Russia-Ukraine war and related tensions Megathread

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

That would not at all surprise me.

[Red Velvet]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

Did India even sign the joint communiqué? I read they didn’t.

https://twitter.com/jurgen_nauditt/status/1802343221084766474
It lacks the signature of key regional powers such as Brazil; India; South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

It’s basically an agreement of the Global North joined by just a few lower players that are useful idiots with Right-Wing puppet governments in the Global South (+ Boric’s Chile, but that’s kinda the same thing).

Milei’s Argentina is the biggest South name there if you don’t count ambiguous Turkey (Western but also not Western) and having Argentina as your biggest name to exemplify decent Global South support is not a good look lmao. Especially when it’s with a white supremacist sympathizer like Milei that is deluded in seeing itself as more of an White European than part of the Global periphery.

[MasterJedi]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

Did India even sign the joint communiqué? I read they didn’t.

https://twitter.com/jurgen_nauditt/status/1802343221084766474
It lacks the signature of key regional powers such as Brazil; India; South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

It’s basically an agreement of the Global North joined by just a few lower players that are useful idiots with Right-Wing puppet governments in the Global South (+ Boric’s Chile, but that’s kinda the same thing).

Milei’s Argentina is the biggest South name there if you don’t count ambiguous Turkey (Western but also not Western) and having Argentina as your biggest name to exemplify decent Global South support is not a good look lmao. Especially when it’s with a white supremacist sympathizer like Milei that is deluded in seeing itself as more of an White European than part of the Global periphery.

Russian/China usual idiot slave countries need to fall in line, so they won’t sign or get cut off from the cash.

[Red Velvet]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

Did India even sign the joint communiqué? I read they didn’t.

https://twitter.com/jurgen_nauditt/status/1802343221084766474
It lacks the signature of key regional powers such as Brazil; India; South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

It’s basically an agreement of the Global North joined by just a few lower players that are useful idiots with Right-Wing puppet governments in the Global South (+ Boric’s Chile, but that’s kinda the same thing).

Milei’s Argentina is the biggest South name there if you don’t count ambiguous Turkey (Western but also not Western) and having Argentina as your biggest name to exemplify decent Global South support is not a good look lmao. Especially when it’s with a white supremacist sympathizer like Milei that is deluded in seeing itself as more of an White European than part of the Global periphery.

Russian/China usual idiot slave countries need to fall in line, so they won’t sign or get cut off from the cash.

Lmao at suggesting India or anyone else is a slave of China or of an increasingly decadent Russia. Many of these places hate China and Russia cannot even sustain themselves these days, imagine anyone else.

Btw, this obsession with characterizing Global South countries as slaves of anyone as if that was the only possible position they could occupy has a very clear name: racism.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Lmao at suggesting India or anyone else is a slave of China or of an increasingly decadent Russia. Many of these places hate China and Russia cannot even sustain themselves these days, imagine anyone else.

Btw, this obsession with characterizing Global South countries as slaves of anyone as if that was the only possible position they could occupy has a very clear name: racism.

Nations can indeed have legitimate interests that don't align with NATO countries. This rhetoric is inexact. The world is and always will be heirarchal, it will NEVER be the case that all countries are equal in practice.

[Hindsight was 2020]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

Did India even sign the joint communiqué? I read they didn’t.

https://twitter.com/jurgen_nauditt/status/1802343221084766474
It lacks the signature of key regional powers such as Brazil; India; South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

It’s basically an agreement of the Global North joined by just a few lower players that are useful idiots with Right-Wing puppet governments in the Global South (+ Boric’s Chile, but that’s kinda the same thing).

Milei’s Argentina is the biggest South name there if you don’t count ambiguous Turkey (Western but also not Western) and having Argentina as your biggest name to exemplify decent Global South support is not a good look lmao. Especially when it’s with a white supremacist sympathizer like Milei that is deluded in seeing itself as more of an White European than part of the Global periphery.

Russian/China usual idiot slave countries need to fall in line, so they won’t sign or get cut off from the cash.

Lmao at suggesting India or anyone else is a slave of China or of an increasingly decadent Russia. Many of these places hate China and Russia cannot even sustain themselves these days, imagine anyone else.

