Israeli General Election (2019) II: Electric Boogaloo (17.9.2019)

[Hnv1]

The United Right is now named "To the Right".

I think the proper translation is Rightwards

Unless my English fails me, these things mean the exact same thing. Gil Hoffman (JPost) also came up with "To the Right". But Rightward(s) would be equally correct I suppose.

To the rights denotes to a relation, to the right of, while their name implies a direction so rightward or towards the right seems more fitting.

"To the right" (without "of") clearly denotes a direction and is a synomym for "towards the right" or "rightwards". Nonsensical discussion. Unless you think Beyonce's song is unclear too since it should have been "leftwards"...

I see they apparently prefer to call themselves Yamina in English too, though.

Labour published an economic plan taken from the 50’s or Sci-fi literature. On the other hand they published something. Other parties can’t even cohere on a platform

Hilarious that they are now pushing for an income tax of 65% while only rich people support them, who want them to focus on gender equality and gay rights instead. Flirting with the threshold...

I have a notary license and take my translations very seriously... Beyoncé doesn’t set a good example for proper syntax

I don’t think Labour voters are as rich as you depict them, a lot of those voters left Labour and aren’t coming back

[Brother Jonathan]

A question for someone with a deeper knowledge of Israeli politics than I, but am I correct in understanding that the larger parties (Likud, Blue and White, etc.) would be unwilling to form a coalition with a group like Joint List? I know that Mapai used to run some Arab lists way back, but is it now the case that for the most part the Arab parties are more or less unsuitable governing partners in the eyes of most of the major parties? That's my understating of the situation anyway.

[Donerail]

Don't speak Hebrew, but I am a copy editor for an English newspaper — it should be "To The Right" because the alternatives sound weird in English. You'll see "Rightward" in headlines occasionally, but it's not something people would use in the course of an ordinary conversation. Calling them Yamina nicely side-steps the issue.

[Tintrlvr]

A question for someone with a deeper knowledge of Israeli politics than I, but am I correct in understanding that the larger parties (Likud, Blue and White, etc.) would be unwilling to form a coalition with a group like Joint List? I know that Mapai used to run some Arab lists way back, but is it now the case that for the most part the Arab parties are more or less unsuitable governing partners in the eyes of most of the major parties? That's my understating of the situation anyway.

The Joint List includes a very diverse mix of politicians, including some who support violent anti-Israel and/or extreme Islamist militancy and others who are cross-community doves, Christians and moderate Muslims. Because of the threshold, those groups don't have much choice but to run together even though naturally their politics are quite divergent. Some parties in the Joint List, namely Hadash and Ta'al, could potentially be seen to support a center-left government and might be invited to do so in the right circumstances, though they probably wouldn't be brought into government as part of a coalition, but others, namely Ra'am and Balad, would absolutely never be welcome in any government or as supporters of any government, nor would they want to be perceived among their voters as supporting any government.

However, it seems likely that B&W would prefer to lead a "grand coalition" with Likud as the junior partner over a center-left coalition supported by Hadash and Ta'al if given the choice, so even if the center-left plus Hadash and Ta'al got to 60 seats, you probably wouldn't see Hadash and Ta'al voting with the government. I wouldn't say it could never happen, though.

[Brother Jonathan]

A question for someone with a deeper knowledge of Israeli politics than I, but am I correct in understanding that the larger parties (Likud, Blue and White, etc.) would be unwilling to form a coalition with a group like Joint List? I know that Mapai used to run some Arab lists way back, but is it now the case that for the most part the Arab parties are more or less unsuitable governing partners in the eyes of most of the major parties? That's my understating of the situation anyway.

The Joint List includes a very diverse mix of politicians, including some who support violent anti-Israel and/or extreme Islamist militancy and others who are cross-community doves, Christians and moderate Muslims. Because of the threshold, those groups don't have much choice but to run together even though naturally their politics are quite divergent. Some parties in the Joint List, namely Hadash and Ta'al, could potentially be seen to support a center-left government and might be invited to do so in the right circumstances, though they probably wouldn't be brought into government as part of a coalition, but others, namely Ra'am and Balad, would absolutely never be welcome in any government or as supporters of any government, nor would they want to be perceived among their voters as supporting any government.

