Israel-Gaza war

[GeneralMacArthur]

Israel is indiscriminately bombing the Palestinians.

No they are not, and this is an absurd thing to believe to be true if you think about it for even five seconds.

I know Biden used that term a month ago but the State Department walked it back a couple hours later.

Israel is also restricting aid (food, water, medicine) from reaching Gaza.

All the aid going into Gaza is being seized immediately upon arrival by Hamas and used to fuel the war effort.  Most of it isn't even reaching civilians.  Btw, this is another clear and blatant war crime that you don't care about.

Want the Gazans to get supplies?  Kill Hamas.  This isn't a new development either.  Do we need to repost the videos of Hamas terrorists proudly bragging to reporters about their technique of breaking up water pipes to use segments for rockets?  Another thing you couldn't care less about.

[pppolitics]

Israel is indiscriminately bombing the Palestinians.

No they are not, and this is an absurd thing to believe to be true if you think about it for even five seconds.

I know Biden used that term a month ago but the State Department walked it back a couple hours later.

Of course, it did.

The US is Israel's biggest enabler.

All the aid going into Gaza is being seized immediately upon arrival by Hamas and used to fuel the war effort.  Most of it isn't even reaching civilians.  Btw, this is another clear and blatant war crime that you don't care about.

Want the Gazans to get supplies?  Kill Hamas.  This isn't a new development either.  Do we need to repost the videos of Hamas terrorists proudly bragging to reporters about their technique of breaking up water pipes to use segments for rockets?  Another thing you couldn't care less about.

You are just blatantly repeating Israel's talking point.

Is Hamas going to turn broccoli into rockets?

[afleitch]

Israel is indiscriminately bombing the Palestinians.

No they are not, and this is an absurd thing to believe to be true if you think about it for even five seconds.

This is satellite footage from late October, early in the campaign.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes

[GeneralMacArthur]

All the aid going into Gaza is being seized immediately upon arrival by Hamas and used to fuel the war effort.  Most of it isn't even reaching civilians.  Btw, this is another clear and blatant war crime that you don't care about.

Want the Gazans to get supplies?  Kill Hamas.  This isn't a new development either.  Do we need to repost the videos of Hamas terrorists proudly bragging to reporters about their technique of breaking up water pipes to use segments for rockets?  Another thing you couldn't care less about.

You are just blatantly repeating Israel's talking point.

Is Hamas going to turn broccoli into rockets?

Hamas steals all manner of humanitarian supplies, including those that can not directly be used to make weapons, because
A) They want to make sure they themselves are fully provisioned and want for nothing
B) They can sell surplus supplies for a profit
C) Having the power to distribute or withhold supplies to civilians gives them a means of control

c'mon man, this isn't a new tactic.  For one thing it's been done plenty of times before -- for instance, this is how Hamas's predecessors in Somalia made out like bandits with UN aid to the devastated failed state, which led the United States to launch Operation Restore Hope to try and prevent aid from falling into Islamist militia hands, and later the UN sent thousands of troops to assist as well.  The situation in Gaza is much more dire than that in Somalia, but I don't see anyone from the United States, much less the United Nations, advocating for a similar operation.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

1. The difference here is that Native Americans are full citizens of the United States. They were granted the right to vote in 1870 (although several states made it hard until the Civil Rights Bill)

You mean 1924.

They were not covered by the 15th Amendment because most were not citizens.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Israel is indiscriminately bombing the Palestinians.

No they are not, and this is an absurd thing to believe to be true if you think about it for even five seconds.

This is satellite footage from late October, early in the campaign.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes

Unless you can demonstrate to me that there were no legitimate Hamas targets in the places being bombed, I will not agree with you that this is "indiscriminate."  Words have meaning.  Israel is choosing to drop bombs on targets where they believe they will weaken or kill Hamas.  That is, they are discriminative in their bombing.  I have seen zero evidence of Israel consistently and intentionally destroying targets that they have no reason to believe Hamas is using.

But were there civilian targets alongside those Hamas targets?  Undoubtedly, since that has been Hamas's strategy from the beginning.  And if you are upset that those civilians lost their lives and their homes, then you should be absolutely seething with rage at Hamas for trying to use those civilians as human shields and their homes as an illegal-under-international-law base of military operations.  Because if Hamas hadn't done that, guess what?  Israel wouldn't have had to drop those bombs to defeat Hamas.

[afleitch]

Israel is indiscriminately bombing the Palestinians.

No they are not, and this is an absurd thing to believe to be true if you think about it for even five seconds.

