for out in the real world.

[Vosem]

15-20 years from now, the American public would be wondering how the US became complicit in Israel’s war crimes.

I get to say with a straight face that, although it wasn’t a popular position then, I wasn’t one of those complicit Americans.

15-20 years from now there will most likely be another large-scale terrorist attack motivated by Islamism somewhere in the First World which will re-radicalize everyone all over again. (Also, the US will be much more evangelical and very likely view the Israeli state more favorably than it does now in 15-20 years.)

I guess you haven’t heard, but the US is becoming less and less religious.

As an atheist, I will be in good company.

On the one hand, yes, this is correct.

But on the other hand, you're going to like the people who stay religious less and less, because while irreligiosity is getting more common the religious beliefs that you (I think) would particularly dislike are also becoming more common.

[Ferguson97]

I am not bragging , just being honest that yes without hindsight I would have supported that blunder

Maybe you should take that as a sign that your instincts are terrible that you should and adapt accordingly.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I am not bragging , just being honest that yes without hindsight I would have supported that blunder

Maybe you should take that as a sign that your instincts are terrible that you should and adapt accordingly.

Everyone's ideology has errors. I can point to plenty of disastrous mistakes that Isolationists and Liberal Internationalists would have supported too.

[Vosem]

Anyway, while the 2014-2018 war in Iraq made relatively little impact on the US public at the time, except that ISIS started being common stock villains -- most likely because in the entirety of Operation Inherent Resolve, largely a bombing operation which supported locals on the ground, where there were only 20 American deaths -- it should be noted that the West has in fact launched Gaza-style attacks on cities killing tens of thousands in response to much smaller provocations than Hamas's attack from last weekend.

https://twitter.com/MelekTawuse/status/1713609334901325848

"America will judge Israel in 15-20 years" is pretty unlikely, because the historical record suggests America will have conducted several of its own Gaza Wars by that point.

The demands that Israel not reoccupy the Gaza Strip and destroy Hamas in a campaign of large-scale bombing are a demand that Israel not destroy Hamas at all, or ideally just not fight a war. These demands are very often (including in this thread!) fundamentally motivated by sympathy to Palestinian liberationism, about which I think I've said everything I need to say.

(None of this is to say that Israel should try to maximize civilian casualties: it absolutely should not, and doing so would be a horrible crime. But there's no evidence that it's trying to -- indeed, things like evacuation warnings were not practiced by the West in Operation Inherent Resolve -- and there is no law that says countries should try to minimize civilian casualties in ways that endanger its own military or the success of the operation. In 15-20 years I doubt we'll have a more complicated story about this war than there was about Operation Inherent Resolve.)

[Silent Hunter]

Worth reading that thread in full. Hamas have quite possibly destroyed the Palestinian cause with their actions.

[Vosem]

Daesh were also carrying out a genocide against the Yazidi.

The total number of Yazidis killed by ISIS was around 5,000, and that was over several years; compare around 1,000 victims of last weekend's attack who were Israeli citizens (also motivated by annihilationism). I don't think this comparison says the thing you want it to say.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Worth reading that thread in full. Hamas have quite possibly destroyed the Palestinian cause with their actions.

However else I feel about the whole horrific conflict, both historically and presently, I suspect you're right about this. (With the possible exception that even worse are more excessive responses by Netanyahu's government may restore sympathy for the Palestinians.)

The other comment I've heard from more than one person is that while its true that the Palestinian cause has been doomed by Hamas' terror attacks, it doesn't matter because the cause was doomed anyway; that all Hamas has accomplished was to accelerate the inevitable.

[Silent Hunter]

The other comment I've heard from more than one person is that while its true that the Palestinian cause has been doomed by Hamas' terror attacks, it doesn't matter because the cause was doomed anyway; that all Hamas has accomplished was to accelerate the inevitable.

Quite. To quote a line that wasn't said by the man who turned down the offer to become Israel's President: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

The Palestinians have spent 75 years engaging in violence against Israel and gone backwards.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

My grandmother has boarded her flight out of Israel, thank God.

Landed safely on American soil a few hours ago. I can breathe easy now.

Good to hear.

[Frodo]

The other comment I've heard from more than one person is that while its true that the Palestinian cause has been doomed by Hamas' terror attacks, it doesn't matter because the cause was doomed anyway; that all Hamas has accomplished was to accelerate the inevitable.

