Israeli General Election (2019) II: Electric Boogaloo (17.9.2019)

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

Hahahahhah. This is so dumb.

I'm not saying that because you're anti-Zionist either.

There are plenty of smart anti-Zionists who can intelligently articulate why there should be a one state solution.

The fact that you say Israel is evil but you like Rabin shows you have never studied the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in depth. There is no way an anti-Zionist One Stare who thinks Israel is evil could ever have a positive opinion of Rabin if they knew his record.

This is the equivalent of the type of person who calls migrant detention centers under Trump "concentration camps" but loves Obama even though he ran the same camps.

I said I'd be fine with it, I am not an avid one or two stater at this point really, I think there are good (but not practical options) in both with good people that support one state solutions and also good people that support two state solutions.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

Please leave this thread (one of the bright spots of usually quality discussion on Atlas) and take your dumb racist takes elsewhere, thanks

It's really telling that the thread about Israel is the only one filled with these kinds of takes, and also the "YOU CAN ONLY TALK ABOUT (the incredibly complex issue I've boiled down to evil Jews vs poor Arabs)" takes. Thanks for constantly reminding me why I'm a Zionist.

Stale stuff here, just the typical zionist line of "you said mean things about Israel, you are now officially a Hitler wannabe who hates all Jewish people." So reassuring to know that I can bring out the worst in otherwise good people, I'm such an evil person, it's keeping me up at 3 in the morning.

Seriously though Imma stop before I get too much sh!t from the mods for thread derailment.

[Walmart_shopper]

I happen to believe that certain Elements of the Israeli left, who think that Conversion therapy, a lack of Gay Marriage or the Haredim not being drafted are the huge moral injustices that the country faces, have a very strange focus.
Jewish gay people are hardly the most underprivileged or "oppressed" people there, lets be serious here.

I agree, but this is literally how and where this election is being fought. Which is very, very good for the Israeli left, because most Israelis have very liberal views on religious, gay rights, and other social issues.

[Walmart_shopper]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond you edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs in really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.

Eh, I think Jewish racism towards Arabs is a HUGE part of the story, and frankly a huge part of the amputated monster that limps around today calling itself "Zionism." But I also agree that it is only a part of the story.

[Walmart_shopper]

To be honest, what this whole affair proves is that Rafi Peretz is just a very lousy politician. I mean, Smotrich is more homophobic and definitely much more racist than him, but he's able to keep his mouth shut a bit, while still throwing red meat, which makes him popular. Peretz is just... a walking talking gaffe machine.

I hate Itamar Ben Gvir passionately, but a broken clock and all- what he said a few days ago about the Jewish Home really is true. They a very elitist party which sees itself above all other sects of the religious Zionist population, and you can see that in their insistence that Rafi Peretz, as awful a politician as he is, leads any united list.

No, this is just another example of why an election fought on religious issues is an unmitigated disaster for the Israeli right. On economic policy, people give Netanyahu too much credit for an economy that is given too much credit. On immigration or Arab/Jewish issues Israel isn't as racist as the right wing, but it is racist enough to still help the right. On security issues the country likewise is more reasonable than the right, but still unreasonable enough to help Netanyahu. But on religious issues? You basically have the right wing having to apologize for a country as secular as most or Europe being governed by policies (and politicians) as conservative as the rest of the Middle East. The closeness of the right to religious fanatics in a mostly secular and libertine country like Israel has alwayd been a bomb ready to blow up in Netanyahu's face and now that is exactly what we are witnessing.

It is just a sad commentary on how weak the leftist opposition is that it took Yvette Liberman to light the fuse. But now that it's lit the opposition is finally able to punch down at the right. It has been a long time since it has felt this way.

[Hnv1]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond you edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs in really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.

Eh, I think Jewish racism towards Arabs is a HUGE part of the story, and frankly a huge part of the amputated monster that limps around today calling itself "Zionism." But I also agree that it is only a part of the story.

It's a part of different stories taking different proportion in each one. In the particular story of why the peace process is stagnating racism plays a minimal part (perhaps as background to suspicion of Arab culture). Even self confessed racists wouldn't give racist grounds for the occupation, there is very little 'south african' element to the conflict right now and it exists in the fringe points of the right. The Israeli preference of the status quo despite of the occupation originates from more pragmatic approach not a racial one (it could be an undertone)

If you want to tell the story of the origin of the conflict it plays a bigger part.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond you edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs in really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.