This is satellite footage from late October, early in the campaign.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes

Unless you can demonstrate to me that there were no legitimate Hamas targets in the places being bombed, I will not agree with you that this is "indiscriminate."  Words have meaning.  Israel is choosing to drop bombs on targets where they believe they will weaken or kill Hamas.  That is, they are discriminative in their bombing.  I have seen zero evidence of Israel consistently and intentionally destroying targets that they have no reason to believe Hamas is using.

But were there civilian targets alongside those Hamas targets?  Undoubtedly, since that has been Hamas's strategy from the beginning.  And if you are upset that those civilians lost their lives and their homes, then you should be absolutely seething with rage at Hamas for trying to use those civilians as human shields and their homes as an illegal-under-international-law base of military operations.  Because if Hamas hadn't done that, guess what?  Israel wouldn't have had to drop those bombs to defeat Hamas.

US intel

www.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html

'Dumb' bombs in heavily populated areas are indiscriminate.

As The Red Cross defines;

https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/indiscriminate-attacks

'an attack by bombardment, by any means or method which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;

an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the tangible and direct military advantage anticipated.'

[Horus]

Israel is indiscriminately bombing the Palestinians.

No they are not, and this is an absurd thing to believe to be true if you think about it for even five seconds.

This is satellite footage from late October, early in the campaign.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes

Unless you can demonstrate to me that there were no legitimate Hamas targets in the places being bombed, I will not agree with you that this is "indiscriminate."  Words have meaning.  Israel is choosing to drop bombs on targets where they believe they will weaken or kill Hamas.  That is, they are discriminative in their bombing.  I have seen zero evidence of Israel consistently and intentionally destroying targets that they have no reason to believe Hamas is using.

But were there civilian targets alongside those Hamas targets?  Undoubtedly, since that has been Hamas's strategy from the beginning.  And if you are upset that those civilians lost their lives and their homes, then you should be absolutely seething with rage at Hamas for trying to use those civilians as human shields and their homes as an illegal-under-international-law base of military operations.  Because if Hamas hadn't done that, guess what?  Israel wouldn't have had to drop those bombs to defeat Hamas.

US intel

www.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html

'Dumb' bombs in heavily populated areas are indiscriminate.

As The Red Cross defines;

https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/indiscriminate-attacks

'an attack by bombardment, by any means or method which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;

an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the tangible and direct military advantage anticipated.'

I agree with you, but most Zionists these days are anti Red Cross so this won't convince them.

Something about them being antisemitic and not visiting the hostages.

[pppolitics]

Israel is indiscriminately bombing the Palestinians.

No they are not, and this is an absurd thing to believe to be true if you think about it for even five seconds.

This is satellite footage from late October, early in the campaign.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/27/gaza-before-and-after-satellite-images-show-destruction-after-israeli-airstrikes

Unless you can demonstrate to me that there were no legitimate Hamas targets in the places being bombed, I will not agree with you that this is "indiscriminate."  Words have meaning.  Israel is choosing to drop bombs on targets where they believe they will weaken or kill Hamas.  That is, they are discriminative in their bombing.  I have seen zero evidence of Israel consistently and intentionally destroying targets that they have no reason to believe Hamas is using.

But were there civilian targets alongside those Hamas targets?  Undoubtedly, since that has been Hamas's strategy from the beginning.  And if you are upset that those civilians lost their lives and their homes, then you should be absolutely seething with rage at Hamas for trying to use those civilians as human shields and their homes as an illegal-under-international-law base of military operations.  Because if Hamas hadn't done that, guess what?  Israel wouldn't have had to drop those bombs to defeat Hamas.

If you are carpet bombing, you are likely to hit some "targets" by simple probability.

In no way does that mean that Israel isn't carpet bombing.

[patzer]

Giving East Jerusalem to Palestine is the best option, but a nonstarter for any Israeli government. Thats why so making potenial peace deals have died in the past.

If any Palestinian leader let go of East Jerusalem, he would be overthrown. Hence Abbas being very hestitant to accept the 2008 deal, despite him very much wanting to do so.

My thing is, if Palestine can operate its government in East Jerusalem, control the Al Aqsa mosque and give citizenship to Arab residents of East Jerusalem allowing family reunification, that the crux of the issue while allowing Israel to continue to have a united Jerusalem as its capitol

I really don't see a withdrawal from that much of the West Bank being politically viable in Israel any more- I think the October 7 attack will likely have been the final nail in the coffin of the Israel public being willing to concede that much.

