Israel-Gaza war

[MasterJedi]

Yep, Biden said in his speech that he saw pictures of terrorists beheading children.

There's no coming back from that. I don't know how Israel lets Hamas survive this war.

Because Israel can never actually eliminate Hamas, it’s a terrorist organization. What they’re about to do will only strengthen them. There is no good answer.

[Birdish]

Yep, Biden said in his speech that he saw pictures of terrorists beheading children.

There's no coming back from that. I don't know how Israel lets Hamas survive this war.

Because Israel can never actually eliminate Hamas, it’s a terrorist organization. What they’re about to do will only strengthen them. There is no good answer.

I'm not sure what the logistics of completely eliminating a terrorist organization is, but the fact that Israel has mobilized 300k solders for a ground invasion makes me think they're going to try as hard as they can.

[Vosem]

Yep, Biden said in his speech that he saw pictures of terrorists beheading children.

There's no coming back from that. I don't know how Israel lets Hamas survive this war.

Because Israel can never actually eliminate Hamas, it’s a terrorist organization. What they’re about to do will only strengthen them. There is no good answer.

Sure they can. What happened to the PFLP?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yep, Biden said in his speech that he saw pictures of terrorists beheading children.

There's no coming back from that. I don't know how Israel lets Hamas survive this war.

Because Israel can never actually eliminate Hamas, it’s a terrorist organization. What they’re about to do will only strengthen them. There is no good answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam

[ProudModerate2]

Yep, Biden said in his speech that he saw pictures of terrorists beheading children.
There's no coming back from that. I don't know how Israel lets Hamas survive this war.

Because Israel can never actually eliminate Hamas, it’s a terrorist organization. What they’re about to do will only strengthen them. There is no good answer.

Unfortunately, I agree with this.
Many of these terrorists are hiding as "normal Palestinian citizens" in the Gaza Strip.  The Gaza Strip is populated with about 2.1 million people. It would be very difficult to find and capture most of them in Gaza, unless they are shooting back or armed.

Some of these terrorists will try to fight back, and will be killed by IDF, when IDF makes their incursion into Gaza. Many/Most may even temporarily escape into Egypt, until Israeli forces leave (weeks/months from now). They will then return, to start and plan for more trouble-making towards Israel.

[WalterWhite]

These is simply no reality in which Hamas retains control of Gaza. Israel now has 300K soldiers, but Hamas only has 30K. Hamas is now outnumbered 10:1; Israel also has American support, but Hamas does not appear to have any international support. (The WSJ article about Iran funding Hamas seems to have been debunked.)

[Ferguson97]

These is simply no reality in which Hamas retains control of Gaza. Israel now has 300K soldiers, but Hamas only has 30K. Hamas is now outnumbered 10:1; Israel also has American support, but Hamas does not appear to have any international support. (The WSJ article about Iran funding Hamas seems to have been debunked.)

It is well-known that Iran funds Hamas. I assume you mean that there's no proof that they funded this specific operation?

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/rishibagree/status/1711782073885987322?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogl...

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/rishibagree/status/1711782073885987322?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogl...

Modi is still going to lose next year no matter how much anti-Muslim hate he tries to stir up, but that's for another thread.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/rishibagree/status/1711782073885987322?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogl...

Modi is still going to lose next year no matter how much anti-Muslim hate he tries to stir up, but that's for another thread.

lol but here:

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=534465.msg9240745#new

[Vosem]

These is simply no reality in which Hamas retains control of Gaza. Israel now has 300K soldiers, but Hamas only has 30K. Hamas is now outnumbered 10:1; Israel also has American support, but Hamas does not appear to have any international support. (The WSJ article about Iran funding Hamas seems to have been debunked.)

It is well-known that Iran funds Hamas. I assume you mean that there's no proof that they funded this specific operation?

Money is fungible; any organization that has funded Hamas funded this operation.

(That said, it appears that the reports that the Iranian government was involved in organizing this attack were of dubious veracity.)

[Frodo]

Since Iran sends weaponry to Hamas via underground tunnels from the Sinai to southern Gaza, perhaps it would make more sense for the IDF to concentrate their forces there (the southern Gaza border, that is) instead of Gaza City, and for Israel to formally annex the area, extending the vast underground Iron Wall network they already have elsewhere, and cut off the weapons pipeline once and for all.  Starve the beast before moving in for the kill, so to speak.  Hopefully that is already their plan.     

