Israel-Gaza war

[kwabbit]

If I took a shot everytime disagreement emerged between pppolitics and a Zionist in this thread, I'd already have been a member of Alcohols Anonymous.

This has nothing to do with Zionism and everything to do with pppress being a fanatical anti-Semite

Anti-semitism lost its meaning because Zionists started calling any criticism of Israel "anti-semitism".

"Zionist" lost meaning when it just started replacing Jew in anti-semitic tropes.

[Lief 🗽]

It’s still shocking to me that so many “progressives” like pppolitics watched 1000+ innocent Israelis get raped, tortured, murdered, and kidnapped on 10/7 and responded by becoming literal neo-Nazis. Now he is accosting Jews and demanding that they make loyalty oaths. Sick in the head.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Holy s--t guys you know you don't have to quote the entire damn conversation in every reply.

This thread continues to be utterly unreadable and laughably off-topic.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

It’s still shocking to me that so many “progressives” like pppolitics watched 1000+ innocent Israelis get raped, tortured, murdered, and kidnapped on 10/7 and responded by becoming literal neo-Nazis. Now he is accosting Jews and demanding that they make loyalty oaths. Sick in the head.

Yep. This is what they always were, only a few people could see it or wanted to believe it, and we're all very lucky that they never got the power they were seeking. And fully mask off, they never will.

[pppolitics]

It’s still shocking to me that so many “progressives” like pppolitics watched 1000+ innocent Israelis get raped, tortured, murdered, and kidnapped on 10/7 and responded by becoming literal neo-Nazis. Now he is accosting Jews and demanding that they make loyalty oaths. Sick in the head.

I saw bodies upon bodies of Palestinians and babies being dug out of the rubble in Gaza.

The genocide that Israel is committing sickens me.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Israel has got a problem with how it treats Arab journalists. Its atrocious record on that front is evident in the war in Gaza.

[Devils30]

Israel has got a problem with how it treats Arab journalists. Its atrocious record on that front is evident in the war in Gaza.

Amazingly everyone with a Twitter account becomes a journalist. And I don't know if I will say another thing on this thread. Considering it just turns into name calling with pppolitics, I am probably best heading back to redistricting and election trends instead of this crap.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Totally shocked by the tenor of discussion over the past few pages, given the thread subj…

ahahaha no, of course I’m not.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Israel has got a problem with how it treats Arab journalists. Its atrocious record on that front is evident in the war in Gaza.

Amazingly everyone with a Twitter account becomes a journalist. And I don't know if I will say another thing on this thread. Considering it just turns into name calling with pppolitics, I am probably best heading back to redistricting and election trends instead of this crap.

Us Arabs have long known that Israeli military personnel don't treat Arab journalists well (at least generally, and in the very least in war zones). In fact they even shot at and killed one rather brazenly two years ago. But no one can force you to open your ears or eyes to the truth, it's alright.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Israel has got a problem with how it treats Arab journalists. Its atrocious record on that front is evident in the war in Gaza.

Israel have killed another two journalists who were in the same car as a drone-operating Hamas terrorist when they were targeted.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-al-jazeera-journalists-were-killed-in-car-with-drone-operating-terror-operative/

In addition to the CNN journalist getting a kiss from the Hamas leader in my signature, it is pretty clear Hamas own these journalists. They own the narrative, the storyline, the photos, the locations and NY Times and ABC Australia absorb it hook, line and sinker.

In other words, as the Hamas machine is dismantled, the reality of this terror-sponsored journalism is becoming evident.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Israel has got a problem with how it treats Arab journalists. Its atrocious record on that front is evident in the war in Gaza.

Israel have killed another two journalists who were in the same car as a drone-operating Hamas terrorist when they were targeted.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-al-jazeera-journalists-were-killed-in-car-with-drone-operating-terror-operative/

In addition to the CNN journalist getting a kiss from the Hamas leader in my signature, it is pretty clear Hamas own these journalists. They own the narrative, the storyline, the photos, the locations and NY Times and ABC Australia absorb it hook, line and sinker.

In other words, as the Hamas machine is dismantled, the reality of this terror-sponsored journalism is becoming evident.