Btw, this obsession with characterizing Global South countries as slaves of anyone as if that was the only possible position they could occupy has a very clear name: racism.

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

[MasterJedi]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

Did India even sign the joint communiqué? I read they didn’t.

https://twitter.com/jurgen_nauditt/status/1802343221084766474
It lacks the signature of key regional powers such as Brazil; India; South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

It’s basically an agreement of the Global North joined by just a few lower players that are useful idiots with Right-Wing puppet governments in the Global South (+ Boric’s Chile, but that’s kinda the same thing).

Milei’s Argentina is the biggest South name there if you don’t count ambiguous Turkey (Western but also not Western) and having Argentina as your biggest name to exemplify decent Global South support is not a good look lmao. Especially when it’s with a white supremacist sympathizer like Milei that is deluded in seeing itself as more of an White European than part of the Global periphery.

Russian/China usual idiot slave countries need to fall in line, so they won’t sign or get cut off from the cash.

Lmao at suggesting India or anyone else is a slave of China or of an increasingly decadent Russia. Many of these places hate China and Russia cannot even sustain themselves these days, imagine anyone else.

Btw, this obsession with characterizing Global South countries as slaves of anyone as if that was the only possible position they could occupy has a very clear name: racism.

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

Well yes, he hates all white “westerners” but has no problem being leashed to China and Russia (who he doesn’t see as “white”).

[Red Velvet]

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

The countries leaderships definitely are not. I’m not saying this randomly just because the countries signed the document lol, I’m saying it because I looked at the blue countries in the map and I could tell which ideological line of thought they follow.

Take Latin America for example, all the countries in blue are led by right-wingers that are naturally whiter and pro-elites, historically behaving exactly as dumb and with no personality like they are doing now because they like to imagine themselves as white and western “equals” even if they will never be treated accordingly.

The ONLY single exception to this rule is Boric in Chile, who is already known as the black sheep in Latam’s Left. Boric is kinda that good-hearted kid that you bully in school because they’re such an easy and pathetic target and they will still be nice to you afterwards because they’re too much of idealistic losers.

Not just that, but Chile also has levels of higher development for Global South standards that gives it some privileges which stimulates it to broadly see itself as a parameter too, assuming that for others too. Which is why I don’t attribute this positioning to just Boric personally, I think it’s decent representation of what Chilean Left is.

Boric believes that by positioning in this war according to “morals and principles” instead of “geopolitics”, it stimulates every other conflict to be treated under same lenses when that’s just a stupid notion. His position about this war doesn’t matter at all, the global system is too biased towards a Western Hierarchical logic that he can scream about “Morals and Principles” as much as he wants that they will STILL only be applied as really fair when it’s on the Western Geopolitical benefit.

The treatment of Palestine is the exact proof of that. It’s only through QUESTIONING AND PRESSURING the established system that you can force it to change in order to fit a more equal and better distributed world order.

Democracy in global south countries NEVER come from the “liberal western order”, the south had to FIGHT that western order to GET that democracy instead. India is largest  democracy in the world today because it questioned UK colonialism; Brazil had to deal with Portugal colonialism in the distant past and US supporting outright fascists that were anti-democracy; etc etc. Liberal Democracy was achieved from within, DESPITE western efforts.

In the same way, the current global “rules-based” order that only works for the White countries can only really change if the Whites feel real pressure for it to change and the way to do it is if it makes them uncomfortable. No one can point fingers at the South for applying on them the same rules they apply on us to this day.

No one buys that they will pull a red carpet for more Global South countries to take center-stage in global discussions like Boric assumes, it’s up for the Global South to force itself into that by forging a new world order.

And a new world order actually strengthens liberal values by getting rid of hierarchies that reserve those concepts only for the white and rich. If there are bumps in the middle of the road, it will still be worth the end result of a fairer and more equal world where peace isn’t treated as a privilege, but as a right of all.

[Hollywood]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

Did India even sign the joint communiqué? I read they didn’t.

https://twitter.com/jurgen_nauditt/status/1802343221084766474
It lacks the signature of key regional powers such as Brazil; India; South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

It’s basically an agreement of the Global North joined by just a few lower players that are useful idiots with Right-Wing puppet governments in the Global South (+ Boric’s Chile, but that’s kinda the same thing).