Quite. To quote a line that wasn't said by the man who turned down the offer to become Israel's President: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."

The Palestinians have spent 75 years engaging in violence against Israel and gone backwards.

They might have learned something from Mahatma Gandhi and his liberation movement in British India if they bothered to early on.  Oh well.  They chose the path of violence, and this is where they ended up -staring down the barrel of genocide.

[Saint Milei]

"what would you do?"

Yeah bro don't tell me you wouldn't go into Iraq after 911!

What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? Or was this intended as a personal insult to another poster’s intelligence, implying they would confuse the two?

I can't help you if you don't get what I said

[Saint Milei]

"what would you do?"


Yeah bro don't tell me you wouldn't go into Iraq after 911!

I have said before that without hindsight I would have supported invading Iraq . I would have been a massive fan of George W Bush in late 2003 as well

That's really not something to brag about.

Osr made me like a horus post. The West has truly fallen

[OSR stands with Israel]

"what would you do?"

Yeah bro don't tell me you wouldn't go into Iraq after 911!

What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? Or was this intended as a personal insult to another poster’s intelligence, implying they would confuse the two?

I can't help you if you don't get what I said

I am willing to admit the flaws with my ideology, are you with yours . 1920s and 1930s US isolationism was a massive failure . For progressives , the Jimmy Carter presidency shows how much a failure their ideology can be on Foreign policy as well .

Face it , all our ideologies have had moments where we were correct or very wrong and acknowledging that is better than remaining such an ideologue

[OSR stands with Israel]

"what would you do?"


Yeah bro don't tell me you wouldn't go into Iraq after 911!

I have said before that without hindsight I would have supported invading Iraq . I would have been a massive fan of George W Bush in late 2003 as well

That's really not something to brag about.

I am not bragging , just being honest that yes without hindsight I would have supported that blunder .

Most isolationists though would have opposed Lend Lease and entering WW2 prior to Pearl Harbor but most pretend they wouldn’t have . Just look how many times when you confront them on this point their argument is , you can’t compare them to the Nazis . That argument is absurd because the vast majority is isolationists in 1940 didn’t view the Nazis as any different than the German Empire so they should admit their ideology has flaws too .

I'm open about it. No, ww2 was a mistake. Fdr provoked a war and yes, you can't compare right now to the Nazis but if we did, Israel is Nazi Germany.

Lmao just Lmao .


Also how can you claim to be “America First” if you think are embargo of Japan is An act of war . You are basically saying other nations then have a right to trade with us which isn’t very “America First”

[Saint Milei]

15-20 years from now, the American public would be wondering how the US became complicit in Israel’s war crimes.

I get to say with a straight face that, although it wasn’t a popular position then, I wasn’t one of those complicit Americans.

15-20 years from now there will most likely be another large-scale terrorist attack motivated by Islamism somewhere in the First World which will re-radicalize everyone all over again. (Also, the US will be much more evangelical and very likely view the Israeli state more favorably than it does now in 15-20 years.)

The US will be more secular and hate Israel

[Saint Milei]

"what would you do?"

Yeah bro don't tell me you wouldn't go into Iraq after 911!

What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? Or was this intended as a personal insult to another poster’s intelligence, implying they would confuse the two?

I can't help you if you don't get what I said

I am willing to admit the flaws with my ideology, are you with yours . 1920s and 1930s US isolationism was a massive failure . For progressives , the Jimmy Carter presidency shows how much a failure their ideology can be on Foreign policy as well .

Face it , all our ideologies have had moments where we were correct or very wrong and acknowledging that is better than remaining such an ideologue

The u.s. literally devastated Latin American countries in central America during the 20s and 30s so calling us isolationist is laughable. It's not our fault Hitler emerged and even if it was, isolationists didn't create the environment for him to emerge.

[Saint Milei]

"what would you do?"


Yeah bro don't tell me you wouldn't go into Iraq after 911!

I have said before that without hindsight I would have supported invading Iraq . I would have been a massive fan of George W Bush in late 2003 as well

That's really not something to brag about.

I am not bragging , just being honest that yes without hindsight I would have supported that blunder .

