11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[Fuzzy Bear]

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Its not that they think its ok. Its that they don't think its murder. Just because someone causes the death of a "human" doesn't mean they committed murder. Most people who have ever lived in a Western society doesn't think abortion automatically is killing a person or that a fetus automatically has a right not to be aborted. That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be illegal just because of that but I am not impressed by "abortion is murder" unless you think any matter that has the potential the generate or has ever generate and consciousness is a person and that any killing of anyone is murder. Maybe you think killing anything under any circumstances is murder?

OK, tell me this:  What could possibly be wrong with abortion if it is not murder (i. e. the taking of innocent human life)?

Please tell me why one would not be OK with abortion if they didn't believe it to be murder.

[Slander and/or Libel]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

It's not "her rapist's baby" though.  That's my point!  It's a destructive framing.  How we respond to things depends on how we frame them, the stories we tell about them:   Is your pregnancy primarily a reminder of a criminal act committed by someone who took power over you?   Or is it reminder of your own power as a nurturer of new life, a power of a kind your rapist will never have?  

I don't deny at all that the choice element is relevant in this process.  But someone please explain to me, without relying on the same old political platitudes and talking points, how this ever justifies taking a human life?

Tell me how it justifies forcing a woman to be an incubator of a life she never asked for, and which will always remind her of the horrific violation that put it into her.

[7,052,770]

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Its not that they think its ok. Its that they don't think its murder. Just because someone causes the death of a "human" doesn't mean they committed murder. Most people who have ever lived in a Western society doesn't think abortion automatically is killing a person or that a fetus automatically has a right not to be aborted. That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be illegal just because of that but I am not impressed by "abortion is murder" unless you think any matter that has the potential the generate or has ever generate and consciousness is a person and that any killing of anyone is murder. Maybe you think killing anything under any circumstances is murder?

OK, tell me this:  What could possibly be wrong with abortion if it is not murder (i. e. the taking of innocent human life)?

Please tell me why one would not be OK with abortion if they didn't believe it to be murder.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the "obviously 100% legal if not murder / obviously 100% illegal if murder" seems valid to me.

I'm guessing the middle ground is for people who aren't sure whether it's murder or not? Or else just wanting to be a Moderate Hero?

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

It's not "her rapist's baby" though.  That's my point!  It's a destructive framing.  How we respond to things depends on how we frame them, the stories we tell about them:   Is your pregnancy primarily a reminder of a criminal act committed by someone who took power over you?   Or is it reminder of your own power as a nurturer of new life, a power of a kind your rapist will never have?  

I don't deny at all that the choice element is relevant in this process.  But someone please explain to me, without relying on the same old political platitudes and talking points, how this ever justifies taking a human life?

You keep making rape sounding like this awe inspiring beautiful well of life, a journey of self discoveries and the powers of the human spirit! Almost like a motivational talk, heck if I did not know any better, I would say d@mn, this shua guy is fleek, I wanna be raped now!

[Fuzzy Bear]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

It's not "her rapist's baby" though.  That's my point!  It's a destructive framing.  How we respond to things depends on how we frame them, the stories we tell about them:   Is your pregnancy primarily a reminder of a criminal act committed by someone who took power over you?   Or is it reminder of your own power as a nurturer of new life, a power of a kind your rapist will never have?  

I don't deny at all that the choice element is relevant in this process.  But someone please explain to me, without relying on the same old political platitudes and talking points, how this ever justifies taking a human life?

Tell me how it justifies forcing a woman to be an incubator of a life she never asked for, and which will always remind her of the horrific violation that put it into her.

It's justified because the unborn child is every bit as human and every bit as innocent as the 11 year old victim, and I believe that the 11 year old victim knows that deep in her heart.  Not every horrible thing can go away, but some horrible things are made more horrible by solutions that only compound the problem.

That's not the reason I oppose abortion.  I oppose abortion because it is the killing of innocent human life.  But that is, I believe, how the story ends up for many who have abortions, and I've met more than one woman who has been as traumatized by the abortion as she was by the unwanted pregnancy.

[7,052,770]

It's justified because the unborn child is every bit as human and every bit as innocent as the 11 year old victim, and I believe that the 11 year old victim knows that deep in her heart.  Not every horrible thing can go away, but some horrible things are made more horrible by solutions that only compound the problem.