Eh, I think Jewish racism towards Arabs is a HUGE part of the story, and frankly a huge part of the amputated monster that limps around today calling itself "Zionism." But I also agree that it is only a part of the story.

I wouldn’t say that. I want to make clear that I think it’s the Netanyahu government (and like governments before him)  and their enablers that let his ilk run the country that are the horrible people that have made the country a bad place (it used to be decent at certain points), and some people who vote for Netanyahu and his ilk are still good people but with that one flaw, I don’t see this as an issue to point the finger at a good religion and most of its people at all.

[DavidB.]

No, this is just another example of why an election fought on religious issues is an unmitigated disaster for the Israeli right.

I believe it when I see it. Just wait for the next poll that has the combined right at 64 and Likud on par with B&W.

[The Mikado]

Bagel, less posting, more reading. Your posts are so ill-informed that you actually make Famous Mortimer look like a decent poster able to effectively score points off of you, and that is a VERY bad sign for anyone.

[The Mikado]

No, this is just another example of why an election fought on religious issues is an unmitigated disaster for the Israeli right.

I believe it when I see it. Just wait for the next poll that has the combined right at 64 and Likud on par with B&W.

Such a poll would likely be a disaster for Netanyahu. Lieberman's cohort would be at, what, 6-8 seats? That'd put Netanyahu even more underwater than he was last election.

[DavidB.]

No, this is just another example of why an election fought on religious issues is an unmitigated disaster for the Israeli right.

I believe it when I see it. Just wait for the next poll that has the combined right at 64 and Likud on par with B&W.

Such a poll would likely be a disaster for Netanyahu. Lieberman's cohort would be at, what, 6-8 seats? That'd put Netanyahu even more underwater than he was last election.

The last Walla poll already had both Likud and B&W on 30 and Lieberman at 9 with the right at 64. Disappointing for Likud for sure, but I meant to say that I don't expect any significant changes compared to pre-Peretz comment polls.

It's funny how the usual suspects have been framing everything as a huge disaster for Netanyahu from the moment that the first election was called. I don't think current developments are good for Netanyahu (Likud-Kulanu being 9 seats down from the April results in the polls isn't good), but I tend to be more cautious in drawing such conclusions.

[Walmart_shopper]

No, this is just another example of why an election fought on religious issues is an unmitigated disaster for the Israeli right.

I believe it when I see it. Just wait for the next poll that has the combined right at 64 and Likud on par with B&W.

Such a poll would likely be a disaster for Netanyahu. Lieberman's cohort would be at, what, 6-8 seats? That'd put Netanyahu even more underwater than he was last election.

The last Walla poll already had both Likud and B&W on 30 and Lieberman at 9 with the right at 64. Disappointing for Likud for sure, but I meant to say that I don't expect any significant changes compared to pre-Peretz comment polls.

It's funny how the usual suspects have been framing everything as a huge disaster for Netanyahu from the moment that the first election was called. I don't think current developments are good for Netanyahu (Likud-Kulanu being 9 seats down from the April results in the polls isn't good), but I tend to be more cautious in drawing such conclusions.

You're missing the point, then. In an election fought on religious issues Liberman IS the left. He joined the left to bring down the previous government before it was even formed, because of religious issues. In a result where the  left gets 56 and Liberman gets 8, the right gets 56. That's not a majority. That's not a win. What's more, Liberman has even said that he won't support a religious right coalition again.

That's a big reason why talking about right/left on typical Western terms is always problematic. Much of the Likud, Kulanu, and Liberman is very anti-clerical and secular, resembling European Socialist parties. But because only rarely are religious issues a major factor in Israeli elections, we don't talk about right and left that way. A religious issues election doesn't judt change coalition math, it actually totally reorients the whole political spectrum. Because religious and moral issues is perhaps the single area where Israeli actually is a leftist country. This is obviously a disaster for Netanyahu, which is why he made the gay Ohana Justice Minister and came out in support of legalized weed. If he can't get 60 seats without Liberman then he will not be PM and there will not be a right wing government. According to polls, a Liberman-less majority is not happening, especially in a religious issues election.

