11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[Slander and/or Libel]

1. A person's psychological well-being is not of lesser importance, but determinations of well being are necessarily more subject to value systems and assumptions about the meaning of human flourishing.  I do not trust any mental health determination which would find abortion compatible with promoting human flourishing of the person undergoing the abortion.

So you're just asserting that no amount of evidence can convince you that having a child is not right for some people.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

1. A person's psychological well-being is not of lesser importance, but determinations of well being are necessarily more subject to value systems and assumptions about the meaning of human flourishing.  I do not trust any mental health determination which would find abortion compatible with promoting human flourishing of the person undergoing the abortion.

So you're just asserting that no amount of evidence can convince you that having a child is not right for some people.

No amount of evidence can convince me that someone is better off with their child dead, killed inside of them.

[afleitch]

1. Does an 'individual medical basis' include psychological health reasons which are considered as valid by medical professionals as part of a persons overall health and wellbeing or are those 'suspended' if a woman is pregnant? If so, do you consider a persons psychological wellbeing as of lesser importance and why.

2. In what way is consent needed/required to give birth?

1. A person's psychological well-being is not of lesser importance, but determinations of well being are necessarily more subject to value systems and assumptions about the meaning of human flourishing.  I do not trust any mental health determination which would find abortion compatible with promoting human flourishing of the person undergoing the abortion.

2. Nature does not allow us to say that consent is required to give birth in the same way as for sex.  Our human social abilities thankfully allow us to make the act of sex dependent upon mutual consent, and to call violations of this evil.  We do not have such direct control over the process of reproduction, without destroying life.

I speak as someone who spent ten years in a government position dealing with childhood and adult sexual abuse. I've read reports, medical examinations, witness statements and psychological evaluations of between 2000 and 4000 victims, including children in a similar situation to the OP victim.

I would argue that a person's psychological wellbeing, intrinsically linked with their physical health is determined less by 'value systems' and more by medical understanding. I understand why you might be suspect of that, but do you accept that mistrust may be dogmatic, 'feelings' based and contrary to medical opinion. Why should that have an impact on the rights available to abused girls?

On what other matters are you willing to suspend both rights and accepted medical understanding in order to 're-order' societies response to pregnancy to meet your pre-conceived notions of personhood?

EDIT: You appear to have answered this before I was able to post

No amount of evidence can convince me that someone is better off with their child dead, killed inside of them.

[Beet]

1. A person's psychological well-being is not of lesser importance, but determinations of well being are necessarily more subject to value systems and assumptions about the meaning of human flourishing.  I do not trust any mental health determination which would find abortion compatible with promoting human flourishing of the person undergoing the abortion.

So you're just asserting that no amount of evidence can convince you that having a child is not right for some people.

No amount of evidence can convince me that someone is better off with their child dead, killed inside of them.

You did not respond to my question of whether you consider a non-implanted embryo to be an equal tragedy as this girl getting an abortion.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

[DrScholl]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

[Slander and/or Libel]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Try speaking to women who have actually had abortions and are to this day grateful to have done so, because of the circumstances of their life, because of their own health (mental and otherwise), etc.

[Dr Oz Lost Party!]

It's horrifying to see the amount of people on this forum justifying the forced pregnancy of an 11 year old child...

[Esteemed Jimmy]

It's horrifying to see the amount of people on this forum justifying the forced pregnancy of an 11 year old child...

It's more horrifying that there are many more people who are not on this forum who want that to happen.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

Uh, excuse you, you mean a gift a from God, the rape and all, sure bad circumstances but who even cares haha! And of course ending the pregnancy is way worse than any silly old rape case could ever be lol. That's just common sense of course

[Person Man]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

Uh, excuse you, you mean a gift a from God, the rape and all, sure bad circumstances but who even cares haha! And of course ending the pregnancy is way worse than any silly old rape case could ever be lol. That's just common sense of course

So your religion is more important than other people's welfare? Isn't this then state-sponsored ritual abuse?