Most isolationists though would have opposed Lend Lease and entering WW2 prior to Pearl Harbor but most pretend they wouldn’t have . Just look how many times when you confront them on this point their argument is , you can’t compare them to the Nazis . That argument is absurd because the vast majority is isolationists in 1940 didn’t view the Nazis as any different than the German Empire so they should admit their ideology has flaws too .

I'm open about it. No, ww2 was a mistake. Fdr provoked a war and yes, you can't compare right now to the Nazis but if we did, Israel is Nazi Germany.

Lmao just Lmao .


Also how can you claim to be “America First” if you think are embargo of Japan is An act of war . You are basically saying other nations then have a right to trade with us which isn’t very “America First”

First off, America First is an old right slogan that focuses on war. I'm the only right poster on this website so I'm the only one that can even use that phrase accurately. Secondly, the embargo on Japan was retarded and didn't help us at all. Fdr slapped the embargo to get involved more and Japans life was on the line during the war which forced them to retaliate. What benefit did the embargo provide for the u.s.? And yes, an embargo, during war times, is an actual of war.

[OSR stands with Israel]

"what would you do?"

Yeah bro don't tell me you wouldn't go into Iraq after 911!

What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? Or was this intended as a personal insult to another poster’s intelligence, implying they would confuse the two?

I can't help you if you don't get what I said

I am willing to admit the flaws with my ideology, are you with yours . 1920s and 1930s US isolationism was a massive failure . For progressives , the Jimmy Carter presidency shows how much a failure their ideology can be on Foreign policy as well .

Face it , all our ideologies have had moments where we were correct or very wrong and acknowledging that is better than remaining such an ideologue

The u.s. literally devastated Latin American countries in central America during the 20s and 30s so calling us isolationist is laughable. It's not our fault Hitler emerged and even if it was, isolationists didn't create the environment for him to emerge.

Multiple things can be true at the same time :

You blame Hawks and Liberal Internationalists for the way they dealt with the aftermath of WW1 and helping creating the conditions for the Nazis to rise but you can also blame the isolationists for putting their head in the sand and doing nothing in the mid to late 1930s to stop Hitler . Yes mistakes you made in the past can cause massive problems but the answer to that isn’t to just ignore the problems, but rather fix the problem then learn from prior mistakes so you don’t need to deal with such a problem again .

Being so ideological when it comes to foreign policy is a massive mistake and leads to failure

[Vosem]

First off, America First is an old right slogan that focuses on war. I'm the only right poster on this website so I'm the only one that can even use that phrase accurately. Secondly, the embargo on Japan was retarded and didn't help us at all. Fdr slapped the embargo to get involved more and Japans life was on the line during the war which forced them to retaliate. What benefit did the embargo provide for the u.s.? And yes, an embargo, during war times, is an actual of war.

Bold of you to suggest that you are "the only right poster on this website", but perhaps even bolder to suggest that it is possible at all to use phrases "accurately". (Consistently with prior usage, fine, but "accurately"?)

[NOVA Green]

WTF?

Why has this thread once again devolved to the point where various individuals are debating the merits of US involvement in WWII and American Isolationism?

Meanwhile, WHO warns that Israel's order for Palestinians to evacuate (21) hospitals violates international law.

Israel ordered 21 hospitals in Gaza to evacuate, according to the World Health Organization. The WHO added four hospitals in northern Gaza are no longer functioning as a result of damage and targeting.

"Forced evacuation of hospitals may amount to a violation of International Humanitarian Law," the WHO said.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-15/ty-article-live/

[NOVA Green]

Meanwhile, spillover from the Israeli-Hamas War is being felt diplomatically in Latin America.

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs summoned Colombia's Ambassador to Israel, Margarita Manjarez, reprimanding her for what they characterized as "hostile and antisemitic statements against the State of Israel" made by the President of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, last week.

The ministry's statement expressed Israel's condemnation of the President's statements, considering them as supportive of the horrific acts of Hamas terrorists, escalating antisemitism, causing harm to representatives of the State of Israel, and posing a threat to the safety of the Jewish community in Colombia.

[There is more to the article]

Meanwhile, Abbas had a conversation with Madero of Venezuela:

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said that the actions and policies of Hamas do not represent the Palestinian people, the Palestinian Wafa News Agency reported.

In a conversation with Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, Abbas said that his organization, the PLO, is the only official representative of the Palestinian people.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-15/ty-article-live/