Tommy Lapid may have died, but in many ways he is more alive today than ever before.

[DavidB.]

Lieberman didn't "join the left" (and if he did, this word means nothing anymore), he just decided to draw a line in the sand and capitalize on the one issue on which a lot of right-wing voters are (and have always been) on his side: religion and state. A smart strategic move. But the left-right axis in Israel remains based on the handling of the conflict and there is nothing remotely left-wing about Lieberman.

Him refusing to join a coalition with the other right-wing parties over religious issues does mean a right-religious coalition lacks a majority, but it doesn't mean the left has a majority: it just means the only way forward seems to be a "national unity" government. But seems to be is really the right phrasing here, because Netanyahu always has some tricks up his sleeve and in early April no one expected a second election over this issue. And the election is still two months away too. None of this is good news for Netanyahu, but once he shifts into election mode anything can still happen and I wouldn't even rule out another Lieberman 180. "Hakol patuah."

[Oryxslayer]

No, this is just another example of why an election fought on religious issues is an unmitigated disaster for the Israeli right.

I believe it when I see it. Just wait for the next poll that has the combined right at 64 and Likud on par with B&W.

Such a poll would likely be a disaster for Netanyahu. Lieberman's cohort would be at, what, 6-8 seats? That'd put Netanyahu even more underwater than he was last election.

The last Walla poll already had both Likud and B&W on 30 and Lieberman at 9 with the right at 64. Disappointing for Likud for sure, but I meant to say that I don't expect any significant changes compared to pre-Peretz comment polls.

It's funny how the usual suspects have been framing everything as a huge disaster for Netanyahu from the moment that the first election was called. I don't think current developments are good for Netanyahu (Likud-Kulanu being 9 seats down from the April results in the polls isn't good), but I tend to be more cautious in drawing such conclusions.

You're missing the point, then. In an election fought on religious issues Liberman IS the left. He joined the left to bring down the previous government before it was even formed, because of religious issues. In a result where the  left gets 56 and Liberman gets 8, the right gets 56. That's not a majority. That's not a win. What's more, Liberman has even said that he won't support a religious right coalition again.

That's a big reason why talking about right/left on typical Western terms is always problematic. Much of the Likud, Kulanu, and Liberman is very anti-clerical and secular, resembling European Socialist parties. But because only rarely are religious issues a major factor in Israeli elections, we don't talk about right and left that way. A religious issues election doesn't judt change coalition math, it actually totally reorients the whole political spectrum. Because religious and moral issues is perhaps the single area where Israeli actually is a leftist country. This is obviously a disaster for Netanyahu, which is why he made the gay Ohana Justice Minister and came out in support of legalized weed. If he can't get 60 seats without Liberman then he will not be PM and there will not be a right wing government. According to polls, a Liberman-less majority is not happening, especially in a religious issues election.

Tommy Lapid may have died, but in many ways he is more alive today than ever before.

This is the right take. Polls consistently show Israelis hold views just as and even more secular than their western european and american counterparts. Its the one issue that Likud loses on because Likud is trapped between a left that embraces things like Gay rights and equal religious recognition at the Kotel, and a far right that can give evangelicals a run for their money. Like these past negotiations saw a coalition of Israeli LGBT 'happy' from the policies Bibi proposed in a meeting with him, but disappointed he still prefers the Haredi. But 9 times out of 10, elections are not faught on religious - secular lines, the economy, security, and of course the Palestinian issue is often far more prominent. Since they are more prominent, I fully suspect that they will return with a vengeance as we head down the pipe towards September.

One interesting thing is that if religious - secular issues becomes the main election issue (unlikely) the Joint list can no longer be considered a party of the opposition. Religious Arabs are part of that 25% that tends to be opposed to any sort of secular laws, along with the Haredi. No faction, both right religious, or secular would have a majority and the end result would still be a some sort of unity govt between Likud-BW-Lieberman.