That's not the reason I oppose abortion.  I oppose abortion because it is the killing of innocent human life.  But that is, I believe, how the story ends up for many who have abortions, and I've met more than one woman who has been as traumatized by the abortion as she was by the unwanted pregnancy.

There's literally no basis for this assertion. You're acting like pro-choice people are way way deep down secretly against abortion, and let me tell you that is completely, utterly false.

Yes, there are millions and millions of Americans who "know" (believe would be the more appropriate word on both sides) that the grouping of cells that doesn't even resemble a baby yet is a person, and millions and millions of Americans who "know" that it is not.

[Person Man]

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Its not that they think its ok. Its that they don't think its murder. Just because someone causes the death of a "human" doesn't mean they committed murder. Most people who have ever lived in a Western society doesn't think abortion automatically is killing a person or that a fetus automatically has a right not to be aborted. That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be illegal just because of that but I am not impressed by "abortion is murder" unless you think any matter that has the potential the generate or has ever generate and consciousness is a person and that any killing of anyone is murder. Maybe you think killing anything under any circumstances is murder?

OK, tell me this:  What could possibly be wrong with abortion if it is not murder (i. e. the taking of innocent human life)?

Please tell me why one would not be OK with abortion if they didn't believe it to be murder.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the "obviously 100% legal if not murder / obviously 100% illegal if murder" seems valid to me.

I'm guessing the middle ground is for people who aren't sure whether it's murder or not? Or else just wanting to be a Moderate Hero?

No. It’s simply that unless there is a certainty beyond a reasonable doubt that it is murder then it’s not murder. Although I think abortion should be legal, I can be convinced that it could be made a misdemeanor or felony for another reason besides it being the same as murder. However, I cannot think of anything right now. At least not beyond other things that though are sexually immoral are not
illegal.

 Then there are reasonable Antiabortionists like Bagel. He says he has been compelled to that position because he finds abortion where there is no clear need for an abortion to be a form of sexual
immorality. At least the Instances he cites in his position are either acts of sexual immorality, extreme and habitual negligence, or hypocritical acts of violence and fraud.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Its not that they think its ok. Its that they don't think its murder. Just because someone causes the death of a "human" doesn't mean they committed murder. Most people who have ever lived in a Western society doesn't think abortion automatically is killing a person or that a fetus automatically has a right not to be aborted. That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be illegal just because of that but I am not impressed by "abortion is murder" unless you think any matter that has the potential the generate or has ever generate and consciousness is a person and that any killing of anyone is murder. Maybe you think killing anything under any circumstances is murder?

OK, tell me this:  What could possibly be wrong with abortion if it is not murder (i. e. the taking of innocent human life)?

Please tell me why one would not be OK with abortion if they didn't believe it to be murder.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the "obviously 100% legal if not murder / obviously 100% illegal if murder" seems valid to me.

I'm guessing the middle ground is for people who aren't sure whether it's murder or not? Or else just wanting to be a Moderate Hero?

No. It’s simply that unless there is a certainty beyond a reasonable doubt that it is murder then it’s not murder. Although I think abortion should be legal, I can be convinced that it could be made a misdemeanor or felony for another reason besides it being the same as murder. However, I cannot think of anything right now. At least not beyond other things that though are sexually immoral are not
illegal.

 Then there are reasonable Antiabortionists like Bagel. He says he has been compelled to that position because he finds abortion where there is no clear need for an abortion to be a form of sexual
immorality. At least the Instances he cites in his position are either acts of sexual immorality, extreme and habitual negligence, or hypocritical acts of violence and fraud.

Oh another thing, the life of the mother always comes first, and mental health is every bit as legitimate medical reason to have an abortion as physical, abortion is not murder (I view it as destruction of a pre-human, while important and bad, not like killing someone else), I don’t think women should be punished in any form, just providers for the ones that I don’t think are exempt

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

It's not "her rapist's baby" though.  That's my point!  It's a destructive framing.  How we respond to things depends on how we frame them, the stories we tell about them:   Is your pregnancy primarily a reminder of a criminal act committed by someone who took power over you?   Or is it reminder of your own power as a nurturer of new life, a power of a kind your rapist will never have?  

I don't deny at all that the choice element is relevant in this process.  But someone please explain to me, without relying on the same old political platitudes and talking points, how this ever justifies taking a human life?

Tell me how it justifies forcing a woman to be an incubator of a life she never asked for, and which will always remind her of the horrific violation that put it into her.