However, it seems likely that B&W would prefer to lead a "grand coalition" with Likud as the junior partner over a center-left coalition supported by Hadash and Ta'al if given the choice, so even if the center-left plus Hadash and Ta'al got to 60 seats, you probably wouldn't see Hadash and Ta'al voting with the government. I wouldn't say it could never happen, though.

That's about what I figured, especially as Joint List is so diverse as you noted. It also seems unlikely to me that Blue and White would want to join with Joint List to form government because it would alienate the parties of the right they would also need. Basically it seems like no government can be formed in Isreal at this point without some support from the right/religious parties.

[Hnv1]

A question for someone with a deeper knowledge of Israeli politics than I, but am I correct in understanding that the larger parties (Likud, Blue and White, etc.) would be unwilling to form a coalition with a group like Joint List? I know that Mapai used to run some Arab lists way back, but is it now the case that for the most part the Arab parties are more or less unsuitable governing partners in the eyes of most of the major parties? That's my understating of the situation anyway.

Mapai’s “Arab parties” were faux parties organized by military governors and controlled by force, soon after the military rule over Israeli Arabs ended in 66 they were done.

Peres in 1990 tried, and Rabin in 95 succeeded in having a confidence and supply agreement with Hadash and Madaa. But the participation of Balad and the radicals in Hadash make it unlikely for a similar arrangement nowadays, especially without a clear left wing government.
I assume Tibi might go along if it suits the PA interests

[Hnv1]

Haim Katz (Likud) will resign from the government due to corruption charges.

Deri will face corruption charges soon. So will Litzman.

Basically most of Bibi’s bloc would want an “immunity” government.


Bibi reportedly marked Ron Dramer (ambassador to Washington) and Yossi Cohen (head of the mossad) as possible successors. The move is superficial is neither can be elected PM anytime soon. But he’s signaling the Likud big dogs what he thinks of them (quite rightly)

[Walmart_shopper]

Haim Katz (Likud) will resign from the government due to corruption charges.

Deri will face corruption charges soon. So will Litzman.

Basically most of Bibi’s bloc would want an “immunity” government.


Bibi reportedly marked Ron Dramer (ambassador to Washington) and Yossi Cohen (head of the mossad) as possible successors. The move is superficial is neither can be elected PM anytime soon. But he’s signaling the Likud big dogs what he thinks of them (quite rightly)

If anyone wanted evidence of why Israel is basically an Arab country with a Jewish demographic majority, the fact that tribal identity trumps even the most grotesque forms of corruption for so many voters would be it. Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

[Hnv1]

Haim Katz (Likud) will resign from the government due to corruption charges.

Deri will face corruption charges soon. So will Litzman.

Basically most of Bibi’s bloc would want an “immunity” government.


Bibi reportedly marked Ron Dramer (ambassador to Washington) and Yossi Cohen (head of the mossad) as possible successors. The move is superficial is neither can be elected PM anytime soon. But he’s signaling the Likud big dogs what he thinks of them (quite rightly)

If anyone wanted evidence of why Israel is basically an Arab country with a Jewish demographic majority, the fact that tribal identity trumps even the most grotesque forms of corruption for so many voters would be it. Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

Hate to break it to you but B&W and Labour voters aren’t any better, one might even argue its ingrained in our Jewish culture

[DL]

Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

More often than not it has been Jews in North America and Western Europe who have been leading figures behind the advent of liberal democracy

[DavidB.]

I gotta say it: this sex segregated public event in Afula is a massive embarrassment and Shaked (!!) defending it is giving me a major pause in supporting the religious right; don't think this would have happened a couple of years ago. Lieberman suddenly doesn't look so bad anymore.