To be entirely clear, Israel is not necessarily very special in how it acts towards journalists. That's not a judgement I feel informed enough to make given the sheer breadth of knowledge needed to have enough of a dataset to analyze. Journalism is not an occupation that deserves as much respect as people within it think. Regardless, it is still among the most important ones in a conflict like this because if a military wants to do something and they know it would not be good for them if it became common knowledge, then no independent journalists makes it far easier to cover it up. Hamas doesn't seem to hide its awful behavior too much, so this factor doesn't seem to be particularly relevant regarding Hamas, but since Israel is far more interested in an information blackout, this means that journalists operating in Gaza are absolutely critical to letting the world know what's happening there.

Israel doesn't want journalists to uncover and/or publicize what's happening in Gaza (and it readily seeks to scare them away with unpredictable violence among other things). It wants to keep things in the dark except on its own terms. Of course this has not stopped PR fiascos (such as the whole calendar thing, and them wearing golden stars in the United Nations and demanding the UN Sec Gen's resignation). Broadly I am not particularly inclined to take either side's propaganda completely uncritically, but given everything else, and the fact that targetting journalists is hardly a novel thing for them, the IDF's actions on this front are especially suspicious. Especially as 70% of Gaza has been demolished over three months and the death toll could top 100,000. The ugly reality of life here under Israeli shelling is both a threat to Israeli security in the long term, and the single best recruiting tool Hamas has.

Israeli intelligence agencies themselves have called the current approach suboptimal (though their take would still differ  significantly from mine I think, overall). Israel is making things harder for itself when it could be a more responsible actor. My sense has been for a long time that its "dog eats dog" style of relations with its neighbors, is creating unnecessary division, harming Israeli interests, as well the geopolitical interests of the United States.

[GMantis]

To highlight the barbaric scale of destruction in Gaza, nearly 70% of all homes there are either destroyed or damaged. Yes, 70%.

Let's be clear about what is happening.

Hamas chose to invade Israel for the distinct purpose of........the kidnap, murder, rape, beheading and burning of families including women and children.

Choose your action. Choose your consequences.

Do you just ever like...acknowledge the 50+ years of occupation, colonization, and economic repression of Palestine or do you just not care?

This is the most disgusting and open lie pushed by the pro-Palestine faction: that Palestine has no choice but to respond to "the occupation" with terror and radical Islam. In reality, the occupation exists because Palestine keeps choosing terror. In reality, peoples all over the world have dealt with land losses and population transfers, and have not responded by electing terrorists, teaching their children to be martyrs, and starting suicidal wars over and over again. Palestinian culture is deeply sick, and is egged on by the rest of the world and the UN, who affirm the lie that "they have no choice".

In reality, no Israeli government has ever committed to ending the occupation under any condition. There was no significant violence in the Palestinian territories between 1967 and 1987 and yet the Israeli government refused to even consider giving the Palestinians sovereignty.

There was no declaration of Palestinian independence until 1988, so sovereignty was not what was being asked for; instead there was a negative anti-Zionist demand.

The PLO did in fact proclaim as its goal an independent Palestinian state. Of course they demanded all of historical Palestine, but it's not as if Israel showed any willingness to compromise either. All the Israeli governments in this period explicitly denied the rights of the Palestinians to have their own state. See for example, Golda Meir with her insistence that there were no Palestinians or the Likud party which outright declared that only Israeli sovereignty would exist between the river and the sea.

After the First Intifada forced Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians the Rabin government agreed to give them some self-rule, however the Palestinian state which they envisioned would not actually control its own borders or airspace, meaning that the occupation would continue under another name. Now under Netanyahu the Israeli government has openly stated that its objective is to permanently prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. So to claim that the occupation is there because of the terror is simply disingenuous - there will be an occupation regardless of what the Palestinians do.

The Israeli demand has always been for a Palestinian nationalism which is not anti-Zionist; that is, one which does not have as a goal changing Israel's immigration policy. This is a perfectly reasonable demand -- democratic and authoritarian countries routinely enact immigration policies their neighbors dislike, and for that matter democratic and authoritarian countries routinely prevent 'expellees' from returning -- but one that Palestinian nationalists have been unable to meet, because, one suspects, the terminal goal is not Palestine but the nonexistence of Israel. The occupation must obviously continue until a Palestinian nationalism emerges which is not anti-Zionist; a prerequisite for this is probably the destruction of the Palestinian movement abroad, which does things like funding anti-Zionist education or pressuring governments to hold anti-Zionist stances. Hamas would not rule Gaza if not for the UNRWA.