[emailking]

Biden said he told Netanyahu to operate by the rules of war. In the speech to Jewish community leaders just now.

What is wrong with telling Netanyahu not to commit war crimes?

I don't know. They've talked a lot. He didn't say anything about that in the speech.

[The Mikado]

Netanyahu is the Scorpion and Gantz is the frog. Cannot believe he’d trust him under any circumstances.

“I saved you,” cried that woman

“And you've bit me even, why?

You know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die”

“Oh shut up, silly woman,” said the reptile with a grin

“You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in

-Donald Trump


(Seriously, though, Gantz knows perfectly well how toxic Bibi is. If this operation goes well after the earlier failure he stands poised to gain massively)

[Meclazine for Israel]

Money is fungible; any organization that has funded Hamas funded this operation.

Agreed. I think in the back of everyone's mind, this is something that, by manner of logical deduction, is in fact occurring.

I read online that Hamas has an annual military budget of $2.3Bn. Where are they getting this money from?

Asking Palestinian donors if their money is going to Hamas.

[PSOL]

The West Bank has been on lockdown since this morning apparently as Israel tries to ensure that an open intifada doesn’t spread there.

Yep, Biden said in his speech that he saw pictures of terrorists beheading children.

There's no coming back from that. I don't know how Israel lets Hamas survive this war.

Because Israel can never actually eliminate Hamas, it’s a terrorist organization. What they’re about to do will only strengthen them. There is no good answer.

Sure they can. What happened to the PFLP?

They still exist and played a role in the offensive from Gaza.

Yep, Biden said in his speech that he saw pictures of terrorists beheading children.

There's no coming back from that. I don't know how Israel lets Hamas survive this war.

Because Israel can never actually eliminate Hamas, it’s a terrorist organization. What they’re about to do will only strengthen them. There is no good answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam

Using a rebel force which ran a state for decades without international recognition and which won many conventional battles against both Sri Lanka and India isn’t helping your point. Plus the Tamil people are still the greatest thorns to the side of the current government and their parties generally dominate the north.

Realistically, Hamas could always go underground like a lot of the other factions in the events of an Israeli occupation, and then Israel will have to deal with containing through an expensive hands on approach that they already burn through in the West Bank. It’s going to be painful no matter what.

[The Mikado]

Snowstalker studying theory before he makes his 2 hour long Youtube video on how to apply Karl Marx's On the Jewish Question to modern geopolitics with references to contemporary pop culture.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Snowstalker studying theory before he makes his 2 hour long Youtube video on how to apply Karl Marx's On the Jewish Question to modern geopolitics with references to contemporary pop culture.

You can say a lot about me, but I didn't start the argument over whether having sex with twinks makes you gay.

[Vosem]

Modi is still going to lose next year no matter how much anti-Muslim hate he tries to stir up, but that's for another thread.

Maybe not the thread for it, but I'm curious as to why you would say this, since my cursory check of Wikipedia shows Indian polling* thinks Modi's alliance is on track for a comfortable victory (which wasn't what it showed prior to 2019, when it seemed unclear whether they could take a second majority), and Modi's personal popularity, in any metric, remains ridiculous. That said I don't follow day-to-day Indian politics that closely and my impression is that the BJP, or particularly its state-level branches, are far less popular than Modi the man.

*Of questionable value.

[Meclazine for Israel]

PBS News Hour

Israel and Palestinian leaders, Yohanan Plesner of the Israel Democracy Institute and Dr. Mustafa Barghouti of the Palestinian National Initiative discuss the latest escalation of violence in the Middle East.

Hamas Attack on Israel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xDy-ktssC0

Yohanan said something interesting. He noted the attack killing over 1,200 Jewish people in their own land on Saturday morning was planned to be executed on a much larger scale for a much longer period of time.

__________________________

CBC News

Who Wins In A Ground War?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlFLZ2DwBCs

Andrew Chang looks at the issues facing Israel once they enter Gaza.

[All Along The Watchtower]

We are at the point where Palestine has been able to hold onto Israeli territory for more than half a week, with no end in sight that Palestinian offensives are going to end this week and that most soldiers have embedded and fortified their position in southern Israel. What paralysis is this that the Israeli army refuses to quickly move to secure its own cities.