[Famous Mortimer]

Haim Katz (Likud) will resign from the government due to corruption charges.

Deri will face corruption charges soon. So will Litzman.

Basically most of Bibi’s bloc would want an “immunity” government.


Bibi reportedly marked Ron Dramer (ambassador to Washington) and Yossi Cohen (head of the mossad) as possible successors. The move is superficial is neither can be elected PM anytime soon. But he’s signaling the Likud big dogs what he thinks of them (quite rightly)

If anyone wanted evidence of why Israel is basically an Arab country with a Jewish demographic majority, the fact that tribal identity trumps even the most grotesque forms of corruption for so many voters would be it. Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

Ashkenazis better than Arabs and Mizrahis

but Africans and Arabs are better than Italians

Trying to keep track of the walmart shopper ethnic hierarchy is hard

[Walmart_shopper]

Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

More often than not it has been Jews in North America and Western Europe who have been leading figures behind the advent of liberal democracy

Yes, and it is precisely those same North American and American Jews experiencing a massive rift rift with Israel right now over issues like democracy and liberalism. So you're more or less proving my point.

You aren't arguing that the creators of liberal democracy were Haredim, of course (I hope).

[Walmart_shopper]

Haim Katz (Likud) will resign from the government due to corruption charges.

Deri will face corruption charges soon. So will Litzman.

Basically most of Bibi’s bloc would want an “immunity” government.


Bibi reportedly marked Ron Dramer (ambassador to Washington) and Yossi Cohen (head of the mossad) as possible successors. The move is superficial is neither can be elected PM anytime soon. But he’s signaling the Likud big dogs what he thinks of them (quite rightly)

If anyone wanted evidence of why Israel is basically an Arab country with a Jewish demographic majority, the fact that tribal identity trumps even the most grotesque forms of corruption for so many voters would be it. Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

Hate to break it to you but B&W and Labour voters aren’t any better.

Well, I've been arguing basically exactly that for however many pages this thread has gone on.

[cp]

Haim Katz (Likud) will resign from the government due to corruption charges.

Deri will face corruption charges soon. So will Litzman.

Basically most of Bibi’s bloc would want an “immunity” government.


Bibi reportedly marked Ron Dramer (ambassador to Washington) and Yossi Cohen (head of the mossad) as possible successors. The move is superficial is neither can be elected PM anytime soon. But he’s signaling the Likud big dogs what he thinks of them (quite rightly)

If anyone wanted evidence of why Israel is basically an Arab country with a Jewish demographic majority, the fact that tribal identity trumps even the most grotesque forms of corruption for so many voters would be it. Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

Hate to break it to you but B&W and Labour voters aren’t any better.

Well, I've been arguing basically exactly that for however many pages this thread has gone on.

The same could be said of conservative party supporters' attitudes in the US and UK, too. The Haridim example in particular applies quite well to the gobsmacking hypocrisy of US evangelical Christians, who have condoned in Trump all the behaviour they claim to be on a crusade against.

[Walmart_shopper]

Haim Katz (Likud) will resign from the government due to corruption charges.

Deri will face corruption charges soon. So will Litzman.

Basically most of Bibi’s bloc would want an “immunity” government.


Bibi reportedly marked Ron Dramer (ambassador to Washington) and Yossi Cohen (head of the mossad) as possible successors. The move is superficial is neither can be elected PM anytime soon. But he’s signaling the Likud big dogs what he thinks of them (quite rightly)

If anyone wanted evidence of why Israel is basically an Arab country with a Jewish demographic majority, the fact that tribal identity trumps even the most grotesque forms of corruption for so many voters would be it. Haredim and most right wing voters not only do not value Western democracy, but most actually outright mock it as sissified (and even goyish) liberalism that fails in a region where only brute force supposedly works.

Hate to break it to you but B&W and Labour voters aren’t any better.

Well, I've been arguing basically exactly that for however many pages this thread has gone on.