Not going to go into the whole question of the right of return (though of course Israel's position isn't nearly as reasonable as you make it out to be, starting with labeling the descendants of the people expelled by Israel "immigrants") since it doesn't really disprove my argument: even if the Palestinians accepted this condition, Israel has insisted that the Palestine  they would allow to exist is one whose borders were controlled by Israel, ie for a Palestinian state controlled de-facto by Israel. The only Israeli leader who came even close to abandoning this demand was Ehud Barak after the failure of Camp David and at a time when his government was fallen, so he arguably had no mandate to reach an agreement.

And the Palestinians are hardly unique in not giving up their struggle for self-determination. How many people under colonial rule - because this is what Israel's rule in Palestine amounts to in practice - have given up the struggle for independence? So while one can certainly deplore Palestinian terrorism, it's preposterous to claim the Palestinians are somehow sick for not giving up their desire for self-determination.

I mean, 'colonial rule' has a very specific meaning and Palestine does not meet it. In terms of 'how many people have given up on a struggle for independence'...objectively lots? This happened in Khalistan and Biafra and Katanga and Ambazonia. But this is besides the point because most of the Israeli political system is on board with a Palestinian state in theory, so long as it is not anti-Zionist.

In fact Palestine meets the definition perfectly. It's a territory controlled by Israel, but ruled separately and under different laws from Israel's main territory. The presence of the autonomous Palestinian territory doesn't change this fact - after all, India had the principle states, but no one denies that India was a colony. Similarly the fact that it's adjacent to Israeli territory is not relevant either - see for example Central Asia, definitely considered a colony of Tsarist Russia. 

As for your examples, none of these were colonies - they tried to break or did break away from the states in which they were incorporated - and their independence efforts ended with their re-incorporation in the country of which they were part (with methods, particularly in Biafra, that I imagine even the US wouldn't swallow if Israel tried to carry out). The major difference with the Palestinians is that Israel doesn't want to incorporate them, yet proposes to continue ruling them as a de-facto colony. And the number of colonized people who've voluntarily remained under the ruler of the colonial ruler is short indeed - not to mention that their conditions are incomparably better than the ones under which the Palestinians are ruled. For example, the inhabitants of all current dependent territories have the free right to move to the ruling country -  something Israel would never allow.

[CumbrianLefty]

If I took a shot everytime disagreement emerged between pppolitics and a Zionist in this thread, I'd already have been a member of Alcohols Anonymous.

This has nothing to do with Zionism and everything to do with pppress being a fanatical anti-Semite

Anti-semitism lost its meaning because Zionists started calling any criticism of Israel "anti-semitism".

"Zionist" lost meaning when it just started replacing Jew in anti-semitic tropes.

Both extremes are as bad as each other as far as this is concerned, well spotted.

[afleitch]

Thread warning.

Enough with the personal attacks. Absolutely uncalled for and a waste of everyone's time trying to read this thread and keep up with events.

This really shouldn't be an 'opinion' thread or a thread to police genuine political discussion.

[GeneralMacArthur]

There's a video out today of four Hamas kidnapping/rape victims -- all girls 18-19 years old -- tied up at a Hamas compound with blood all over their mutilated faces and a thousand-mile stare in their eyes.

The video is from early in their captivity.  It was sent by Hamas to the parents of the girls as a taunt: "this is what we are doing to your daughters -- hope this video makes you suffer more, Jew"

God only knows the condition of these girls several months later, if they're even still alive.

It's absolutely disgusting and appalling.  It's horrifying to look at it.  If you are a decent person, it makes you burn with anger.  If you are some sort of sick, twisted, sadistic freak, you write some post excusing it or saying they deserved it.  Two types of people.



Just as a reminder, this is what Israel is fighting against, and the entire reason this war started in the first place.