And this is only going to become the case moreso- I really can't imagine the Israeli public accepting the Waqf's antisemitic discrimination in prayer access to the Temple Mount for much longer, so it's likely to become an extra point of contention as the Palestinian public is overwhelmingly in favour of said discrimination.

[pppolitics]

All the aid going into Gaza is being seized immediately upon arrival by Hamas and used to fuel the war effort.  Most of it isn't even reaching civilians.  Btw, this is another clear and blatant war crime that you don't care about.

Want the Gazans to get supplies?  Kill Hamas.  This isn't a new development either.  Do we need to repost the videos of Hamas terrorists proudly bragging to reporters about their technique of breaking up water pipes to use segments for rockets?  Another thing you couldn't care less about.

You are just blatantly repeating Israel's talking point.

Is Hamas going to turn broccoli into rockets?

Hamas steals all manner of humanitarian supplies, including those that can not directly be used to make weapons, because
A) They want to make sure they themselves are fully provisioned and want for nothing
B) They can sell surplus supplies for a profit
C) Having the power to distribute or withhold supplies to civilians gives them a means of control

c'mon man, this isn't a new tactic.  For one thing it's been done plenty of times before -- for instance, this is how Hamas's predecessors in Somalia made out like bandits with UN aid to the devastated failed state, which led the United States to launch Operation Restore Hope to try and prevent aid from falling into Islamist militia hands, and later the UN sent thousands of troops to assist as well.  The situation in Gaza is much more dire than that in Somalia, but I don't see anyone from the United States, much less the United Nations, advocating for a similar operation.

You can come up with all the excuses in the world.

Israel is using food (or lack of) as a weapon.

Israel wants to starve Hamas and the Palestinians along with it.

[GeneralMacArthur]

US intel

www.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html

'Dumb' bombs in heavily populated areas are indiscriminate.

As The Red Cross defines;

https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/indiscriminate-attacks

'an attack by bombardment, by any means or method which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;

an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the tangible and direct military advantage anticipated.'

First of all, the article you linked does not use the term "indiscriminate" to describe these bombs.  This is commentary that you have provided yourself to support your claim that Israel is "indiscriminately bombing Palestinians."

Here is what the article actually says.

A US official told CNN that the US believes that the Israeli military is using the dumb bombs in conjunction with a tactic called “dive bombing,” or dropping a bomb while diving steeply in a fighter jet, which the official said makes the bombs more precise because it gets it closer to its target. The official said the US believes that an unguided munition dropped via dive-bombing is similarly precise to a guided munition.

But Garlasco said the Israelis “should want to use the most precise weapon that they possibly can in such a densely populated area.” With an unguided munition, “there are so many variables to take into account that could lead to an incredibly different accuracy from one moment to the next,” Garlasco added.  The US has deliberately phased out its own use of unguided munitions over the last decade, he noted.

Following the publication of the article, IDF spokesperson Nir Dinar provided further comment.

“The IDF strikes military targets of the Hamas terrorist organization, based on high-quality intelligence and the operational necessity, while using high-quality munitions that are operated by skilled pilots and advanced systems, which continuously assess and verify that the strikes are directed at military targets. The type of munitions used in each strike is determined according to the characteristics of the target, the operational need, and the effort to mitigate harm to civilians, which the terrorist organization uses as a human shields,” Dinar said.

Critical to note here that Israel is actually using a tactic designed to maximize the accuracy of their bombs.  If they were truly indiscriminately bombing, or "carpet bombing", why would they bother?

Again, there is no actual evidence to suggest that Israel is intentionally targeting and killing Palestinian civilians.  There is only insinuation driven by a refusal to believe anything Israel says, while simultaneously granting an unlimited degree of credence to anything Hamas puts out.  This alone is indicative, to me, of a strong favorable bias towards Hamas.


Secondly, that Red Cross definition surely doesn't apply in cases where the military and civilian objects are being intentionally linked together by the enemy with intent to use the civilian objects as human shields.  Otherwise you would never be allowed to attack anyone.  And if that is in fact how they are defining it, then their definition is of an act that I don't find any problem with.

[GeneralMacArthur]

One thing I would like to add, on a more meta level:


Palestinian sympathizers love to play these word games where they try and create the loosest possible definition of a "bad thing", and then take the most extreme possible interpretation of what Israel is doing, so that they can bridge the gap and say "Israel is doing the bad thing"; and then they immediately turn around and pretend like Israel is meeting the worst, most extreme and dastardly interpretation of that term, rather than the extremely loose definition they're actually applying.

