Israeli General Election (2019) II: Electric Boogaloo (17.9.2019)

[Hnv1]

real action was on the streets today...

No one cares, this is not the US, it will die by Sunday.

What do you think the difference is between the US and Israel that causes this difference in reaction?

The existence of the a Palestinian issue is a strong glue for Jewish society, no one drifts too far from the centre. Plus Ethiopians are a tiny community and there’s no real room for comparison with US racial issues.

Israeli society is quite racist and comparisons with American society, especially with regarda to Ethiopians, are appropriate. But the street protests aren't massively newsy simply because Israelis strike and protest far more robustly and frequently than in the US. This kind of "street action" happens almost all the time, although the groups protesting vary. Israeli culture epitomizes the idea that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. It is a very squeeky place.

I disagree, both on the common assumption of deep racism towards Ethiopians and secondly the assumption that Israeli tolerance level is higher because protests are common here. But as I said this topic has been dead since friday

Barak named his party the Israel Democratic Party. Is this officially a reference to the American Democratic Party? I know the Democratic Party in Italy and the Democratic Movement in France both intentionally chose their names as a reference. It's always funny how foreigners have a positive view of the Democratic Party since everyone in America hates it including most of its supporters.

As previously said it's called 'Democratic Israel", I assume that after they merge with Labour and Meretz the entire borefest will be named the Democratic Camp or something.
A reference to the democratic party is pointless, it has no widespread brand recognition. The average Israeli doesn't quite differentiate between the American parties bar for maybe the GOP being considered more pro Israel lately.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Barak is as trust worthy as Judas, he's also hated by the right, and disliked by most on the left.
He will soon come crashing down, they good thing is he's surrounded by some of the biggest ego maniacs of the left so I'm pleased they will all go down together (Bitton, Buskila, Fink, Richter)

Logically speaking this is indeed what we would expect to happen, but as Banter seems to be the main driving force between political developments in all Lands at present, we must consider the outside bet that maybe not, somehow.

[Walmart_shopper]

Barak is as trust worthy as Judas, he's also hated by the right, and disliked by most on the left.
He will soon come crashing down, they good thing is he's surrounded by some of the biggest ego maniacs of the left so I'm pleased they will all go down together (Bitton, Buskila, Fink, Richter)

Logically speaking this is indeed what we would expect to happen, but as Banter seems to be the main driving force between political developments in all Lands at present, we must consider the outside bet that maybe not, somehow.

It's not as though widely disliked and unpopular people in Israeli political life cannot wield political power. Bibi, who is hated by the left and disliked by the right, has won multiple elections with approval ratings as PM in the 30s. Liberman forced a new election despite being widely disliked. Aryeh Deri is perhaps the most reviled political figure in the country and he's interior minister. Who cares if people supposedly don't like Barak? He may very well accomplish what supposedly "likeable" opposition figures have not been able to accomplish on their own, which is unseat Netanyahu. And then evwrybody will like him very much.

[Hnv1]

Barak is as trust worthy as Judas, he's also hated by the right, and disliked by most on the left.
He will soon come crashing down, they good thing is he's surrounded by some of the biggest ego maniacs of the left so I'm pleased they will all go down together (Bitton, Buskila, Fink, Richter)

Logically speaking this is indeed what we would expect to happen, but as Banter seems to be the main driving force between political developments in all Lands at present, we must consider the outside bet that maybe not, somehow.

It's not as though widely disliked and unpopular people in Israeli political life cannot wield political power. Bibi, who is hated by the left and disliked by the right, has won multiple elections with approval ratings as PM in the 30s. Liberman forced a new election despite being widely disliked. Aryeh Deri is perhaps the most reviled political figure in the country and he's interior minister. Who cares if people supposedly don't like Barak? He may very well accomplish what supposedly "likeable" opposition figures have not been able to accomplish on their own, which is unseat Netanyahu. And then evwrybody will like him very much.

Right wing voters have no one but Bibi and a sheepish mentality. Left wing voters who hate Barak would simply vote elsewhere. He himself is not worth 4 seats

[danny]

Meretz decided on their list:

1: Horovitz
2: Zandberg
3: Gilon
4: Freij
5: Raz
6: Rozin

So Rozin drops from 3 to 6, Salalha and Maherta drop out from 4 and 5. Replacing them are incoming leader Horovitz, and Raz who rose from number 7.

[Famous Mortimer]

So the Barak-Epstein connection got called out by Netanyahu's son, then it got reported in Haaretz. Is this going to make him withdraw?

[danny]

So the Barak-Epstein connection got called out by Netanyahu's son, then it got reported in Haaretz. Is this going to make him withdraw?