Milei’s Argentina is the biggest South name there if you don’t count ambiguous Turkey (Western but also not Western) and having Argentina as your biggest name to exemplify decent Global South support is not a good look lmao. Especially when it’s with a white supremacist sympathizer like Milei that is deluded in seeing itself as more of an White European than part of the Global periphery.

Russian/China usual idiot slave countries need to fall in line, so they won’t sign or get cut off from the cash.

Lmao at suggesting India or anyone else is a slave of China or of an increasingly decadent Russia. Many of these places hate China and Russia cannot even sustain themselves these days, imagine anyone else.

Btw, this obsession with characterizing Global South countries as slaves of anyone as if that was the only possible position they could occupy has a very clear name: racism.

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

This whole conversation is priceless.

I'm pretty sure he hates all people that want to identify by their actual race/national origin instead of being shoe-horned into the Hispanic category that was invented 50 years ago by left-wing activists who are currently trying to recategorize them as Latinx.  He doesn't like the fact that Argentinians identify as White even though they are white, and 97% are fully or partially descended from Europe.  Half the Central and Southern Americans in the US consider themselves White and would rather go by their nationality instead region.  Half the inter-racial marriages are between Hispanics and Whites.

BTW... Thinking someone is racist against countries is pretty dumb, but you almost had it.  He's not racist because he hates the countries. 

[Red Velvet]

This whole conversation is priceless.

I'm pretty sure he hates all people that want to identify by their actual race/national origin instead of being shoe-horned into the Hispanic category that was invented 50 years ago by left-wing activists who are currently trying to recategorize them as Latinx.  He doesn't like the fact that Argentinians identify as White even though they are white, and 97% are fully or partially descended from Europe.  Half the Central and Southern Americans in the US consider themselves White and would rather go by their nationality instead region.  Half the inter-racial marriages are between Hispanics and Whites.

BTW... Thinking someone is racist against countries is pretty dumb, but you almost had it.  He's not racist because he hates the countries.  

Lol, think again. I am Brazilian and I certainly don’t identify as either Hispanic or Latinx.

I am both White Brazilian and Latino but I understand that individual identity is something different  from national identity and my country is much more diverse and certainly isn’t part of that white western international club.

Also, nice attempt at arguing Latin America (not even just Argentina lol) is white /s

It’s funny that Westerners only love to play up Latin America “whiteness” when they feel they can use it for the sake of political alignment to THEIR side. It’s how White Latino Right-Wingers always are duped into believing that they’re part of the same club too and that they enjoy similar privileges lol.

Latin America (including Argentina) is too Mixed and heterogeneous, it cannot be simplified in just one thing. People can identify as literally everything because of high diversity. However, it certainly is far from being a beneficiary of the White privilege of the established liberal world order. Which is why it belongs in the Global South to begin with.

PS: Hating countries leaderships or their mentality is different than hating the countries themselves. That’s just a basic concept.

[Hindsight was 2020]

The joint communiqué of the Summit on Peace for Ukraine does not refer to “aggression” as Ukraine wants it but uses the word “war.”  I suspect this is the work of India who did attend but clearly not the head of state.

Did India even sign the joint communiqué? I read they didn’t.

https://twitter.com/jurgen_nauditt/status/1802343221084766474
It lacks the signature of key regional powers such as Brazil; India; South Africa and Saudi Arabia.

It’s basically an agreement of the Global North joined by just a few lower players that are useful idiots with Right-Wing puppet governments in the Global South (+ Boric’s Chile, but that’s kinda the same thing).

Milei’s Argentina is the biggest South name there if you don’t count ambiguous Turkey (Western but also not Western) and having Argentina as your biggest name to exemplify decent Global South support is not a good look lmao. Especially when it’s with a white supremacist sympathizer like Milei that is deluded in seeing itself as more of an White European than part of the Global periphery.

Russian/China usual idiot slave countries need to fall in line, so they won’t sign or get cut off from the cash.

Lmao at suggesting India or anyone else is a slave of China or of an increasingly decadent Russia. Many of these places hate China and Russia cannot even sustain themselves these days, imagine anyone else.