[urutzizu]

To me it seems Liberman is not just concerned about the Issues of Religion and State itself, like the passage of the draft law, but also pursuing personal vendettas against Deri, Litzman and Netanyahu. If he really just wanted a right wing Netanyahu government, but also secular policies, he could have offered Netanyahu to vote for the religious-right 60-Seat minority Government and then support the Government on security issues, but join the "left" to vote against laws for gender segregation, further Yeshiva funds and vote to block a updated draft law with haredi exemptions, which would, according to the Supreme court judgement, result in the haredim automatically all getting drafted, i.e. his alleged wet dream. Considering how desperate Bibi was, he would have almost certainly accepted.
But he didnt, and therefore effectively forced Bibi into new elections. Why? Well i think because he cares less about the issue of the draft or so itself (because, as has been said, nobody really wants them in the army, and because his party feeds of the fact that this issue is unresolved), but because he wants to ensure that Netanyahu, Litzman and Deri do not sit in Government again. Counting him as secular but someone who will eventually back a Netanyahu government is therefore wrong i think, but he is not a leftist either, of course. He is uncooperative and erratic, and this is how he gets much of his support, so i dont see any incentive to change after the election.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Lieberman definitely doesn't have a vendetta against Litzman or his partner Deri. This is entirely against Netanyahu.

[Famous Mortimer]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond you edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs in really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.

Eh, I think Jewish racism towards Arabs is a HUGE part of the story, and frankly a huge part of the amputated monster that limps around today calling itself "Zionism." But I also agree that it is only a part of the story.

I wouldn’t say that. I want to make clear that I think it’s the Netanyahu government (and like governments before him)  and their enablers that let his ilk run the country that are the horrible people that have made the country a bad place (it used to be decent at certain points), and some people who vote for Netanyahu and his ilk are still good people but with that one flaw, I don’t see this as an issue to point the finger at a good religion and most of its people at all.

It's ridiculous to think that Netanyahu is evil but that Israel was "decent at certain points". These two ideas are incompatible. On the issues that make him evil in your eyes, Netanyahu is not fundamentally different from any previous Israeli leader or any likely future Israel leader. You either like nationalist garrison states (and think Netanyahu is fine as a normal leader of one) or you don't (and think all their leaders have always been inherently bad).

[America Needs R'hllor]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond you edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs in really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.

Eh, I think Jewish racism towards Arabs is a HUGE part of the story, and frankly a huge part of the amputated monster that limps around today calling itself "Zionism." But I also agree that it is only a part of the story.

I wouldn’t say that. I want to make clear that I think it’s the Netanyahu government (and like governments before him)  and their enablers that let his ilk run the country that are the horrible people that have made the country a bad place (it used to be decent at certain points), and some people who vote for Netanyahu and his ilk are still good people but with that one flaw, I don’t see this as an issue to point the finger at a good religion and most of its people at all.

It's ridiculous to think that Netanyahu is evil but that Israel was "decent at certain points". These two ideas are incompatible. On the issues that make him evil in your eyes, Netanyahu is not fundamentally different from any previous Israeli leader or any likely future Israel leader. You either like nationalist garrison states (and think Netanyahu is fine as a normal leader of one) or you don't (and think all their leaders have always been inherently bad).

Or, you could realize that the world isn't black and white- you could still be to the left and think that the early leaders were good because they kept Israel safe during an existential crisis; that some of the latter leaders were brave for seeking peace, which is the only way towards security, while others were bad. Both Netanyahu and Rabin and Begin have done things that European leftists will be "absolutely disgusted" by because they don't always understand the complexities and harshness of the Middle East, and Bagel's analysis is obviously bad. But while the latter were brave enough to secure peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt that made Israel inherently safer, the former made sure to contribute to the stalling of the peace process and kept a status quo that includes Israelis cowering in fear of balloons.

The world is complex. It's not "nationalism bad" or "nationalism good".

[Walmart_shopper]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond you edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs in really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.

Eh, I think Jewish racism towards Arabs is a HUGE part of the story, and frankly a huge part of the amputated monster that limps around today calling itself "Zionism." But I also agree that it is only a part of the story.

I wouldn’t say that. I want to make clear that I think it’s the Netanyahu government (and like governments before him)  and their enablers that let his ilk run the country that are the horrible people that have made the country a bad place (it used to be decent at certain points), and some people who vote for Netanyahu and his ilk are still good people but with that one flaw, I don’t see this as an issue to point the finger at a good religion and most of its people at all.