It got called out by Netanyahu directly, but think this will be treated as normal election attacks and not something that would necessitate Barak's withdrawal. As far as I can tell, no one prominent on the left has called out Barak for this.

[Donerail]

has this been done yet or

[bigic]

* Ehud Barak is looking like this election's wildcard. According to Channel 2, he's trying to form a new party with figures like former IDF Chief Gadi Isenkot, Tzipi Livni, former liberal Likud Minister Dan Meridor and retired general Yair Golan. He's hoping to use this party to unite the entire center-left.

Reminds me of this XKCD comic



https://xkcd.com/927/

[Walmart_shopper]

So the Barak-Epstein connection got called out by Netanyahu's son, then it got reported in Haaretz. Is this going to make him withdraw?

Of course not. Netanyahu's son is a shin-kicker ignored by virtually everyone.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Education Minister and Jewish Home leader Rafi Peretz just said, on live television, that conversion therapy can be done and that he performed it.

I repeat, Israel's Education Minister just admitted to mentally torturing children.

This is a new f**king low.

[DavidB.]

Peretz of course isn't the Prime Minister and I wouldn't say all types of 'conversion therapy' (always needs air quotes) are torture (some of them most definitely are, though), but it's a very bad comment regardless, especially for someone in charge of the education system. Also don't see why this needs to be compared to (and minimized by) completely unrelated issues like the situation in Gaza.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Wow i always knew Israeli politics were crazy, but i didnt know that Rafi Peretz is now Prime Minister.

Lmao why did I write Prime Minister?? I was probably too much in a state of shock

Also i really dont want to go down this rabbit hole again, but if you think that this is anywhere near the worst Human Rights Violation under Netanyahu, worth a massive bold script unlike, you know, those Guys in Gaza, then i have a bridge to sell you.

Yes it's better not to go down that hole, because the Gaza situation is way more complex than this and if you read Israeli Supreme Court decision on the matter it'd help you understand that.

Conversion therapy has been denounced by global health organizations, the Israel Medical Association and the Israeli Psychiatrist Union. It's a clear cut case.

[DavidB.]

I happen to believe that certain Elements of the Israeli left, who think that Conversion therapy, a lack of Gay Marriage or the Haredim not being drafted are the huge moral injustices that the country faces, have a very strange focus.
Jewish gay people are hardly the most underprivileged or "oppressed" people there, lets be serious here.

Perhaps it's a surprise to you, but there's more to Israel than just the conflict.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I happen to believe that certain Elements of the Israeli left, who think that Conversion therapy, a lack of Gay Marriage or the Haredim not being drafted are the huge moral injustices that the country faces, have a very strange focus.
Jewish gay people are hardly the most underprivileged or "oppressed" people there, lets be serious here.

Thank you, but we'll keep demanding equal rights and talking about all the issues in our country and despite what random Europeans say

Another small point: no one would think it even logical to tell Americans they aren't allowed to talk about healthcare, criminal justice reform or trans rights because drones. But we're.... special.

[America Needs R'hllor]

To be honest, what this whole affair proves is that Rafi Peretz is just a very lousy politician. I mean, Smotrich is more homophobic and definitely much more racist than him, but he's able to keep his mouth shut a bit, while still throwing red meat, which makes him popular. Peretz is just... a walking talking gaffe machine.

I hate Itamar Ben Gvir passionately, but a broken clock and all- what he said a few days ago about the Jewish Home really is true. They a very elitist party which sees itself above all other sects of the religious Zionist population, and you can see that in their insistence that Rafi Peretz, as awful a politician as he is, leads any united list.

[Famous Mortimer]

Wow i always knew Israeli politics were crazy, but i didnt know that Rafi Peretz is now Prime Minister.

Lmao why did I write Prime Minister?? I was probably too much in a state of shock

Also i really dont want to go down this rabbit hole again, but if you think that this is anywhere near the worst Human Rights Violation under Netanyahu, worth a massive bold script unlike, you know, those Guys in Gaza, then i have a bridge to sell you.

Yes it's better not to go down that hole, because the Gaza situation is way more complex than this and if you read Israeli Supreme Court decision on the matter it'd help you understand that.

Conversion therapy has been denounced by global health organizations, the Israel Medical Association and the Israeli Psychiatrist Union. It's a clear cut case.

When did these groups denounce conservation therapy? I'm guessing in the last 30 years. The fact that so many psychologists changed their views on homosexuality so rapidly and radically suggests that it is not actually clear cut case at all, what it suggests is that psychologists are extremely susceptible to public opinion.