Btw, this obsession with characterizing Global South countries as slaves of anyone as if that was the only possible position they could occupy has a very clear name: racism.

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

This whole conversation is priceless.

I'm pretty sure he hates all people that want to identify by their actual race/national origin instead of being shoe-horned into the Hispanic category that was invented 50 years ago by left-wing activists who are currently trying to recategorize them as Latinx.  He doesn't like the fact that Argentinians identify as White even though they are white, and 97% are fully or partially descended from Europe.  Half the Central and Southern Americans in the US consider themselves White and would rather go by their nationality instead region.  Half the inter-racial marriages are between Hispanics and Whites.

BTW... Thinking someone is racist against countries is pretty dumb, but you almost had it.  He's not racist because he hates the countries. 

Oh my god does no one on this site get sarcasm anymore unless there is an /s at the end? I was mocking Red’s attempt to say that MasterJedi calling the Russian enablers in the Global South “Russian slaves” is racist

[kaoras]

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

The countries leaderships definitely are not. I’m not saying this randomly just because the countries signed the document lol, I’m saying it because I looked at the blue countries in the map and I could tell which ideological line of thought they follow.

Take Latin America for example, all the countries in blue are led by right-wingers that are naturally whiter and pro-elites, historically behaving exactly as dumb and with no personality like they are doing now because they like to imagine themselves as white and western “equals” even if they will never be treated accordingly.

The ONLY single exception to this rule is Boric in Chile, who is already known as the black sheep in Latam’s Left. Boric is kinda that good-hearted kid that you bully in school because they’re such an easy and pathetic target and they will still be nice to you afterwards because they’re too much of idealistic losers.

Not just that, but Chile also has levels of higher development for Global South standards that gives it some privileges which stimulates it to broadly see itself as a parameter too, assuming that for others too. Which is why I don’t attribute this positioning to just Boric personally, I think it’s decent representation of what Chilean Left is.

Yeah but this just shows how much of an aweonao you are. Boric for example refused to sell weapons to Ukraine and actually banned Israeli military companies from an international event in Chile over Palestine and joined South Africa's lawsuit on the ICC.

By all accounts, you should love his foreign policy but you are so high up on your own ass, ignorance and prejudices that you are just blind to reality

[Lumine]

Rare but nonetheless creditable win for President Boric.

Relieved to see my country on the right side of history, no matter what the Kremlin apologists may whine about as part of this global south delusion.

[lfromnj]

A peace conference without even an invitation to one of the combatants is not a serious conference.

[2952-0-0]

A peace conference without even an invitation to one of the combatants is not a serious conference.

What about Casablanca, Cairo, Yalta, and Potsdam?

[Red Velvet]

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

The countries leaderships definitely are not. I’m not saying this randomly just because the countries signed the document lol, I’m saying it because I looked at the blue countries in the map and I could tell which ideological line of thought they follow.

Take Latin America for example, all the countries in blue are led by right-wingers that are naturally whiter and pro-elites, historically behaving exactly as dumb and with no personality like they are doing now because they like to imagine themselves as white and western “equals” even if they will never be treated accordingly.

The ONLY single exception to this rule is Boric in Chile, who is already known as the black sheep in Latam’s Left. Boric is kinda that good-hearted kid that you bully in school because they’re such an easy and pathetic target and they will still be nice to you afterwards because they’re too much of idealistic losers.

Not just that, but Chile also has levels of higher development for Global South standards that gives it some privileges which stimulates it to broadly see itself as a parameter too, assuming that for others too. Which is why I don’t attribute this positioning to just Boric personally, I think it’s decent representation of what Chilean Left is.

Yeah but this just shows how much of an aweonao you are. Boric for example refused to sell weapons to Ukraine and actually banned Israeli military companies from an international event in Chile over Palestine and joined South Africa's lawsuit on the ICC.

By all accounts, you should love his foreign policy but you are so high up on your own ass, ignorance and prejudices that you are just blind to reality

Oh wow that’s breaking news to me, Boric didn’t sell any arms to Ukraine like Milei is doing. I guess that’s why I openly put him in the “Idealistic Loser” category instead of “Racist Right-Winger” one when talking about the Latin American countries that signed the comuniqué.