It's justified because the unborn child is every bit as human and every bit as innocent as the 11 year old victim, and I believe that the 11 year old victim knows that deep in her heart.  Not every horrible thing can go away, but some horrible things are made more horrible by solutions that only compound the problem.

That's not the reason I oppose abortion.  I oppose abortion because it is the killing of innocent human life.  But that is, I believe, how the story ends up for many who have abortions, and I've met more than one woman who has been as traumatized by the abortion as she was by the unwanted pregnancy.

1.

2. Medically this is factually incorrect, there is no debate or opinion, that’s the way lol

3. Even if you are leveling on the spiritual platitude, how can you just believe or have a hunch that this girl has the same kind of umm, interesting spiritual beliefs that you have? She may, she may not, but why even make an inkling of guess that oh so happens to be conveniently aligned with your position of forcing her to be an oven from rape? Oh maybe she might have sinful beliefs about what should happened next as most 11 year olds are simply too dense to realize that children conceived from rape are God-given presents, duh, buuuuut, I think that deep inside she knows that any other action besides I must carry the rapist’s baby ( this is a f$cking fact, it is what it is) is sinful! Keep in mind I am largely a pro life person, I don’t believe that abortion should be legal outside of rape, incest, overall maternal health, and special circumstances, and it is a decent sized sin.

[Person Man]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

It's not "her rapist's baby" though.  That's my point!  It's a destructive framing.  How we respond to things depends on how we frame them, the stories we tell about them:   Is your pregnancy primarily a reminder of a criminal act committed by someone who took power over you?   Or is it reminder of your own power as a nurturer of new life, a power of a kind your rapist will never have?  

I don't deny at all that the choice element is relevant in this process.  But someone please explain to me, without relying on the same old political platitudes and talking points, how this ever justifies taking a human life?

Tell me how it justifies forcing a woman to be an incubator of a life she never asked for, and which will always remind her of the horrific violation that put it into her.

It's justified because the unborn child is every bit as human and every bit as innocent as the 11 year old victim, and I believe that the 11 year old victim knows that deep in her heart.  Not every horrible thing can go away, but some horrible things are made more horrible by solutions that only compound the problem.

That's not the reason I oppose abortion.  I oppose abortion because it is the killing of innocent human life.  But that is, I believe, how the story ends up for many who have abortions, and I've met more than one woman who has been as traumatized by the abortion as she was by the unwanted pregnancy.

1.

2. Medically this is factually incorrect, there is no debate or opinion, that’s the way lol

3. Even if you are leveling on the spiritual platitude, how can you just believe or have a hunch that this girl has the same kind of umm, interesting spiritual beliefs that you have? She may, she may not, but why even make an inkling of guess that oh so happens to be conveniently aligned with your position of forcing her to be an oven from rape? Oh maybe she might have sinful beliefs about what should happened next as most 11 year olds are simply too dense to realize that children conceived from rape are God-given presents, duh, buuuuut, I think that deep inside she knows that any other action besides I must carry the rapist’s baby ( this is a f$cking fact, it is what it is) is sinful! Keep in mind I am largely a pro life person, I don’t believe that abortion should be legal outside of rape, incest, overall maternal health, and special circumstances, and it is a decent sized sin.

Like I said, you can think abortion should be illegal because it's sexual immorality and not murder.
The only problem between banning abortion and 85 to 90% of circumstances is that how would you prove that those circumstances apply in time and how wouod providing work?  Would you just be OK with people filing for abortion and then decision would have to be rendered in three days or something and then it would have to be carried out three days after that? And it would have to happen on the government dime because private facilities wouldn’t just have all that abortion equipment laying around for that few abortions. Perhaps you would have it happen in the state forensic hospital or
something? Otherwise people are just going to go to drug dealers or travel just like it was if there were no exceptions. That may be something you’re comfortable with and though I am not, I think it could be a reasonable compromise at the most conservative end.
Something like this could work in a place like Alabama just like a European style law that they have in Ireland or France now could work for New York or Massachusetts.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

It's not "her rapist's baby" though.  That's my point!  It's a destructive framing.  How we respond to things depends on how we frame them, the stories we tell about them:   Is your pregnancy primarily a reminder of a criminal act committed by someone who took power over you?   Or is it reminder of your own power as a nurturer of new life, a power of a kind your rapist will never have?  

I don't deny at all that the choice element is relevant in this process.  But someone please explain to me, without relying on the same old political platitudes and talking points, how this ever justifies taking a human life?

