11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[Person Man]

I wish liberals would stop giving conservatives the benefit of the doubt that they really believe abortion is murder. If you really believe abortion was murder, you would be out there doing civil disobedience every day and formenting revolution against the government.

The vast majority of so-called pro-lifers don't actually think this way. They conveniently use this old trope as an excuse to (1) call people names, (2) selectively justify any position or supporting any awful person in politics.

The evidence only ever piles up that so-called pro-lifers are against womens' rights. Giving people an absurd benefit of the doubt at the end is not productive. Sure, some liberals have doubts about the morality of abortion, but you shouldn't project the uncertainties of your own conscience onto people acting in bad faith.

What can we do?  I mean, I don’t believe them. Maybe if they chose one thing from that list I put out earlier today I would. Maybe if they were the ones, instead of Islamists, who hated tall buildings I
would. Reckon there were a few who actually believe it was murder. They just blew up government buildings and the Olympics. That’s probably why the Olympics and come here anymore. So there’s that.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

[T'Chenka]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

How do you explain the passion of opposition held by millions, men and women, young and old?

I think they've been largely convinced that abortion is wrong, but I think their actions don't back up that calling it murder is anything but a rhetorical device. Most people who claim abortion is murder don't propose to hold women who seek abortions to the same punishments as people who murder actual living human beings.

There are people like yourself who insist that they aren't actual living human beings, so most of us would tend to be lenient if they seek an abortion under this misbelief.

So like, does that apply across the board? Like do you think someone who murders someone should get a lighter sentence if they insist the victim was subhuman?

No.

The pregnant mother and her unborn child is a unique relationship.   You recognize that.  In fact you go so far as to believe that the relationship means the child isn't even human.   I merely suggest that the relationship means that the law can treat it in a distinct way from other relationships, recognizing the unique burdens it places on the mother, and the gradual revealing of the child's presence to the mother over the course of the pregnancy. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

You have something specific in mind that would help?  I'll be glad to hear it.  We can enlist you into the cause!

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

[T'Chenka]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

You have something specific in mind that would help?  I'll be glad to hear it.  We can enlist you into the cause!

Maybe more Republican representatives should come out publically and say that they fully endorse this and the Alabama abortion ban and tbat the country needs to start imprisoning women and doctors. If you TRULY, deep down, with no bulls___ believe abortion is murder, some of you should be campaigning to change the laws brcause it's truly the right thing to do and leaving things how they are now is unacceptable. If the Republican voter base TRULY feels the same, they will stand up and defend you when the liberals try to pounce on you. If current laws are a disgusting grave injustice, why isn't there an Unborn Lives Matter movement trending on social media and making news headlines and having huge public protests in cities all over the country?

Based on the evidence, it seems that either Republicans don't feel this way deep down, OR there are definitely Republicans that feel this way deep down, but it's a much smaller percentage than is claimed.

[T'Chenka]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

It's still offensive and cruel. It may come from a good place in your heart, but there are real and serious consequences with passing laws on abortion.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

You have something specific in mind that would help?  I'll be glad to hear it.  We can enlist you into the cause!

Maybe more Republican representatives should come out publically and say that they fully endorse this and the Alabama abortion ban and tbat the country needs to start imprisoning women and doctors. If you TRULY, deep down, with no bulls___ believe abortion is murder, some of you should be campaigning to change the laws brcause it's truly the right thing to do and leaving things how they are now is unacceptable. If the Republican voter base TRULY feels the same, they will stand up and defend you when the liberals try to pounce on you. If current laws are a disgusting grave injustice, why isn't there an Unborn Lives Matter movement trending on social media and making news headlines and having huge public protests in cities all over the country?

Based on the evidence, it seems that either Republicans don't feel this way deep down, OR there are definitely Republicans that feel this way deep down, but it's a much smaller percentage than is claimed.

Yeah great ideas, why don't we try to change laws, maybe have a big protest, call it a "March for Life" or something like that?  We can also pray outside of abortion clinics and set up centers to encourage pregnant women to not abort and give them support through their pregnancy and afterwards.  Wow, we've never thought of any of that before!

[T'Chenka]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

You have something specific in mind that would help?  I'll be glad to hear it.  We can enlist you into the cause!

Maybe more Republican representatives should come out publically and say that they fully endorse this and the Alabama abortion ban and tbat the country needs to start imprisoning women and doctors. If you TRULY, deep down, with no bulls___ believe abortion is murder, some of you should be campaigning to change the laws brcause it's truly the right thing to do and leaving things how they are now is unacceptable. If the Republican voter base TRULY feels the same, they will stand up and defend you when the liberals try to pounce on you. If current laws are a disgusting grave injustice, why isn't there an Unborn Lives Matter movement trending on social media and making news headlines and having huge public protests in cities all over the country?