Reason I like to make fun of Boric isn’t even because he attends and takes seriously pointless summits with no results like this one, but the arguments he gives for it like he was making a speech at an university progressive movement or something instead of being Chile’s president.

The notion that not participating on this stuff validates “the same being done to us” is absolutely ridiculous when you look at Palestine and EVERY other situation where it doesn’t matter what position you have because of existing global hierarchies. If you want to assure that the same won’t be done to us, it’s only by BREAKING these hierarchies instead of giving them stronger validation.

You’ve always been snarky towards Boric as well and I also don’t understand why you do it as you always seem mostly quite aligned with most of his FP to me. Maybe your differences are more domestic, where it’s easier for you to see those qualities of him.

I didn’t even need to read the news that Boric’s Chile would be more aligned with Milei’s Argentina + Boluarte’s Peru + Noboa’s Ecuador + Lacalle Pou’s Uruguay than with Lula’s Brazil + Petro’s Colombia + AMLO’s Mexico on this particular matter, because it’s the exact type of event that plays up to his naivety, inexperience and college-like idealism.

[Hindsight was 2020]

You described global south countries that support Ukraine “useful idiots” which implies these countries aren’t smart and clearly you only think these countries are dumb is racism

The countries leaderships definitely are not. I’m not saying this randomly just because the countries signed the document lol, I’m saying it because I looked at the blue countries in the map and I could tell which ideological line of thought they follow.

Take Latin America for example, all the countries in blue are led by right-wingers that are naturally whiter and pro-elites, historically behaving exactly as dumb and with no personality like they are doing now because they like to imagine themselves as white and western “equals” even if they will never be treated accordingly.

The ONLY single exception to this rule is Boric in Chile, who is already known as the black sheep in Latam’s Left. Boric is kinda that good-hearted kid that you bully in school because they’re such an easy and pathetic target and they will still be nice to you afterwards because they’re too much of idealistic losers.

Not just that, but Chile also has levels of higher development for Global South standards that gives it some privileges which stimulates it to broadly see itself as a parameter too, assuming that for others too. Which is why I don’t attribute this positioning to just Boric personally, I think it’s decent representation of what Chilean Left is.

Yeah but this just shows how much of an aweonao you are. Boric for example refused to sell weapons to Ukraine and actually banned Israeli military companies from an international event in Chile over Palestine and joined South Africa's lawsuit on the ICC.

By all accounts, you should love his foreign policy but you are so high up on your own ass, ignorance and prejudices that you are just blind to reality

Oh wow that’s breaking news to me, Boric didn’t sell any arms to Ukraine like Milei is doing. I guess that’s why I openly put him in the “Idealistic Loser” category instead of “Racist Right-Winger” one when talking about the Latin American countries that signed the comuniqué.

Reason I like to make fun of Boric isn’t even because he attends and takes seriously pointless summits with no results like this one, but the arguments he gives for it like he was making a speech at an university progressive movement or something instead of being Chile’s president.

The notion that not participating on this stuff validates “the same being done to us” is absolutely ridiculous when you look at Palestine and EVERY other situation where it doesn’t matter what position you have because of existing global hierarchies. If you want to assure that the same won’t be done to us, it’s only by BREAKING these hierarchies instead of giving them stronger validation.

You’ve always been snarky towards Boric as well and I also don’t understand why you do it as you always seem mostly quite aligned with most of his FP to me. Maybe your differences are more domestic, where it’s easier for you to see those qualities of him.

I didn’t even need to read the news that Boric’s Chile would be more aligned with Milei’s Argentina + Boluarte’s Peru + Noboa’s Ecuador + Lacalle Pou’s Uruguay than with Lula’s Brazil + Petro’s Colombia + AMLO’s Mexico on this particular matter, because it’s the exact type of event that plays up to his naivety, inexperience and college-like idealism.

Just to be clear for anyone getting lost in your endless ramblings you’re essentially arguing that Ukraine should be punished for being Western aligned. It’s literally a case of “I’d sacrifice a million Ukrainians if it means US hegemony is damaged as a result” while giving the rest of us crap for viewing this conflict in black in white terms. I mean you degrade Boric for his supposed college line idealism but your position is immature anti-West campism trying to be dressed up as a serious geopolitical thought.