Israel's terms for a cease fire begin and end with Hamas returning the Jewish girls they kidnapped and want to keep as sex slaves.  Hamas doesn't want to do this.  We know this because Joe Biden helped negotiate a cease fire last month and it ended because Hamas refused to give back any more hostages.  Specifically they kept a lot of the young women hostage, presumably because they enjoy raping them.

Hamas could end this war in five minutes if they want to.  But they don't want to.  For one thing, they'd rather let their little country continue to get pulverized than give up their kidnapped sex slaves.  For another, they have an apocalyptic worldview where they believe it's their destiny to die in battle with the Jews and achieve martyrdom.  There are also a few idiots who think they can actually beat Israel on the battlefield.

But the main reason they don't want to end the war is that as long as they keep using civilians as human shields, forcing Israel to kill those civilians to continue fighting the war, public support for Israel will continue to decline.  Every dead civilian is a huge success in Hamas's ledger, which is why their entire strategy is based on maximizing the amount of Palestinian civilians who die, and then propagandizing that fact to the fullest extent.

In other words, they are counting on you, dear reader, to forget everything I wrote above, and simply turn your brain off when you see some dead civilian with the label "Israel did this."



Hamas is loathsome, rotten, evil to its core, and every single one of them deserves death.

Yet there are some people who have their heads so screwed up by propaganda on social media that they can look at that video -- which I will not post here -- of Hamas's brutalized, tortured rape victims, and they'll still come away thinking they're supporting the good guys.

It's terrible that this war must continue, since Hamas refuses to surrender or even release the hostages.  But at least more of them are killed every day, which is something to celebrate for all the decent people in the world (a group that we now know is much smaller than previously assumed).

[GeneralMacArthur]

I wonder what those four girls would think if they knew that 7,000 miles away, on the opposite side of the planet, American progressives in Seattle barricaded the highway for an entire day to demand that Israel give up its attempts to rescue them and abandon them to their horrifying fate?

Do you think the sick, twisted, evil monsters in Hamas show them videos of the pro-Hamas protests in the West to taunt them in between rape sessions?

[Person Man]

There's a video out today of four Hamas kidnapping/rape victims -- all girls 18-19 years old -- tied up at a Hamas compound with blood all over their mutilated faces and a thousand-mile stare in their eyes.

The video is from early in their captivity.  It was sent by Hamas to the parents of the girls as a taunt: "this is what we are doing to your daughters -- hope this video makes you suffer more, Jew"

God only knows the condition of these girls several months later, if they're even still alive.

It's absolutely disgusting and appalling.  It's horrifying to look at it.  If you are a decent person, it makes you burn with anger.  If you are some sort of sick, twisted, sadistic freak, you write some post excusing it or saying they deserved it.  Two types of people.



Just as a reminder, this is what Israel is fighting against, and the entire reason this war started in the first place.

Israel's terms for a cease fire begin and end with Hamas returning the Jewish girls they kidnapped and want to keep as sex slaves.  Hamas doesn't want to do this.  We know this because Joe Biden helped negotiate a cease fire last month and it ended because Hamas refused to give back any more hostages.  Specifically they kept a lot of the young women hostage, presumably because they enjoy raping them.

Hamas could end this war in five minutes if they want to.  But they don't want to.  For one thing, they'd rather let their little country continue to get pulverized than give up their kidnapped sex slaves.  For another, they have an apocalyptic worldview where they believe it's their destiny to die in battle with the Jews and achieve martyrdom.  There are also a few idiots who think they can actually beat Israel on the battlefield.

But the main reason they don't want to end the war is that as long as they keep using civilians as human shields, forcing Israel to kill those civilians to continue fighting the war, public support for Israel will continue to decline.  Every dead civilian is a huge success in Hamas's ledger, which is why their entire strategy is based on maximizing the amount of Palestinian civilians who die, and then propagandizing that fact to the fullest extent.

In other words, they are counting on you, dear reader, to forget everything I wrote above, and simply turn your brain off when you see some dead civilian with the label "Israel did this."



Hamas is loathsome, rotten, evil to its core, and every single one of them deserves death.