Based on the evidence, it seems that either Republicans don't feel this way deep down, OR there are definitely Republicans that feel this way deep down, but it's a much smaller percentage than is claimed.

Yeah great ideas, why don't we try to change laws, maybe have a big protest, call it a "March for Life" or something like that?  We can also pray outside of abortion clinics and set up centers to encourage pregnant women to not abort and give them support through their pregnancy and afterwards.  Wow, we've never thought of any of that before!

Where are the conservative representatives going out of their way to praise and encourage Ohio, Georgia, Alabama right now on social media? The posts where they say "this is just the beginning, we're going to go to all 50 states and end this travesty"? A lot of them are being quiet as a political calculation. If they truly feel that strongly about children being murdered, politically calculated silence should not be a moral option for them to choose.

[afleitch]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

You could be direct. You realise that would help. But I'll bite. In this exchange;

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

This entire thread is about an 11 year old victim of child rape. You gave a series of non answers in this exchange. I'll ask you again; should a child give birth to a child? If you argue about 'fertility' etc etc (showing, I think, an actual disregard of the physical and mental state of a child as young as 11, in some cases even younger), then can you accept you are accepting and by extension 'passively validating' the outcome of defining childhood by whether or not they can reproduce rather than consent/suffrage?

In short, should a child who under no legal circumstances can consent to any sexual activity be required to deliver a child, the outcome of that, to term? If so on what basis are consent laws required if they do not inform the outcome of such an act?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

Was it too much to expect Democrats like Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, Sam Nunn, and Dick Gephardt to hold fast to THEIR principles and not change their positions on abortion when they decided to run for President some day?  (Nunn switched, then decided not to run in 1988.)

Was it too much to expect the liberal Catholic Democratic delegation of Massachusetts to hold fast to their pro-life position?  In 1976, all Massachusetts Catholic Democrats were both highly liberal and pro-life; what happened to where some of these folks changed, and their successors all became pro-abortion?  Where's the principle in liberal circles?

Or is it OK to cave on principle just because you've had a Mind Meld with Joe Republic?  You tell me.

[Person Man]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

Was it too much to expect Democrats like Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, Sam Nunn, and Dick Gephardt to hold fast to THEIR principles and not change their positions on abortion when they decided to run for President some day?  (Nunn switched, then decided not to run in 1988.)

Was it too much to expect the liberal Catholic Democratic delegation of Massachusetts to hold fast to their pro-life position?  In 1976, all Massachusetts Catholic Democrats were both highly liberal and pro-life; what happened to where some of these folks changed, and their successors all became pro-abortion?  Where's the principle in liberal circles?

Or is it OK to cave on principle just because you've had a Mind Meld with Joe Republic?  You tell me.

That’s not the issue. In fact proves an important point. When called out for being insincere, why is the response always more insincerity??

[Joe Republic]

Or is it OK to cave on principle just because you've had a Mind Meld with Joe Republic?  You tell me.

I am hereby giving notice of my intent to vacate your head, please.  Paying no rent is great and all, but it’s too small, empty, and closed off from the real world.

[Person Man]

Or is it OK to cave on principle just because you've had a Mind Meld with Joe Republic?  You tell me.

I am hereby giving notice of my intent to vacate your head, please.  Paying no rent is great and all, but it’s too small, empty, and closed off from the real world.

Location. Location. Location.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

You have something specific in mind that would help?  I'll be glad to hear it.  We can enlist you into the cause!

Maybe more Republican representatives should come out publically and say that they fully endorse this and the Alabama abortion ban and tbat the country needs to start imprisoning women and doctors. If you TRULY, deep down, with no bulls___ believe abortion is murder, some of you should be campaigning to change the laws brcause it's truly the right thing to do and leaving things how they are now is unacceptable. If the Republican voter base TRULY feels the same, they will stand up and defend you when the liberals try to pounce on you. If current laws are a disgusting grave injustice, why isn't there an Unborn Lives Matter movement trending on social media and making news headlines and having huge public protests in cities all over the country?

Based on the evidence, it seems that either Republicans don't feel this way deep down, OR there are definitely Republicans that feel this way deep down, but it's a much smaller percentage than is claimed.