[Red Velvet]

Just to be clear for anyone getting lost in your endless ramblings you’re essentially arguing that Ukraine should be punished for being Western aligned. It’s literally a case of “I’d sacrifice a million Ukrainians if it means US hegemony is damaged as a result” while giving the rest of us crap for viewing this conflict in black in white terms. I mean you degrade Boric for his supposed college line idealism but your position is immature anti-West campism trying to be dressed up as a serious geopolitical thought.

Depends on how intertwined your definitions of “Ukraine support” and “Self-interest” are.

I personally believe there’s a way to support Ukraine without really compromising the self-interest of other countries.

This means, would I support a full economic boycott on Russia or the validation of oppressive and illiberal hierarchies for the sake of Ukraine? Of course not.

However, I would support Russian defeat that minimizes Ukrainian losses (of territory, etc). That comes from either a peace negotiated deal - what I’ve always defended - OR a real Western commitment to ensure that Ukraine doesn’t lose ground.

The thing is, I don’t really believe the West is really committed to Ukraine for that 2nd path to EVER be possible - like sending their men to fight on the ground - their goal is mostly driven on self-interests of weakening Russia as Ukraine is of little geopolitical value for them.

I tend to believe harsher action would’ve been taken earlier in order to pushback Russia if they really wanted to end this. Instead, what we’ve seen so far was only uncommitted and limited help in the shape of some weapons (which definitely won’t put Russia away by themselves) and rhetoric and useless shows like this summit.

I don’t see the West being as that Pro-Ukraine as you otoh may see at all. Which is why I never really bought the 2nd scenario as realistic at all, as it would be dependent on Western interest on Ukraine that doesn’t seem to exist.

Even the attitude in this forum exemplifies the Western disinterest about Ukraine. Compare it to the Israel/Palestine forum and you’ll see where the Western concerns are. And they don’t really come from moral and principles, but from geopolitical interests as Israel has MUCH more of a geopolitical value to US than Ukraine does.

Western actions seem much more focused on extending/prolonging the war than actually ending it. They give enough help for Ukraine to hold but not too much so that Russia doesn’t get kicked either.

And that’s something I’m fiercely against. It’s important to end the war sooner (regardless of how) than prolong it indefinitely. Since I believe West isn’t interested in helping Ukraine to kick Russia out, I believe peace deal is only possible way.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Just to be clear for anyone getting lost in your endless ramblings you’re essentially arguing that Ukraine should be punished for being Western aligned. It’s literally a case of “I’d sacrifice a million Ukrainians if it means US hegemony is damaged as a result” while giving the rest of us crap for viewing this conflict in black in white terms. I mean you degrade Boric for his supposed college line idealism but your position is immature anti-West campism trying to be dressed up as a serious geopolitical thought.

Depends on how intertwined your definitions of “Ukraine support” and “Self-interest” are.

I personally believe there’s a way to support Ukraine without really compromising the self-interest of other countries.

This means, would I support a full economic boycott on Russia or the validation of oppressive and illiberal hierarchies for the sake of Ukraine? Of course not.

However, I would support Russian defeat that minimizes Ukrainian losses (of territory, etc). That comes from either a peace negotiated deal - what I’ve always defended - OR a real Western commitment to ensure that Ukraine doesn’t lose ground.

The thing is, I don’t really believe the West is really committed to Ukraine for that 2nd path to EVER be possible - like sending their men to fight on the ground - their goal is mostly driven on self-interests of weakening Russia as Ukraine is of little geopolitical value for them.

I tend to believe harsher action would’ve been taken earlier in order to pushback Russia if they really wanted to end this. Instead, what we’ve seen so far was only uncommitted and limited help in the shape of some weapons (which definitely won’t put Russia away by themselves) and rhetoric and useless shows like this summit.

I don’t see the West being as that Pro-Ukraine as you otoh may see at all. Which is why I never really bought the 2nd scenario as realistic at all, as it would be dependent on Western interest on Ukraine that doesn’t seem to exist.

Even the attitude in this forum exemplifies the Western disinterest about Ukraine. Compare it to the Israel/Palestine forum and you’ll see where the Western concerns are. And they don’t really come from moral and principles, but from geopolitical interests as Israel has MUCH more of a geopolitical value to US than Ukraine does.