Yet there are some people who have their heads so screwed up by propaganda on social media that they can look at that video -- which I will not post here -- of Hamas's brutalized, tortured rape victims, and they'll still come away thinking they're supporting the good guys.

It's terrible that this war must continue, since Hamas refuses to surrender or even release the hostages.  But at least more of them are killed every day, which is something to celebrate for all the decent people in the world (a group that we now know is much smaller than previously assumed).

I mean, if you don't go to hell for that, what do you go to hell for?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Both sides show willingness to engage in Imperial Japanese Army style tactics. Stuff like this is why enduring peace is impossible as things are constituted.
Liberal Zionists who support strongly entrenched equality for people in both communities in one state, and a redefinition of Israel to be a truly shared entity, is probably the best solution, if it can be achieved. Until then we're probably stuck with abuses and mediocrity and criminal behavior that gets excused or implicitly or explicitly ignored because of blinders.

I already didn't have a huge amount of optimism. October 7th, and the actions of the IDF since, just exposes how broken community relations are. I've grown only more dissatisfied and am easily happier changing the paradigm than working with the current status quo guaranteed to generate sh*t sandwiches 99 times out of a hundred.

I will note though, only one side is capable of what I would describe as genocide at this point, not because of lack of desire, but because of relative strength. And that side is the Israelis. They can have their aid, and I've explained why I strongly disagree with cutting it, but that doesn't mean that their tactics aren't highly dubious at best and downright criminal at worst either. In fact, the crimes Hamas did to Israelis on October 7th looks trivial compared to the long suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank over the past two decades. The IDF attacking Hamas for doing things is sort of like a pot calling the kettle black.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I won't be responding anymore to the vile blood libels and dehumanization posted in this thread by that one poster. Instead, I'll simply be reporting every single one of that poster's offensive posts.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Oh no! Four Israeli girls are tied up!

Meanwhile, Israel killed thousands of Palestinian girls.

You would be well advised to show more unhappiness with Hamas behavior. A lot of what you say about how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians is accurate, but awful behavior is hardly limited to one side.
That being said, if Americans had to live in the conditions the Palestinians did, you can bet we'd look at it completely differently. This is a cycle of violence. Lots of people are sick of it, but it endures because the pieces of the puzzle remain in place.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Both sides

the crimes Hamas did to Israelis on October 7th looks trivial compared to the long suffering of Palestinians

The IDF attacking Hamas for doing things is sort of like a pot calling the kettle black

Oh no!  Meanwhile, Israel

Cool can you show me the video Israeli soldiers took of the four Arab girls they kidnapped, tortured and raped, which they then proudly sent to the parents of those girls as a "look what we're doing to your daughters and you can't do a thing about it" taunt?

Both-sides-ism is just a mental smoke-and-mirrors technique to try and avoid acknowledging the evil we are witnessing here.



One side (the side you supposedly nominally oppose) is pure evil.
The other side (the side you devote an enormous amount of energy to opposing and undermining) is trying to put an end to that evil.

The evil side is committing the war crime of using human shields, and committing the war crime of conducting military operations from civilian population centers.

These are war crimes because they force Israel to hurt civilians if they want to make any progress at all towards rescuing these girls and ending Hamas.  This is not me saying this, this is not my definition, this is what's explicitly written in the Geneva Convention.

Hamas does this intentionally because they want Israel to hurt and kill Palestinian civilians so they can then turn around and point to those civilian deaths and say "see, Israel is the bad guys" and suckers in the West will believe them.

When you posting things like

Israel killed thousands of Palestinian girls.

as an argument against Israel, rather than an argument against Hamas,
you are rewarding Hamas for being evil.
You are rewarding Hamas for committing these war crimes.
You are rewarding Hamas for intentionally putting their own civilians in harm's way.
You, useful idiot, are making yourself a pawn in Hamas's strategy to intentionally -- and illegally -- inflict death and misery on the Palestinians they govern.

[pppolitics]

Both sides

the crimes Hamas did to Israelis on October 7th looks trivial compared to the long suffering of Palestinians

The IDF attacking Hamas for doing things is sort of like a pot calling the kettle black

Oh no!  Meanwhile, Israel

Cool can you show me the video Israeli soldiers took of the four Arab girls they kidnapped, tortured and raped, which they then proudly sent to the parents of those girls as a "look what we're doing to your daughters and you can't do a thing about it" taunt?