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

Uh, excuse you, you mean a gift a from God, the rape and all, sure bad circumstances but who even cares haha! And of course ending the pregnancy is way worse than any silly old rape case could ever be lol. That's just common sense of course

So your religion is more important than other people's welfare? Isn't this then state-sponsored ritual abuse?

/s

[Person Man]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

Uh, excuse you, you mean a gift a from God, the rape and all, sure bad circumstances but who even cares haha! And of course ending the pregnancy is way worse than any silly old rape case could ever be lol. That's just common sense of course

So your religion is more important than other people's welfare? Isn't this then state-sponsored ritual abuse?

/s

Sorry. Too many jackasses today to deal with. Poe's law. yadda yadda yada. But still... what ever the outrage du jour is probably evidence of some sort of serious moral decay in the underbelly of society perpetrated by the source of the outrage. That's not just cynicism. That's just a smart idea on how to stay vigilant for the next major societal need.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

[DrScholl]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

That doesn't work for everyone and it certainly wouldn't work for a minor.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

Uh, excuse you, you mean a gift a from God, the rape and all, sure bad circumstances but who even cares haha! And of course ending the pregnancy is way worse than any silly old rape case could ever be lol. That's just common sense of course

So your religion is more important than other people's welfare? Isn't this then state-sponsored ritual abuse?

/s

Sorry. Too many jackasses today to deal with. Poe's law. yadda yadda yada. But still... what ever the outrage du jour is probably evidence of some sort of serious moral decay in the underbelly of society perpetrated by the source of the outrage. That's not just cynicism. That's just a smart idea on how to stay vigilant for the next major societal need.

Know that a lot of people who are pro-life like me are not batsh!t crazy at heart Talabamians like Shua. The kinds of abortions I want to prevent are stuff like if a family decides 4 months in they cannot afford the child, so they say it is abortion time, or if people just keep doing things irresponsibly and coming back as repeat customers just cause, or people like Tim Murphy who have an affair and want an abortion just to cover their @$$e$. Or people who want an abortion if they discover their kid has down syndrome, and they want a "normal" baby, stuff like that is what I want banned, a lot of pro-lifers are like that.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

That doesn't work for everyone and it certainly wouldn't work for a minor.

"Don’t make a noise or I’ll kill you." I lay terrified as he ripped off my clothes and raped me. As a slim sixteen-year-old, I was no match for him. He threatened to come after me if I told anyone, so I lay motionless in a cloud of pain and nausea as he disappeared into the night.

Our house was empty, and I rushed to cleanse myself of the horrible dirty feeling that clung to me. I threw away my torn clothes, immersed myself in a hot tub, and scrubbed till my skin ached. By the time Mom got home from work, I was huddled silently in bed. I didn’t dare tell anyone what happened.

The next morning I tried again to wash away the dirty feeling, but nothing worked. I lost my appetite, was haunted by nightmares, and couldn’t concentrate in school. I kept looking over my shoulder, certain he was coming back for me. Somehow I thought God must not care about me. Maybe He was even punishing me.

The thought of pregnancy hadn’t occurred to me at first, so for four months I denied the possibility. I insisted to myself that my queasiness was just a touch of the flu, and my missed periods were due to shock.

But a doctor’s exam finally erased all doubt. I cried all the way home from his office.

Though I could no longer hide that I was pregnant, I still didn’t tell anyone about the rape. Mom had been abandoned by my dad before I was born, and she worked hard to support us. She had no idea what I was really going through, and her words couldn’t comfort my hurts and fears. We’d never been very close, and I felt increasingly alone.

Surprisingly, the nightmares diminished as I felt the baby move. This new life brought the first glimmer of healing from the rape. As the months passed, I started to think this child would fill the void that had ached inside me for so long. I eagerly waited for the day when I’d hold my baby in my arms.

Kay Zibolsky

[DrScholl]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

That doesn't work for everyone and it certainly wouldn't work for a minor.