Tell me how it justifies forcing a woman to be an incubator of a life she never asked for, and which will always remind her of the horrific violation that put it into her.

It's justified because the unborn child is every bit as human and every bit as innocent as the 11 year old victim, and I believe that the 11 year old victim knows that deep in her heart.  Not every horrible thing can go away, but some horrible things are made more horrible by solutions that only compound the problem.

That's not the reason I oppose abortion.  I oppose abortion because it is the killing of innocent human life.  But that is, I believe, how the story ends up for many who have abortions, and I've met more than one woman who has been as traumatized by the abortion as she was by the unwanted pregnancy.

1.

2. Medically this is factually incorrect, there is no debate or opinion, that’s the way lol

3. Even if you are leveling on the spiritual platitude, how can you just believe or have a hunch that this girl has the same kind of umm, interesting spiritual beliefs that you have? She may, she may not, but why even make an inkling of guess that oh so happens to be conveniently aligned with your position of forcing her to be an oven from rape? Oh maybe she might have sinful beliefs about what should happened next as most 11 year olds are simply too dense to realize that children conceived from rape are God-given presents, duh, buuuuut, I think that deep inside she knows that any other action besides I must carry the rapist’s baby ( this is a f$cking fact, it is what it is) is sinful! Keep in mind I am largely a pro life person, I don’t believe that abortion should be legal outside of rape, incest, overall maternal health, and special circumstances, and it is a decent sized sin.

Like I said, you can think abortion should be illegal because it's sexual immorality and not murder.
The only problem between banning abortion and 85 to 90% of circumstances is that how would you prove that those circumstances apply in time and how wouod providing work?  Would you just be OK with people filing for abortion and then decision would have to be rendered in three days or something and then it would have to be carried out three days after that? And it would have to happen on the government dime because private facilities wouldn’t just have all that abortion equipment laying around for that few abortions. Perhaps you would have it happen in the state forensic hospital or
something? Otherwise people are just going to go to drug dealers or travel just like it was if there were no exceptions. That may be something you’re comfortable with and though I am not, I think it could be a reasonable compromise at the most conservative end.
Something like this could work in a place like Alabama just like a European style law that they have in Ireland or France now could work for New York or Massachusetts.

What do you mean in time? For me there is no rush, if an abortion is deemed to be needed, I believe it can occur at basically any point during the pregnancy. If the mother develops a serious medical condition like in the third trimester, and the fetus is not viable, then yeah, I don't have a problem with an abortion there. I am a democrat too lol, so I would want to government subsidize planned parenthood to keep running all of their services, like we are now, and make sure they have everything they need to handle abortions normally. Yeah, as long as they meet the exemption requirements (all it would really take would be a doctor's note for a medical reason, or like a police record for a violation reason, or either for something else) and then yeah approved. Yeah, that's fine, I am fine with things happening on the government dime, I am a dem no I would keep planned parenthood open and running but limit their abilities to perform abortions to just the exempted ones. Umm, I am definitely not comfortable with that lol, and I would try to take reasonable steps to try and make sure that does not happened. If women are exempted and cannot afford the abortion, yes I would want the government to subsidize it in a safe medical environment.

[Badger]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

Few people would say that a zygote or fetus isn't living oh, much the same way few would deny the biological fact that a sperm cell or blood cells aren't living entities.

The distinction anti-abortion people Miss isn't whether or not a zygote or fetus is alive, but whether or not to make it a citizen.

There is a difference between "making it a citizen" and acknowledging that it is a human being. 

I will gladly accept your terminology and equally gladly dispute whether a zygote is a "human being".

[Statilius the Epicurean]

OK, tell me this:  What could possibly be wrong with abortion if it is not murder (i. e. the taking of innocent human life)?

Please tell me why one would not be OK with abortion if they didn't believe it to be murder.

Because there are lots of things which are wrong and illegal but aren't murder? Isn't this obvious? Animal cruelty is illegal, but not because we think animals have personhood.

[Fuzzy Bear]

OK, tell me this:  What could possibly be wrong with abortion if it is not murder (i. e. the taking of innocent human life)?

Please tell me why one would not be OK with abortion if they didn't believe it to be murder.

Because there are lots of things which are wrong and illegal but aren't murder? Isn't this obvious? Animal cruelty is illegal, but not because we think animals have personhood.

OK, let me be more specific:  What is wrong with abortion if it isn't murder?  I'm serious here.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

OK, tell me this:  What could possibly be wrong with abortion if it is not murder (i. e. the taking of innocent human life)?