Both-sides-ism is just a mental smoke-and-mirrors technique to try and avoid acknowledging the evil we are witnessing here.



One side (the side you supposedly nominally oppose) is pure evil.
The other side (the side you devote an enormous amount of energy to opposing and undermining) is trying to put an end to that evil.

The evil side is committing the war crime of using human shields, and committing the war crime of conducting military operations from civilian population centers.

These are war crimes because they force Israel to hurt civilians if they want to make any progress at all towards rescuing these girls and ending Hamas.

Hamas does this intentionally because they want Israel to hurt and kill Palestinian civilians so they can then turn around and point to those civilian deaths and say "see, Israel is the bad guys" and suckers in the West will believe them.

When you posting things like

Israel killed thousands of Palestinian girls.

as an argument against Israel, rather than an argument against Hamas,
you are rewarding Hamas for being evil.
You are rewarding Hamas for committing these war crimes.
You are rewarding Hamas for intentionally putting their own civilians in harm's way.
You, useful idiot, are making yourself a pawn in Hamas's strategy to intentionally -- and illegally -- inflict death and misery on the Palestinians they govern.

Nobody here likes Hamas, but what Israel is doing is 19 times worse than what Hamas did.

Rarely (if ever) have you talked about tens of thousands of Palestinians killed by Israel this year alone.

[Pres Mike]

Here is my plans for a final peace settlement (I am a Palestinian American)

1. Israel withdraws from 97% of West Bank (Ehud Olmert's 2008 Annapolis plan)

2. Highway connects West Bank and Gaza Strip

3. Jerusalem remains the undivided and fully controlled by Israel

4. Palestine government buildings operate in East Jerusalem

5. Arab residents in East Jerusalem allowed both Israeli and Palestinian citizenship

6. Palestine becomes the custodian of Al Aqsa Mosque (currently Jordanian government)

7. "Right of Return" is dropped except for the original survivors of the 1947 Nakba

8. A limited number of Palestinian refugees globally will be allowed to settle in West Bank. The rest are given citizenship of their home nations.

9. Hamas is banned as a political party. Any party that promotes violence is banned, similar to Israeli laws

10. Palestine will control its water and power

11. Israeli will be allowed to control airspace over Palestine. In exchange, the airport in Gaza City is reopened and a new airport built in West Bank

12. Israel will be allowed a limited military presence on Jordan border

Thoughts?

[Horus]

Oh no! Four Israeli girls are tied up!

Meanwhile, Israel killed thousands of Palestinian girls.

You would be well advised to show more unhappiness with Hamas behavior. A lot of what you say about how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians is accurate, but awful behavior is hardly limited to one side.
That being said, if Americans had to live in the conditions the Palestinians did, you can bet we'd look at it completely differently. This is a cycle of violence. Lots of people are sick of it, but it endures because the pieces of the puzzle remain in place.

You've really been on a roll in this thread Tim. Thank you for being one of the few genuinely moderate voices.

You listen to every view, and try and find solutions that no one loves but everyone can tolerate.

Here is my plans for a final peace settlement (I am a Palestinian American)

I could live with this.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Both sides

Oh no!  Meanwhile, Israel

Cool can you show me the video Israeli soldiers took of the four Arab girls they kidnapped, tortured and raped, which they then proudly sent to the parents of those girls as a "look what we're doing to your daughters and you can't do a thing about it" taunt?

Israel is of course not going to be as readily willing to advertise its crimes against humanity usually (though soldiers are freely posting on social media what amounts to destroying sites of great importance to Palestinians), but degrading people like this isn't significantly better just because it isn't filmed.
From Amnesty International:
https://www.amnesty.org/ar/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/
(Google Translate AR>EN)
Lets call these people for who they are. Hostages. And many many more of them suffer every day in Israeli prisons than Hamas took. We hear all about the people taken captive on October 7th. What about Palestinians stuck in Israeli prisons who have done nothing wrong? Are Palestinians worthy of human rights? Or are they to be mere chattel for an empire run by people who wish the Holy Land only belongs to one faith?