"Don’t make a noise or I’ll kill you." I lay terrified as he ripped off my clothes and raped me. As a slim sixteen-year-old, I was no match for him. He threatened to come after me if I told anyone, so I lay motionless in a cloud of pain and nausea as he disappeared into the night.

Our house was empty, and I rushed to cleanse myself of the horrible dirty feeling that clung to me. I threw away my torn clothes, immersed myself in a hot tub, and scrubbed till my skin ached. By the time Mom got home from work, I was huddled silently in bed. I didn’t dare tell anyone what happened.

The next morning I tried again to wash away the dirty feeling, but nothing worked. I lost my appetite, was haunted by nightmares, and couldn’t concentrate in school. I kept looking over my shoulder, certain he was coming back for me. Somehow I thought God must not care about me. Maybe He was even punishing me.

The thought of pregnancy hadn’t occurred to me at first, so for four months I denied the possibility. I insisted to myself that my queasiness was just a touch of the flu, and my missed periods were due to shock.

But a doctor’s exam finally erased all doubt. I cried all the way home from his office.

Though I could no longer hide that I was pregnant, I still didn’t tell anyone about the rape. Mom had been abandoned by my dad before I was born, and she worked hard to support us. She had no idea what I was really going through, and her words couldn’t comfort my hurts and fears. We’d never been very close, and I felt increasingly alone.

Surprisingly, the nightmares diminished as I felt the baby move. This new life brought the first glimmer of healing from the rape. As the months passed, I started to think this child would fill the void that had ached inside me for so long. I eagerly waited for the day when I’d hold my baby in my arms.

Kay Zibolsky

A 16 year old thinks differently than an 11 year old so there is no comparison. A five year age difference can be like a lifetime at that stage of life. Second, this young woman had no father and wasn't close to her mother and clearly says the baby would fill a void in her life. She made a choice that was right for her. You can't seriously believe that every case is going to be like this.

[afleitch]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

That doesn't work for everyone and it certainly wouldn't work for a minor.

"Don’t make a noise or I’ll kill you." I lay terrified as he ripped off my clothes and raped me. As a slim sixteen-year-old, I was no match for him. He threatened to come after me if I told anyone, so I lay motionless in a cloud of pain and nausea as he disappeared into the night.

Our house was empty, and I rushed to cleanse myself of the horrible dirty feeling that clung to me. I threw away my torn clothes, immersed myself in a hot tub, and scrubbed till my skin ached. By the time Mom got home from work, I was huddled silently in bed. I didn’t dare tell anyone what happened.

The next morning I tried again to wash away the dirty feeling, but nothing worked. I lost my appetite, was haunted by nightmares, and couldn’t concentrate in school. I kept looking over my shoulder, certain he was coming back for me. Somehow I thought God must not care about me. Maybe He was even punishing me.

The thought of pregnancy hadn’t occurred to me at first, so for four months I denied the possibility. I insisted to myself that my queasiness was just a touch of the flu, and my missed periods were due to shock.

But a doctor’s exam finally erased all doubt. I cried all the way home from his office.

Though I could no longer hide that I was pregnant, I still didn’t tell anyone about the rape. Mom had been abandoned by my dad before I was born, and she worked hard to support us. She had no idea what I was really going through, and her words couldn’t comfort my hurts and fears. We’d never been very close, and I felt increasingly alone.

Surprisingly, the nightmares diminished as I felt the baby move. This new life brought the first glimmer of healing from the rape. As the months passed, I started to think this child would fill the void that had ached inside me for so long. I eagerly waited for the day when I’d hold my baby in my arms.

Kay Zibolsky

I fully accept and respect her testimony and support her decision as much as I respect the testimony of those people who take a fundamentally different view. That's the great joy in being pro-choice.

[Person Man]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

That doesn't work for everyone and it certainly wouldn't work for a minor.

"Don’t make a noise or I’ll kill you." I lay terrified as he ripped off my clothes and raped me. As a slim sixteen-year-old, I was no match for him. He threatened to come after me if I told anyone, so I lay motionless in a cloud of pain and nausea as he disappeared into the night.