Yeah great ideas, why don't we try to change laws, maybe have a big protest, call it a "March for Life" or something like that?  We can also pray outside of abortion clinics and set up centers to encourage pregnant women to not abort and give them support through their pregnancy and afterwards.  Wow, we've never thought of any of that before!

Where are the conservative representatives going out of their way to praise and encourage Ohio, Georgia, Alabama right now on social media? The posts where they say "this is just the beginning, we're going to go to all 50 states and end this travesty"? A lot of them are being quiet as a political calculation. If they truly feel that strongly about children being murdered, politically calculated silence should not be a moral option for them to choose.

Do you mean the politicians?  Politicians are often insincere.  None of the people arguing in this thread are politicians (that I know of).

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Is it too much to ask Republicans to have principles and to actually fight back against the things they scream and cry about being HUGE grave injustices? To prove that you aren't full of shiiza?

You have something specific in mind that would help?  I'll be glad to hear it.  We can enlist you into the cause!

Maybe more Republican representatives should come out publically and say that they fully endorse this and the Alabama abortion ban and tbat the country needs to start imprisoning women and doctors. If you TRULY, deep down, with no bulls___ believe abortion is murder, some of you should be campaigning to change the laws brcause it's truly the right thing to do and leaving things how they are now is unacceptable. If the Republican voter base TRULY feels the same, they will stand up and defend you when the liberals try to pounce on you. If current laws are a disgusting grave injustice, why isn't there an Unborn Lives Matter movement trending on social media and making news headlines and having huge public protests in cities all over the country?

Based on the evidence, it seems that either Republicans don't feel this way deep down, OR there are definitely Republicans that feel this way deep down, but it's a much smaller percentage than is claimed.

I literally posted about my attendance at a pro-life rally in the heart of Center City, and it was deleted for trolling. Many people at this rally literally wore Unborn Lives Matter shirts.

I literally said something about the need for radical actions to be undertaken by certain heroes to resolve the abhorrent injustice. Again, deleted for trolling.

Conservatives outside of Trump also fail to use social media in the same way in part due to age. But we are all desperately awaiting the coming of our saviour, Amy Coney Barrett.

[Beet]

Pro-choicers complaining that most pro-lifers aren't advocating locking up girls who have abortions, and aren't engaged in enough revolutionary violence.   incredible.

I guess Abraham Lincoln didn't really believe slavery was an injustice, since he wasn't out there at Harper's Ferry with John Brown.

Given that what you guys allege, that millions of children are literally being murdered and have been for 40 years... yeah. Something like that would require much more drastic action than what pro-lifers actually do. If you really believe life begins at conception, shouldn't society be racing to find a cure for embryos that fail to implant? By that standard 1/3 of pregnancies result in death.

[Badger]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

Few people would say that a zygote or fetus isn't living oh, much the same way few would deny the biological fact that a sperm cell or blood cells aren't living entities.

The distinction anti-abortion people Miss isn't whether or not a zygote or fetus is alive, but whether or not to make it a citizen.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

Few people would say that a zygote or fetus isn't living oh, much the same way few would deny the biological fact that a sperm cell or blood cells aren't living entities.

The distinction anti-abortion people Miss isn't whether or not a zygote or fetus is alive, but whether or not to make it a citizen.

Personally I don't believe it's okay to kill human beings, even if they are non-citizens.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

You could be direct. You realise that would help. But I'll bite. In this exchange;

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

This entire thread is about an 11 year old victim of child rape. You gave a series of non answers in this exchange. I'll ask you again; should a child give birth to a child? If you argue about 'fertility' etc etc (showing, I think, an actual disregard of the physical and mental state of a child as young as 11, in some cases even younger), then can you accept you are accepting and by extension 'passively validating' the outcome of defining childhood by whether or not they can reproduce rather than consent/suffrage?

In short, should a child who under no legal circumstances can consent to any sexual activity be required to deliver a child, the outcome of that, to term? If so on what basis are consent laws required if they do not inform the outcome of such an act?

What question didn't I answer?  What is unclear?

You were making a claim about the inability of an 11-year old to give birth without major physical damage to her body. I pointed out that it isn't necessarily the case given that a girl who fertile at 11 is likely to be relatively physically mature compared to others her age, so one can't assume she is incapable of giving birth normally, and this needs to be determined on an individual medical basis. I didn't expect anyone would read a statement about physical maturity as a claim about mental maturity as well.