Western actions seem much more focused on extending/prolonging the war than actually ending it. They give enough help for Ukraine to hold but not too much so that Russia doesn’t get kicked either.

And that’s something I’m fiercely against. It’s important to end the war sooner (regardless of how) than prolong it indefinitely.

Even though that’s what you want done with Israel and it seems that the only reason you want Israel punished is not because the actual awful conduct they’ve done but due to be a U.S. ally

[Red Velvet]

Even though that’s what you want done with Israel and it seems that the only reason you want Israel punished is not because the actual awful conduct they’ve done but due to be a U.S. ally

US has nothing to do with it bb. Sometimes countries just have different interests as they’re in different positions or backgrounds and that’s okay.

Russia simply has more of a geopolitical value than Israel from MY self-interest lenses. It’s not really a country that you can erase or isolate for pressure.

It’s absolutely no different to how Israel has infinitely more geopolitical value to USA than Russia or Ukraine, though in this case it’s more about seeing Russia as a competitor/threat.

The key difference in the comparison that I would point out to you (and is probably why you don’t realize how your logic is flawed) is that Brazil doesn’t nearly have as much power and influence as the USA. If Brazil positioned against Russia it definitely wouldn’t change anything about their stance or end the war. It would also mean a democratic line that Russia is open to somewhat listen would be lost so what’s even the point of creating that geopolitical tension?

USA by itself CAN however influence Israel’s position regarding Gaza. Though I don’t think that means it’s necessarily OBLIGED to, but there is totally a bigger social and humanitarian responsibility the more powerful you are so they SHOULD do it.

If Brazil was currently the largest power in the world for example, I definitely would support a different stance from Brazil on Russia but it STILL wouldn’t be the same that the USA is having. I would support going all in (sending my people to fight) and entering war against Russia if they refused to leave.

But if for whatever reason it wasn’t on my self-interest to take that risk (Like it currently looks like it for USA), I would naturally support the same negotiated Peace deal that I’m supporting now so my positioning IS extremely consistent.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Even though that’s what you want done with Israel and it seems that the only reason you want Israel punished is not because the actual awful conduct they’ve done but due to be a U.S. ally

US has nothing to do with it bb. Sometimes countries just have different interests as they’re in different positions or backgrounds and that’s okay.

Russia simply has more of a geopolitical value than Israel from MY self-interest lenses. It’s not really a country that you can erase or isolate for pressure.

It’s absolutely no different to how Israel has infinitely more geopolitical value to USA than Russia or Ukraine, though in this case it’s more about seeing Russia as a competitor/threat.

The key difference in the comparison that I would point out to you (and is probably why you don’t realize how your logic is flawed) is that Brazil doesn’t nearly have as much power and influence as the USA. If Brazil positioned against Russia it definitely wouldn’t change anything about their stance or end the war. It would also mean a democratic line that Russia is open to somewhat listen would be lost so what’s even the point of creating that geopolitical tension?

USA by itself CAN however influence Israel’s position regarding Gaza. Though I don’t think that means it’s necessarily OBLIGED to, but there is totally a bigger social and humanitarian responsibility the more powerful you are so they SHOULD do it.

If Brazil was currently the largest power in the world for example, I definitely would support a different stance from Brazil on Russia but it STILL wouldn’t be the same that the USA is having. I would support going all in (sending my people to fight) and entering war against Russia if they refused to leave.

But if for whatever reason it wasn’t on my self-interest to take that risk (Like it currently looks like it for USA), I would naturally support the same negotiated Peace deal that I’m supporting now so my positioning IS extremely consistent.

So after all the ranting and raving about Western hypocrisy via Israel you’re self admitting to being a bad faith and give Russia a pass on its awful conduct that you won’t give Israel’s because one is more of an ally than the other. Also spare me this “oh what could we do?” routine both your country and South Africa (whom you also rooted on still trading with Russia) threatening with cutting off trade would go a long on Russia’s ability to continue this war

[Red Velvet]

So after all the ranting and raving about Western hypocrisy via Israel you’re self admitting to being a bad faith and give Russia a pass on its awful conduct that you won’t give Israel’s because one is more of an ally than the other. Also spare me this “oh what could we do?” routine both your country and South Africa (whom you also rooted on still trading with Russia) threatening with cutting off trade would go a long on Russia’s ability to continue this war

Not at all, as I’ve never pretended to treat these matters through only the eyes of “Morals and Principles”, I always take the “Geopolitical” factor into equal and important consideration.