Our house was empty, and I rushed to cleanse myself of the horrible dirty feeling that clung to me. I threw away my torn clothes, immersed myself in a hot tub, and scrubbed till my skin ached. By the time Mom got home from work, I was huddled silently in bed. I didn’t dare tell anyone what happened.

The next morning I tried again to wash away the dirty feeling, but nothing worked. I lost my appetite, was haunted by nightmares, and couldn’t concentrate in school. I kept looking over my shoulder, certain he was coming back for me. Somehow I thought God must not care about me. Maybe He was even punishing me.

The thought of pregnancy hadn’t occurred to me at first, so for four months I denied the possibility. I insisted to myself that my queasiness was just a touch of the flu, and my missed periods were due to shock.

But a doctor’s exam finally erased all doubt. I cried all the way home from his office.

Though I could no longer hide that I was pregnant, I still didn’t tell anyone about the rape. Mom had been abandoned by my dad before I was born, and she worked hard to support us. She had no idea what I was really going through, and her words couldn’t comfort my hurts and fears. We’d never been very close, and I felt increasingly alone.

Surprisingly, the nightmares diminished as I felt the baby move. This new life brought the first glimmer of healing from the rape. As the months passed, I started to think this child would fill the void that had ached inside me for so long. I eagerly waited for the day when I’d hold my baby in my arms.

Kay Zibolsky

I fully accept and respect her testimony and support her decision as much as I respect the testimony of those people who take a fundamentally different view. That's the great joy in being pro-choice.

Shua’s pro-choice. It’s just that it’s his choice.

[Alben Barkley]

1. A person's psychological well-being is not of lesser importance, but determinations of well being are necessarily more subject to value systems and assumptions about the meaning of human flourishing.  I do not trust any mental health determination which would find abortion compatible with promoting human flourishing of the person undergoing the abortion.

So you're just asserting that no amount of evidence can convince you that having a child is not right for some people.

No amount of evidence can convince me that someone is better off with their child dead, killed inside of them.

I stopped reading right there, and you lost the argument right there too. The moment someone admits they are literally immune to evidence, they are saying “I have made up my mind, I have buried my head in the sand, and no matter how clear it is that the sky is blue, it is green. No matter how much proof you have that 2+2 = 4, it is 5.”

People like you scare the hell out of me and are not worth engaging with beyond dismissal and ridicule.

[Alben Barkley]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

[Person Man]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

Like I said, it’s still someone’s choice.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

Few people would say that a zygote or fetus isn't living oh, much the same way few would deny the biological fact that a sperm cell or blood cells aren't living entities.

The distinction anti-abortion people Miss isn't whether or not a zygote or fetus is alive, but whether or not to make it a citizen.

There is a difference between "making it a citizen" and acknowledging that it is a human being. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What mental health condition is it that abortion is supposed to cure, or prevent?  Are these permanent conditions that cannot be treated in other ways?

Having to carry around a reminder of a violent attack is not going to allow a victim to start the healing process and move on. That's common sense.

"Common sense" that ignores the way that caring for someone can reaffirm one's own worth and purpose in life.

Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion…. I had no support, and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift – the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal.

I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful, and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.(2)

(link)

Wow, one person made the CHOICE to give birth to her rapist’s baby and didn’t regret it. Therefore every woman should be forced to do the same, and deprived of that choice, because the outcome will obviously be the same for them as it was for this one woman who did have the choice.

Really sound logic!

It's not "her rapist's baby" though.  That's my point!  It's a destructive framing.  How we respond to things depends on how we frame them, the stories we tell about them:   Is your pregnancy primarily a reminder of a criminal act committed by someone who took power over you?   Or is it reminder of your own power as a nurturer of new life, a power of a kind your rapist will never have? 

I don't deny at all that the choice element is relevant in this process.  But someone please explain to me, without relying on the same old political platitudes and talking points, how this ever justifies taking a human life?