It's ridiculous to think that Netanyahu is evil but that Israel was "decent at certain points". These two ideas are incompatible. On the issues that make him evil in your eyes, Netanyahu is not fundamentally different from any previous Israeli leader or any likely future Israel leader. You either like nationalist garrison states (and think Netanyahu is fine as a normal leader of one) or you don't (and think all their leaders have always been inherently bad).

Or, you could realize that the world isn't black and white- you could still be to the left and think that the early leaders were good because they kept Israel safe during an existential crisis; that some of the latter leaders were brave for seeking peace, which is the only way towards security, while others were bad. Both Netanyahu and Rabin and Begin have done things that European leftists will be "absolutely disgusted" by because they don't always understand the complexities and harshness of the Middle East, and Bagel's analysis is obviously bad. But while the latter were brave enough to secure peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt that made Israel inherently safer, the former made sure to contribute to the stalling of the peace process and kept a status quo that includes Israelis cowering in fear of balloons.

The world is complex. It's not "nationalism bad" or "nationalism good".

The only thing worse than snobby European liberals projecting their fantasies onto the Middle East is Israeli liberals trying Zionsplain "complex realities" to an "obviously" ignorant Europe. Come on. European leftists aren't morons. They do understand the complexities of the region well. I would argue that some atavistic right winger in Afula who doesn't actually personally know an Arab well or bougie liberal strolling Rothschild is at least as insulated from reality as your mythical dumb European leftist.

It is just that Europeans (and plenty of Israelis) don't believe that regional "harshness" legitimizes the occupation and systemic discrimination of an entire people group. You and hnv1 are both correct that Rabin was far from the peacenik dreamboy he is often envisioned as by liberals all over the world. But I just see that as evidence of how deep Israel's moral rot goes and not that oppression and occupation are therefore justifiable simply because Israeli "leftists" say it is (we don't, by the way).

Israel can never be the free, just, and democratic state it was created to he unless it looks into its heart and realizes that certain events and principles that have been ingrained in our discourse and history as "heroic" are, in fact, deeply destructive and morally problematic. Unless we can celebrate Rabin's peacemaking while deploring his defense of profoundly problematic ethnonationalistic norms, then we are not only harming our democratic character, but we aren't being morally honest, either.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Former Labour leader Shelly Yachimovich retires from politics, won't run for the next Knesset. Great at rhetoric, her takedown of Ben Gvir's brother was glorious, but a pretty negative element of Labour politics. Current Labour list:

1. Peretz
2. Shmuli
3. Shaffir
4. Michaeli

Climbin' Merav.

[Hnv1]

The next Knesset is already better

[Walmart_shopper]

Former Labour leader Shelly Yachimovich retires from politics, won't run for the next Knesset. Great at rhetoric, her takedown of Ben Gvir's brother was glorious, but a pretty negative element of Labour politics. Current Labour list:

1. Peretz
2. Shmuli
3. Shaffir
4. Michaeli

Climbin' Merav.

I actually had to work with Michaeli's office on something and found them extraordinarily approachable, open, and decent. It woyod be a shame for her not to get in.

[Hnv1]

Former Labour leader Shelly Yachimovich retires from politics, won't run for the next Knesset. Great at rhetoric, her takedown of Ben Gvir's brother was glorious, but a pretty negative element of Labour politics. Current Labour list:

1. Peretz
2. Shmuli
3. Shaffir
4. Michaeli

Climbin' Merav.

I actually had to work with Michaeli's office on something and found them extraordinarily approachable, open, and decent. It woyod be a shame for her not to get in.

If labour gets in she gets in.

Barak is actually a road block right now, even if he has some electoral appeal the nobodies around him don't so any union will have to see them forced down the join left list.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Barak is probably cancelled now. As long as his connections to Epstein aren't explained clearly, I'll oppose any union between his party and Labour-Meretz and will have moral qualms voting for a list incuding him.

[brucejoel99]

Former Labour leader Shelly Yachimovich retires from politics, won't run for the next Knesset. Great at rhetoric, her takedown of Ben Gvir's brother was glorious, but a pretty negative element of Labour politics. Current Labour list:

1. Peretz
2. Shmuli
3. Shaffir
4. Michaeli

Climbin' Merav.

Genuinely asking out of curiosity, why do you believe that she was a negative element of Labor politics?