Here's the difference between me and others in this thread.  I don't play these word games.  I don't spend all my time trying to twist what my opponents are doing until they meet some possible definition of a thought-terminating buzzword.  For one thing, I don't have to, since the crimes Hamas is committing are clearly and unambiguously meeting the definitions of terms like "rape" or "terrorism" or "human shields" or "war crimes" in a way that requires no terminological gamesmanship.  But for another, I am dealing with things as they are actually happening, and the simple facts of what Israel and Hamas are doing.

If you want to play some game where you try and twist things around so you can say "Israel is doing thing X", and then play with loosening and manipulation of word definitions to try and say "thing X meets the definition Y of word W", and then turn around and say "word W is [according to definition Z which is different from Y] a really awful and evil thing therefore Israel is awful and evil", you know, have fun with it.  I'm sticking to "Israel is doing thing X, what is thing X, what do I think of thing X" without all these extra layers of manipulation and obfuscation that serve no purpose other than to play pretend lawyer and construct an argument out of wholecloth when the facts are not on your side.

[Hindsight was 2020]

One thing I would like to add, on a more meta level:


Palestinian sympathizers love to play these word games where they try and create the loosest possible definition of a "bad thing", and then take the most extreme possible interpretation of what Israel is doing, so that they can bridge the gap and say "Israel is doing the bad thing"; and then they immediately turn around and pretend like Israel is meeting the worst, most extreme and dastardly interpretation of that term, rather than the extremely loose definition they're actually applying.

Here's the difference between me and others in this thread.  I don't play these word games.  I don't spend all my time trying to twist what my opponents are doing until they meet some possible definition of a thought-terminating buzzword.  For one thing, I don't have to, since the crimes Hamas is committing are clearly and unambiguously meeting the definitions of terms like "rape" or "terrorism" or "human shields" or "war crimes" in a way that requires no terminological gamesmanship.  But for another, I am dealing with things as they are actually happening, and the simple facts of what Israel and Hamas are doing.

If you want to play some game where you try and twist things around so you can say "Israel is doing thing X", and then play with loosening and manipulation of word definitions to try and say "thing X meets the definition Y of word W", and then turn around and say "word W is [according to definition Z which is different from Y] a really awful and evil thing therefore Israel is awful and evil", you know, have fun with it.  I'm sticking to "Israel is doing thing X, what is thing X, what do I think of thing X" without all these extra layers of manipulation and obfuscation that serve no purpose other than to play pretend lawyer and construct an argument out of wholecloth when the facts are not on your side.

We have Israeli government officials openly talking about reducing the Gaza Strip population to 250k in the post-war world, dude would it kill you to admit their behavior through this conflict has been awful?

[GeneralMacArthur]

We have Israeli government officials openly talking about reducing the Gaza Strip population to 250k in the post-war world, dude would it kill you to admit their behavior through this conflict has been awful?

During the Iraq War we had Republican politicians competing with each other to see who could say the most deplorable things about Muslims.  Tom Tancredo advocated for bombing Mecca!  No I'm not using the quotes of random Israeli politicians as my method for determining whether or not Israel's actions are justifiable.  Even if it was Bibi himself saying this stuff I wouldn't care because his rhetoric has little bearing on what the IDF is actually doing.  When it becomes an actual policy, then I'll start to care.

(and yes I know many of these "random politicians" are in the Israeli cabinet, also don't really care since again, this is just rhetoric and not actual policy).

[pppolitics]

“you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”

- Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

“It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”

- President Isaac Herzog

“[Israel is] imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

- Defence Minister Yoav Gallant

“[t]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”

- Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir

“Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home. Humanitarianism for humanitarianism. And no one will preach us morality.”

- Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure Israel Katz

“[w]e need to deal a blow that hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza.”

- Israeli Minister of Finance Bezalel Smotrich

“The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and
flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes … We must talk about the day after. In my mind, we
will hand over lots to all those who fought for Gaza over the years and to those evicted from
Gush Katif”

- Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu

“we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid”

- Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu

“there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza”

- Israeli Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu

Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said that one of Israel's options in the war against Hamas could be to drop a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip

“we are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba”

- Israeli Minister of Agriculture Avi Dichter

“now we all have one common goal — erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth. Those who are unable will be replaced.”

- Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee Nissim Vaturi

“Hamas became ISIS and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified. Human animals are dealt with accordingly. Israel has imposed a total blockade on Gaza, no electricity, no water, just damage. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”

- Israeli Army Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories Major General Ghassan Alian

"This is what Israel has begun to do — we cut the supply of energy, water and diesel to the Strip . . . But it’s not enough. In order to make the siege effective, we have to prevent others from giving assistance to Gaza . . . The people should be told that they have two choices; to stay and to
starve, or to leave."

- Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister Giora Eiland

“[w]hen you are at war with another country you don't feed them, you don't provide them electricity or gas or water or anything else . . . A country can be attacked in a much broader way, to bring the
country to the brink of dysfunction. This is the necessary outcome of events”

- Giora Eiland

“Israel has no interest in the Gaza Strip being rehabilitated and this is an important point
that needs to be made clear to the Americans”

- Giora Eiland

“if we ever want to see the hostages alive, the only way is to create a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza”

- Giora Eiland

“[water] comes from wells with salt water unfit for consumption. They have water treatment plants, Israel should hit those plants. When the entire world says we have gone insane and this is a humanitarian disaster — we will say, it’s not an end, it’s a means.”

- Giora Eiland

“[C]reate such a huge pressure on Gaza, that Gaza will become an area where people cannot live. People cannot live, until Hamas is destroyed, which means that Israel not only stops to supply energy, diesel, water, food … as we did in the last twenty years … but we should prevent any possible assistance by others, and to create in Gaza such a terrible, unbearable situation, that can last weeks and months”

- Giora Eiland

“the State of Israel has no choice but to make Gaza a place that is temporarily, or permanently, impossible to live in.”

- Giora Eiland

“Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf . . . Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”

- Giora Eiland

“Who are the ‘poor’ women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization, and on the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, then it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand that the war is futile . . . The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this, as difficult as that may be. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer . . . It is precisely its civil collapse that will bring the end of the war closer. When senior Israeli figures say in the media ‘It's either us or them’ we should clarify the question of who is ‘them’. ‘They’ are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the ‘civilian’ officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators, and also the entire Gaza population who enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.”

- President Herzog

“Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them.”

-  Israeli army reservist Ezra Yachin

“work[ing] together with all the bodies in the IDF when the goal is clear — to destroy everything that has been touched by the hand of Hamas”

- Head of the Israeli army’s Air Operations Group Lieutenant colonel Gilad Kinan

“[t]he entire Gaza should resemble Beit Hanoun”

Commander in the 2908th Battalion of the Israeli army Yair Ben David

[w]hoever returns here, if they return here after, will find scorched earth. No houses, no agriculture, no nothing. They have no future”

- Israeli Army Colonel, Deputy Head of COGAT Colonel Yogev Bar
Sheshet

“Vengeance is a great value. There is vengeance over what they did to us … This place will be a fallow land. They will not be able to live here”

- Colonel Erez Eshel

'May your village burn'!! Yes, yes, as far as I'm concerned, it's a great morale to wish Gaza to be wiped out and set on fire. I have often said revenge is a value. They almost occupied the kibbutzim of the south, slaughtered, raped, decapitated and gouged out eyes, almost 1400 were murdered in one Shabbat. So let their village burn. And if 'La Familia' sing it, it's because they understand that the enemy only understands power! And more power.

-  Revital Gottlieb

"They used the word revenge a lot. I don't think it's revenge - it's justice. If you ask me on a personal level - I flatten Gaza, I have no sentiments. Because the killers of the women and children should not be separated from the citizens of Gaza"

- Keti sh**trit

Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth.
That the Gazan monsters will fly to the southern fence and try to enter Egyptian territory.
or they will die.
And their death is evil.
Gaza should be erased.
And fire and smoke on the heads of the Nazis in Judea and Samaria.
Haron is also a Jew who will shake the earth of the world.
A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here.
Anything less is immoral.
Just unethical."

- Tally Gotliv

"Shelling from the air without mercy!! It is enough to feel sorry for cruel people at such painful prices. It is enough to feel sorry for Gazans who are not involved. There are no uninvolved. Any Gazan who remains in a combat location is assisting a terrorist organization. enough!
Change diskette. Destroy every place where there are terrorists and terrorist aides. from the air!!
Do not endanger soldiers if you can shell from the air!"

- Tally Gotliv

"There are no innocents in Gaza."