The offensive into Israel was launched by Hamas -an armed militia based in Gaza- not by Palestine. Neither Palestine as an entity ruled by the "Authority" nor Palestine as a people, only Hamas.

Agreed, and to the extent there is any state involvement it’d be from Tehran and Doha, with the support of the former’s state allies in Damascus and “deep state” allies in Beirut and to a lesser extent, Baghdad and Sana’a.

Point being, the de facto government of Gaza is completely dependent on foreign actors with ulterior motives—actors who have have demonstrated little if any interest in there being a Palestinian state, as noted by their undermining of the PA by supporting the Islamist gang ruling the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip. And they clearly don’t believe it’s in their interest for Israelis and Palestinians to live side by side in peace and as equals. I suppose that kind of thing is to be expected from terrorist groups and the states who harbor and sponsor them.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1712260928635322502?s=20

[NOVA Green]

This thread is a total trainwreck and really difficult to follow because of all the spam, side arguments, and fake news. Could we please keep it a bit more in order?

Some questions:

• What is the status of Israel's ground operations? Is all Israeli territory freed now from the militants, or are there areas where Hamas still holds, or just areas where Hamas group are still roaming in Israel?
• Has Israel launched any sort of ground operation into Gaza yet? Obviously not a full-scale invasion, but like any probing or any border areas they've crossed?
• What is the situation with the Lebanon border?
• What is going on along the West Bank border? Are Israeli settlers and/or troops evacuating or being redirected? Have there been any skirmishes there, or are things very quiet on that side?

Many thanks in advance for any answers.

1. As of yesterday Israel announced that it had secured the border with Gaza. I don't think there are any areas Hamas can be said to control, though there may be some isolated mop-up operations.
2. No; IDF is massing troops for a planned ground offensive but hasn't crossed the border on land yet.
3. There has been some action on the borders with Lebanon and Syria, mortars and rockets answered with artillery; this morning, for example, Hezbollah fired an anti-tank missile at a military post on the border and Israel responded with a strike in Lebanon. These sort of small-scale exchanges have been occurring pretty regularly. But the large-scale operation this morning was a false alarm.
4. Seems funny at this point to speak of a "West Bank border." Settlers are not evacuating, quite the opposite; yesterday they killed three Palestinians in the village of Qusra, and Ben-Gvir plans to give them all AR-15s so they can "secure" things themselves.

Good summary Donerail, for OP's original questions.

#4: Should be noted that although there has not yet been a massive explosion of violence by armed Palestinians militants originating from the West Bank, there has been a dramatic escalation of the Civil Resistance, including massive riots and clashes with IDF using live rounds.

Still tensions are obviously rising massively in the West Bank, and as Israel relocates Military Assets to the Northern and Southern Fronts, could potentially in theory spill over in the event that Israeli Intel was as negligent as it was in Gaza a Week back.

Doubtful at this point that West Bank Palestinian political-military formations would be able to somehow overcome IDF positions, except perhaps in "Hot Zones" around places like Jenin, but even then, at minimum you would likely face heavy casualties in the process.

Obviously we get to a rerun from decades back, if Fatah forces start opening fire at Israeli positions, then we have an entirely different scene on our hands.

[NOVA Green]

Sounds like some signaling regarding Israeli Military potential movements using conventional combined arms strategy.

"He made the remarks in a daily update distributed by the IDF Spokesperson to the foreign media. Conricus added that since Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, it has built "a network of tunnels under Gaza City, which is the center, all the way to Khan Yunis and Rafah."

"We are trying to reach the lower layer that Hamas has built for itself," he said. "It is not intended for the entry of civilians, it is not bunkers for Gazan citizens for when Israel attacks, it is for the use of Hamas and other terrorists so that they can continue to fire missiles and send terrorists."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/

[NOVA Green]

US Diplomacy, looking like a Gazan Civilian refugee corridor being established.

"Biden discusses Hamas attacks with UAE President, stressing humanitarian assistance importance
U.S. President Joe Biden and UAE President Mohamed bin Zayed on Wednesday discussed the Hamas attacks on Israel, with the U.S. readout stressing "the importance of ensuring humanitarian assistance reaches those in need."

The U.S. said earlier Wednesday it was in active discussions with Israel and Egypt about creating safe passage for Palestinian civilians wishing to flee the fighting in Gaza."


https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/