[Velasco]

Education Minister and Jewish Home leader Rafi Peretz just said, on live television, that conversion therapy can be done and that he performed it.

I repeat, Israel's Prime Minister just admitted to mentally torturing children.

This is a new f**king low.

Wow i always knew Israeli politics were crazy, but i didnt know that Rafi Peretz is now Prime Minister.

Also i really dont want to go down this rabbit hole again, but if you think that this is anywhere near the worst Human Rights Violation under Netanyahu, worth a massive bold script unlike, you know, those Guys in Gaza, then i have a bridge to sell you.

I think establishing such comparisons is not very helpful. They are different situations that have a common link of injustice. A person who believes in freedom and justice should limit to fight against those who violate human rights. It happens that there's a faction within the oppressors of Gaza that it's also against LGTB rights. Let's condemn both injustices instead of downplaying or overplaying one against other, according to our personal sympathies or interests.   

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

I happen to believe that certain Elements of the Israeli left, who think that Conversion therapy, a lack of Gay Marriage or the Haredim not being drafted are the huge moral injustices that the country faces, have a very strange focus.
Jewish gay people are hardly the most underprivileged or "oppressed" people there, lets be serious here.

Yes, because in order to fight injustice against the poor or Palestinians, we should completely ignore injustice and literal child abuse against LGBT people. Okay. 

[Oryxslayer]

This is also an issue very much agreed to by a consensus of israelis, unlike white to do for the Palestinian issue. There was a poll a while back that found 75-25 support for Gay Marriage, and polls for conversion therapy tend to historically track well, perhaps even do better than that number. Its just that the 25% are both politically powerful with their minor parties (both Arab on the left and Haradi on the right), and control the rabbinate who decides who can marry. So its not just that this guy is out of step with the Israeli left, he is probably out of step with most of Likuds voters on the right. That makes this an easy issue to go bat against whereas the palestinian problem is just a unsolvable Gordian Knot.

Same thing with Haredi military service or economic integration, they are extremely popular ideas but just opposed by a vocal and powerful minority. It always is nice when the doing the rght thing in politics won't result in your parties defeat next time people go to the polls, and instead might gain you votes.

[Velasco]

I happen to believe that certain Elements of the Israeli left, who think that Conversion therapy, a lack of Gay Marriage or the Haredim not being drafted are the huge moral injustices that the country faces, have a very strange focus.
Jewish gay people are hardly the most underprivileged or "oppressed" people there, lets be serious here.

Yes, because in order to fight injustice against the poor or Palestinians, we should completely ignore injustice and literal child abuse against LGBT people. Okay. 

This is a distortion, since urutzizu is not saying we must ignore injustice against LGTB people.  I think he was criticizing Parrotguy because he only cares about his group's interests and not about broader injustice. Israeli nationalists tend to support the actions of their government against the Palestinians,  despite they are in constant violation of human rights. However, I think it's better not to establish comparisons. Let's oppose all kinds of injustice and don't forget that Palestinians have the right to exist.

This is also an issue very much agreed to by a consensus of israelis, unlike white to do for the Palestinian issue. There was a poll a while back that found 75-25 support for Gay Marriage, and polls for conversion therapy tend to historically track well, perhaps even do better than that number. Its just that the 25% are both politically powerful with their minor parties (both Arab on the left and Haradi on the right), and control the rabbinate who decides who can marry. So its not just that this guy is out of step with the Israeli left, he is probably out of step with most of Likuds voters on the right. That makes this an easy issue to go bat against whereas the palestinian problem is just a unsolvable Gordian Knot.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

[Famous Mortimer]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

Hahahahhah. This is so dumb.

I'm not saying that because you're anti-Zionist either.

There are plenty of smart anti-Zionists who can intelligently articulate why there should be a one state solution.

The fact that you say Israel is evil but you like Rabin shows you have never studied the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in depth. There is no way an anti-Zionist One Stare who thinks Israel is evil could ever have a positive opinion of Rabin if they knew his record.

This is the equivalent of the type of person who calls migrant detention centers under Trump "concentration camps" but loves Obama even though he ran the same camps.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

Please leave this thread (one of the bright spots of usually quality discussion on Atlas) and take your dumb racist takes elsewhere, thanks

It's really telling that the thread about Israel is the only one filled with these kinds of takes, and also the "YOU CAN ONLY TALK ABOUT (the incredibly complex issue I've boiled down to evil Jews vs poor Arabs)" takes. Thanks for constantly reminding me why I'm a Zionist.

[Hnv1]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond your edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs is really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.