- Avigdor Liberman

“the killers of the women and children should not be separated from the citizens of Gaza”

-  Katrin “Keti” sh**trit-Peretz

“the children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves”

- Meirav Ben-Ari

“there should be one sentence for everyone there — death”

-  Yitzhak Kroizer

“[w]e must not forget that even the ‘innocent citizens’ — the cruel and monstrous people from Gaza took an active part . . . there is no place for any humanitarian gesture — the memory of Amalek must be protested”

- Boaz Bismouth

“[w]ithout hunger and thirst among the Gazan population, we will not be able to recruit collaborators”

- Revital Gottlieb

"Nuclear Missile! Nuclear Missile! Strategic alert. before considering the introduction of forces.
Nuclear weapon! This is my opinion. May God preserve all our strength"

- Tally Gotliv

"Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join! their Nakba, because like then in 1948, the alternative is clear."

-  Ariel Kallner

[pppolitics]

We have Israeli government officials openly talking about reducing the Gaza Strip population to 250k in the post-war world, dude would it kill you to admit their behavior through this conflict has been awful?

During the Iraq War we had Republican politicians competing with each other to see who could say the most deplorable things about Muslims.  Tom Tancredo advocated for bombing Mecca!  No I'm not using the quotes of random Israeli politicians as my method for determining whether or not Israel's actions are justifiable.  Even if it was Bibi himself saying this stuff I wouldn't care because his rhetoric has little bearing on what the IDF is actually doing.  When it becomes an actual policy, then I'll start to care.

(and yes I know many of these "random politicians" are in the Israeli cabinet, also don't really care since again, this is just rhetoric and not actual policy).

TRANSLATION:

Even though we have many Israeli officials on record talking about genocide, we should assume that it's all crazy talk.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Alright dude, I'm done talking to a brick wall.  Total waste of effort...

[Meclazine for Israel]

Here's the difference between me and others in this thread.  

The main difference between you and others in this thread is you are looking for an intelligent conversation or debate.

You don't ride people like a stolen bike.

You correctly predicted Israel wants to move the vast majority of Palestinians out the southern border and got banned for it under the guise of 'genocide'.

It was like someone on a forum predicting in 1938 that the Germans would invade Poland and Ukraine and build concentration camps for the extermination of the Jewish people.

Predicting the ugly truth of humanity is not a crime.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Here's the difference between me and others in this thread.  

The main difference between you and others in this thread is you are looking for an intelligent conversation or debate.

You don't ride people like a stolen bike.

You correctly predicted Israel wants to move the vast majority of Palestinians out the southern border and got banned for it under the guise of 'genocide'.

It was like someone on a forum predicting in 1938 that the Germans would invade Poland and Ukraine and build concentration camps for the extermination of the Jewish people.

Predicting the ugly truth of humanity is not a crime.

I categorically reject any comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany.

Given my desire to avoid being re-banned I am not willing to discuss any Israeli proposals or plans that may or may not be literally exactly what I said they were going to do, right down to the exact location and strategy vis-a-vis Sinai.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I categorically reject any comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany.

Albert Einstein certainly didn't reject any comparison between Herut (forerunner of Likud) and Nazi Germany.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

There is a difference between being banned / punished for endorsing/calling for an action, and 'predicting' that somethings going to happen that then occurs, which seems to be the rhetorical pivot now.

Despite certain actors trying to blur that distinction, it does exist. But that's all. : )

[GeneralMacArthur]

There is a difference between being banned / punished for endorsing/calling for an action, and 'predicting' that somethings going to happen that then occurs, which seems to be the rhetorical pivot now.

Despite certain actors trying to blur that distinction, it does exist. But that's all. : )

Well, I said it was one of several possible courses of action Israel would likely consider taking.  I never made any prediction as to what Israel would do, beyond the initial invasion, whose result I described accurately

That said, people treated this as though it was some totally absurd notion that I pulled out of my ass, whereas now we see that I was in fact accurate in saying it was a strategically explicable course of action that Israel might reasonably consider.

This is the only post I made on this subject that was ever infracted is this one:

https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566501.msg9237104#msg9237104

Three months later there still is no real plan for a post-Hamas Gaza.  Probably because pretty much any plan will meet with bitter opposition due to the obvious challenges Gaza faces going forward, which I described in my post.  Ironically the ceasefire advocates are the only people who have proposed a serious plan -- namely, letting Hamas continue to govern Gaza until the cycle repeats itself.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

snip

These people cannot be left to their own devices. They're off their rockers.
Thank god the population wants them out, if polls are any indication.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The Guardian is reporting that Gazans are paying between $5-10k to escape Gaza into Egypt.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2024/jan/08/palestinians-flee-gaza-rafah-egypt-border-bribes-to-brokers

"One Palestinian man in the US said he paid $9,000 three weeks ago to get his wife and children on the list. The family have been sheltering in schools since the 7 October attacks."