Otherwise you end up turning into Gabriel Boric or like you! That’s the burden YOU choose to carry by forcing yourself to always be morally consistent.

“Morals and Principles” are an universal truth while “Geopolitics” are way more subjective but you cannot simply act like they are complete separate entities. Countries should follow their self-interest without compromising their morals in the best possible way they can.

I don’t believe in either “Moral” purists and false saints that are shallow and overly-idealistic (Like you, inevitably bound to contradiction because that’s an impossible standard to follow) or “Geopolitics realists truthers” that are overly-pragmatic and are capable of the worst possible stuff for self-interest only (the OSR types). There is a possible way of finding the best balance, which is inherently different for each reality.

[OSR stands with Israel]

So after all the ranting and raving about Western hypocrisy via Israel you’re self admitting to being a bad faith and give Russia a pass on its awful conduct that you won’t give Israel’s because one is more of an ally than the other. Also spare me this “oh what could we do?” routine both your country and South Africa (whom you also rooted on still trading with Russia) threatening with cutting off trade would go a long on Russia’s ability to continue this war

Not at all, as I’ve never pretended to treat these matters through only the eyes of “Morals and Principles”, I always take the “Geopolitical” factor into equal and important consideration.

Otherwise you end up turning into Gabriel Boric or like you! That’s the burden YOU choose to carry by forcing yourself to always be morally consistent.

“Morals and Principles” are an universal truth while “Geopolitics” are way more subjective but you cannot simply act like they are complete separate entities. Countries should follow their self-interest without compromising their morals in the best possible way they can.

I don’t believe in either “Moral” purists and false saints that are shallow and overly-idealistic (Like you, inevitably bound to contradiction because that’s an impossible standard to follow) or “Geopolitics realists truthers” that are overly-pragmatic and are capable of the worst possible stuff for self-interest only (the OSR types). There is a possible way of finding the best balance, which is inherently different for each reality.

I don’t support everything that is purely in our interest. I oppose:

- our enabling of Azerbaijan

- I did not support arming the Syrian rebels and viewed Assad as the lesser evil against the rebels

- l did not cheer on the Wagner attempted coup in Russia


I don’t just support Israel cause it’s in American interests too . I also believe it’s the moral position as well. I believe supporting Palestine is immoral and fully believe that Palestinian nationalism as it currently exists needs to be destroyed

[Red Velvet]

I don’t just support Israel cause it’s in American interests too . I also believe it’s the moral position as well. I believe supporting Palestine is immoral and fully believe that Palestinian nationalism as it currently exists needs to be destroyed

Then your problem is just one of dumb logic as Palestinian Nationalism only tends to get STRONGER with what Israel is doing, also with increased global sympathy.

In that case, Israel actions are counterproductive to your established goals and you would position yourself against them.

Unless what you mean is destroying Palestinians (cut the nationalism) altogether and in that case that’s simply not the objective Moral position at all as you cannot argue for ethnic cleansing to be the moral position.

It can be the more convenient to you (which puts you again in the realist purists camp), but definitely not the moral one even if you try to convince yourself about it.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I don’t just support Israel cause it’s in American interests too . I also believe it’s the moral position as well. I believe supporting Palestine is immoral and fully believe that Palestinian nationalism as it currently exists needs to be destroyed

Then your problem is just one of dumb logic as Palestinian Nationalism only tends to get STRONGER with what Israel is doing, also with increased global sympathy.

In that case, Israel actions are counterproductive to your established goals and you would position yourself against them.

Unless what you mean is destroying Palestinians (cut the nationalism) altogether and in that case that’s simply not the objective Moral position at all as you cannot argue for ethnic cleansing to be the moral position.

It can be the more convenient to you (which puts you again in the realist purists camp), but definitely not the moral one even if you try to convince yourself about it.

Responded to this point in the I/P thread: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=566181.msg9517201#msg9517201