Please tell me why one would not be OK with abortion if they didn't believe it to be murder.

Because there are lots of things which are wrong and illegal but aren't murder? Isn't this obvious? Animal cruelty is illegal, but not because we think animals have personhood.

OK, let me be more specific:  What is wrong with abortion if it isn't murder?  I'm serious here.

A treasured pastime that bring out the kid in you.

[Fuzzy Bear]

https://www.lifenews.com/2016/12/16/i-was-conceived-in-rape-but-im-glad-i-wasnt-aborted-i-did-not-deserve-death-for-my-fathers-crime/?fbclid=IwAR3S2JjL6YyTv_WWvFM7nf1oQmkJQN_LXR-tIJN85oqEYDr2kXFpc-nfSJo

So what would you say to this woman who was conceived in rape?



I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

[Beet]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

[Crumpets]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

"I'm sure you're thankful to your parents for choosing to raise you. This does not give the government the power to tell everyone else they must make the same choice."

[Fuzzy Bear]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

[Karpatsky]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

I don't understand why there's such a debate on what the fetus constitutes at any given point, to be honest, as I don't see this as particularly relevant. Had I connected myself to you as you exist today for some sort of life-sustaining procedure like a blood transfusion, I would have the right to disconnect myself for any reason, even if it resulted in your death, simply because you have no inherent right to use my organs beyond what I allow. Restricting abortion ability like this is in my view morally comparable to forced organ transplants.

[Person Man]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

I don't understand why there's such a debate on what the fetus constitutes at any given point, to be honest, as I don't see this as particularly relevant. Had I connected myself to you as you exist today for some sort of life-sustaining procedure like a blood transfusion, I would have the right to disconnect myself for any reason, even if it resulted in your death, simply because you have no inherent right to use my organs beyond what I allow. Restricting abortion ability like this is in my view morally comparable to forced organ transplants.

You need to listen to the universe song then.
Would it be OK if there was some sort Eminent Domain? Basically every knocked up person gets Medicare and 1000 a month under the condition that they go to the church clinic every week. Every person who has at least a 1% chance of getting pregnant each time during unprotected sex gets Medicaid.

[Karpatsky]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

I don't understand why there's such a debate on what the fetus constitutes at any given point, to be honest, as I don't see this as particularly relevant. Had I connected myself to you as you exist today for some sort of life-sustaining procedure like a blood transfusion, I would have the right to disconnect myself for any reason, even if it resulted in your death, simply because you have no inherent right to use my organs beyond what I allow. Restricting abortion ability like this is in my view morally comparable to forced organ transplants.

You need to listen to the universe song then.
Would it be OK if there was some sort Eminent Domain? Basically every knocked up person gets Medicare and 1000 a month under the condition that they go to the church clinic every week. Every person who has at least a 1% chance of getting pregnant each time during unprotected sex gets Medicaid.

I don't understand.

[Person Man]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

I don't understand why there's such a debate on what the fetus constitutes at any given point, to be honest, as I don't see this as particularly relevant. Had I connected myself to you as you exist today for some sort of life-sustaining procedure like a blood transfusion, I would have the right to disconnect myself for any reason, even if it resulted in your death, simply because you have no inherent right to use my organs beyond what I allow. Restricting abortion ability like this is in my view morally comparable to forced organ transplants.

You need to listen to the universe song then.
Would it be OK if there was some sort Eminent Domain? Basically every knocked up person gets Medicare and 1000 a month under the condition that they go to the church clinic every week. Every person who has at least a 1% chance of getting pregnant each time during unprotected sex gets Medicaid.

I don't understand.

That if you own yourself and the government wants to alienate then the government must compensate

[Beet]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

Obviously I was referring to birth as a shorthand for coming into being. To the extent that there is consciousness before birth, an abortion should not be allowed after that point.

[Person Man]

I mean, she's a real person; what do you say to her?

I would say: You matter because you were born. Had you never been born, it would not have been an injustice. The same goes for me and everyone else.

At least you're honest about that, but she would have suffered painful death.

I was a human being before I was born.  Was it open season on me then?

Obviously I was referring to birth as a shorthand for coming into being. To the extent that there is consciousness before birth, an abortion should not be allowed after that point.

He thinks any measure to prevent a child after the last conscious act to create that child constitutes killing a person and cannot be justified, even theoretically.