If she is not old enough to give birth, because she can't be said to consent to sex, she certainly can't be old enough to have to an abortion either, since that would be a result of sex also.  So this is presents a very difficult problem but abortion cannot be considered a way out of it.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

You could be direct. You realise that would help. But I'll bite. In this exchange;

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

This entire thread is about an 11 year old victim of child rape. You gave a series of non answers in this exchange. I'll ask you again; should a child give birth to a child? If you argue about 'fertility' etc etc (showing, I think, an actual disregard of the physical and mental state of a child as young as 11, in some cases even younger), then can you accept you are accepting and by extension 'passively validating' the outcome of defining childhood by whether or not they can reproduce rather than consent/suffrage?

In short, should a child who under no legal circumstances can consent to any sexual activity be required to deliver a child, the outcome of that, to term? If so on what basis are consent laws required if they do not inform the outcome of such an act?

You were making a claim about the inability of an 11-year old to give birth without major physical damage to her body. I merely pointed out that it isn't necessarily the case given that a girl who fertile at 11 is likely to be relatively physically mature compared to others her age, so one can't assume she is incapable of giving birth normally, and this needs to be determined on an individual medical basis.

If she is not old enough to consent to give birth, she certainly can't be old enough to consent to an abortion either.  So this is presents a very difficult problem but abortion cannot be considered a way out of it.

The fetus was put in her without her consent. She was raped, you monster.

[afleitch]

Okay so now I have to ask:

If you assume that I *really* believe that an unborn child is a sacred human life with worth and dignity, not that I'm necessarily right, but just that I really believe it...

Is anything I've said in this thread that you still would find offensive and cruel?  OR is it what you'd expect, but maybe not radical enough? 

You could be direct. You realise that would help. But I'll bite. In this exchange;

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

This entire thread is about an 11 year old victim of child rape. You gave a series of non answers in this exchange. I'll ask you again; should a child give birth to a child? If you argue about 'fertility' etc etc (showing, I think, an actual disregard of the physical and mental state of a child as young as 11, in some cases even younger), then can you accept you are accepting and by extension 'passively validating' the outcome of defining childhood by whether or not they can reproduce rather than consent/suffrage?

In short, should a child who under no legal circumstances can consent to any sexual activity be required to deliver a child, the outcome of that, to term? If so on what basis are consent laws required if they do not inform the outcome of such an act?

You were making a claim about the inability of an 11-year old to give birth without major physical damage to her body. I merely pointed out that it isn't necessarily the case given that a girl who fertile at 11 is likely to be relatively physically mature compared to others her age, so one can't assume she is incapable of giving birth normally, and this needs to be determined on an individual medical basis.

If she is not old enough to consent to give birth, she certainly can't be old enough to consent to an abortion either.  So this is presents a very difficult problem but abortion cannot be considered a way out of it.

1. Does an 'individual medical basis' include psychological health reasons which are considered as valid by medical professionals as part of a persons overall health and wellbeing or are those 'suspended' if a woman is pregnant? If so, do you consider a persons psychological wellbeing as of lesser importance and why.

2. In what way is consent needed/required to give birth?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

1. Does an 'individual medical basis' include psychological health reasons which are considered as valid by medical professionals as part of a persons overall health and wellbeing or are those 'suspended' if a woman is pregnant? If so, do you consider a persons psychological wellbeing as of lesser importance and why.

2. In what way is consent needed/required to give birth?

1. A person's psychological well-being is not of lesser importance, but determinations of well being are necessarily more subject to value systems and assumptions about the meaning of human flourishing.  I do not trust any mental health determination which would find abortion compatible with promoting human flourishing of the person undergoing the abortion.

2. Nature does not allow us to say that consent is required to give birth in the same way as for sex.  Our human social abilities thankfully allow us to make the act of sex dependent upon mutual consent, and to call violations of this evil.  We do not have such direct control over the process of reproduction, without destroying life.

[Person Man]

1. Does an 'individual medical basis' include psychological health reasons which are considered as valid by medical professionals as part of a persons overall health and wellbeing or are those 'suspended' if a woman is pregnant? If so, do you consider a persons psychological wellbeing as of lesser importance and why.

2. In what way is consent needed/required to give birth?

1. A person's psychological well-being is not of lesser importance, but determinations of well being are necessarily more subject to value systems and assumptions about the meaning of human flourishing.  I do not trust any mental health determination which would find abortion compatible with promoting human flourishing of the person undergoing the abortion.

2. Nature does not allow us to say that consent is required to give birth in the same way as for sex.  Our human social abilities thankfully allow us to make the act of sex dependent upon mutual consent, and to call violations of this evil.  We do not have such direct control over the process of reproduction, without destroying life.

“Destroying Life” sounds like clearing the rainforest or something. We’re just getting too abstract at this point.