The same could be said of conservative party supporters' attitudes in the US and UK, too. The Haridim example in particular applies quite well to the gobsmacking hypocrisy of US evangelical Christians, who have condoned in Trump all the behaviour they claim to be on a crusade against.

To a much leaser extent, though. In Israel it's a dogmatic and even religiously principled opposition to democracy. In America most right wingers generally accept the tenets of democratic politics, it's just that they now realize that there is no "silent majority" and that most Americans simply oppose their political goals and values. So a true embrace pf democracy would doom them, leaving them with a pragmatic shrug at democratic norms. In Israel it's pure dogmatism and not pragmatism. They believe we are in existential crisis and that democratic patty-cake is either immoral or stupid (and usually both).

My impression is thst in the UK only the 25 percent of the country that are hard Brexiteers are truly anti-liberal.

[Famous Mortimer]

Can someone post the first 10 or 15 people on the Labor list in English? Can't seem to find it anywhere on the internet.

[danny]

Can someone post the first 10 or 15 people on the Labor list in English? Can't seem to find it anywhere on the internet.

1- Amir Peretz
2- Orly Levi (Gesher)
3- Itzik Shmuli
4- Merav Michaeli
5- Omer Bar Lev
6- Revital Sweid
7- Haggai Reznik (Gesher)
8- Eran Hermoni
9- Saed Salah
10- Carmen Elmakayes (Gesher)
11- Yehiel Bar
12- Gavri Bargil
13- Michal Biran
14- Ahsan Halaila
15- Amir Ritov

[bigic]

https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1163108602615345152

[Oryxslayer]

https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1163108602615345152

Big (?) The Lieberman voters aren't exactly the same as B&W and vice versa. Might put off potential voters that were available to both parties.

[DavidB.]

Lieberman tries to downplay the significance of the electoral alliance. Actually funny:

Yesh Atid officials planned to ditch Blue and White for joint run with Liberman
Top officials in the Yesh Atid party concocted a plan last month to break off from the Blue and White electoral alliance and instead run with Avigdor Liberman’s Yisael Beytenu on a secular slate, party sources tell Zman Yisrael, The Times of Israel’s Hebrew-language sister site.

According to polls commissioned by party officials, a Yesh Atid-Yisrael Beytenu joint list would pick up 26-27 seats in the elections, more than any other party in the surveys. Liberman, sources close to Yesh Atid leader Yair Lapid said, was aware of the idea and did not reject it out of hand.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/yesh-atid-officials-planned-to-ditch-blue-and-white-for-joint-run-with-liberman/

[Oryxslayer]

I mean this is a bunch of spin, Lieberman would love to finally give Bibi the dagger. From a different Times of Israel piece.

Liberman repeated his call for a unity government in the Kan interview Sunday. “The first side that commits to a unity government — we will support him. We won’t join any narrow government, not Netanyahu’s and not Gantz’s,” he vowed.

[Walmart_shopper]

https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1163108602615345152

Actually, it's quite possible that the entire last four months were perfectly choreographed by Libermwn and Lapid at their Vienna meeting that they deny ever happened. Liberman and Lapid basically decided to force massive (and popular) changes to the nature of religion and state in Israel, leaving the Gaza and security questions to the side just long enough to cement secularism in law and get Bibi out of office.

When Blue and White officials whine about Lapid's secularist rhetoric, I wonder if either they're really bad at politics or if they just aren't in the loop. It's pretty clear that something has been in the works and none of it is good for Netanyahu and the Haredim. Ironically, at this point Bibi and the Haredim have sealed their fates together, which now looks like a really dumb choice.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Trouble is how can a non-likud, non-haredi government even form? It's not like Lieberman and the Arabs can realistically be in the same government.

[DavidB.]

Trouble is how can a non-likud, non-haredi government even form? It's not like Lieberman and the Arabs can realistically be in the same government.

It would be Likud-BW-Yisrael Beiteinu without Bibi.