11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[T'Chenka]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?  
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

Quit the theatrics. You knew it would be extremely controversial.

So did I.  Bring it on.  The unborn children who are no less human than you or I, even though their biological father is a complete scumbag deserve people willing to take on the controversy, in the hopes that they won't be killed.  They are innocent life.

And abortion kills unborn children, inflicting real pain on them in the process.  Real pain.

If you get your kidney removed in a medical procedure, are you inflicting real pain on your kidney in the process? Real pain?

Depending how old the zygote is, it is literally just a piece of tissue in your body that has somewhat different DNA and is growing. If you want to talk about a soul, it's hard to say and I won't say you are wrong. If you want to talk about SCIENCE, like pain receptors and cognitive ability to comprehend pain, then your argument is COMPLETE trash and a joke, up to a certain poimt in the pregnancy. After that point in the pregnancy, I concede that you are correct. I think you are miscalculating though that "that certain point in the pregnancy" is just a few weeks in, which is scientifically inaccurate. Not debateable or "just your opinion." Factually incorrect.

[7,052,770]

okay maybe misinterpreted as I'm having trouble seeing what post of mine you are talking about at any point, since there were two you had a problem with it seems.  You originally had a problem with the first one, but now it's the second one instead?

No. I don't know which one "the first post" or "the second post" are, but all I've ever been talking about since 7:05:37 is your 7:03:37 "I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it" post. Not sure what's been unclear.

I knew the post (as in, the first one, that several people responded to) might be kinda controversial just due to the issue, so I tried to make it as measured as I could in that moment while still getting across what I wanted to say. I didn't expect the extent of the controversy!   

This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss politics, including how people approach politics, the psychology of politics, political rhetoric, differences in political values, etc, right?   Pointing out that making a statement gets a response much more negative than one expected falls within that.  It isn't "pearl clutching."

And I'm calling you out on that because I think you DID know full and well the "extent of the controversy" your post would cause.

And I'm fine with controversy - I wouldn't be posting on this thread at all if I weren't. I just get annoyed when people throw bombs into threads and then act all innocent and incredulous about it. Own it like Fuzzy does.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

It's also completely irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal, as opposed to something that is merely discouraged or frowned upon.

I don't know what argument you are making here that would imply it is irrelevant. Unless you believe the law should not reflect standards of justice and morality that exist outside of current legal codes?

The foundational issue here is indeed what is discouraged in our society, and what is discouraged.  If something is illegal, but society as a whole doesn't care, institutions won't move to prevent it, pop culture will endorse it.  Eventually the law will be repealed or ignored or evaded. 

What is legal ought to be derived from what should be discouraged or encouraged, though not in a straightforward 1:1 fashion (many things rightly discouraged ought not be made illegal).  On the other hand I see a tendency in our contemporary society on the other hand to make an argument why something should be legal, and then claim because it is a legal right it's practice shouldn't be criticized.  This is backwards.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

okay maybe misinterpreted as I'm having trouble seeing what post of mine you are talking about at any point, since there were two you had a problem with it seems.  You originally had a problem with the first one, but now it's the second one instead?

No. I don't know which one "the first post" or "the second post" are, but all I've ever been talking about since 7:05:37 is your 7:03:37 "I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it" post. Not sure what's been unclear.

I knew the post (as in, the first one, that several people responded to) might be kinda controversial just due to the issue, so I tried to make it as measured as I could in that moment while still getting across what I wanted to say. I didn't expect the extent of the controversy!   

This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss politics, including how people approach politics, the psychology of politics, political rhetoric, differences in political values, etc, right?   Pointing out that making a statement gets a response much more negative than one expected falls within that.  It isn't "pearl clutching."

And I'm calling you out on that because I think you DID know full and well the "extent of the controversy" your post would cause.

And I'm fine with controversy - I wouldn't be posting on this thread at all if I weren't. I just get annoyed when people throw bombs into threads and then act all innocent and incredulous about it. Own it like Fuzzy does.

The first post as in this one.  That's the one I was surprised was so very controversial. 
I wasn't referring the very post I was typing lol

[7,052,770]

okay maybe misinterpreted as I'm having trouble seeing what post of mine you are talking about at any point, since there were two you had a problem with it seems.  You originally had a problem with the first one, but now it's the second one instead?

No. I don't know which one "the first post" or "the second post" are, but all I've ever been talking about since 7:05:37 is your 7:03:37 "I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it" post. Not sure what's been unclear.

I knew the post (as in, the first one, that several people responded to) might be kinda controversial just due to the issue, so I tried to make it as measured as I could in that moment while still getting across what I wanted to say. I didn't expect the extent of the controversy!   

This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss politics, including how people approach politics, the psychology of politics, political rhetoric, differences in political values, etc, right?   Pointing out that making a statement gets a response much more negative than one expected falls within that.  It isn't "pearl clutching."

And I'm calling you out on that because I think you DID know full and well the "extent of the controversy" your post would cause.

And I'm fine with controversy - I wouldn't be posting on this thread at all if I weren't. I just get annoyed when people throw bombs into threads and then act all innocent and incredulous about it. Own it like Fuzzy does.

The first post as in this one.  That's the one I was surprised was so very controversial. 
I wasn't referring the very post I was typing lol

:FACEPALM:

I know. JFC.

At 7:03:37 you said that you didn't realize that the posted you just linked would be so controversial.

At 7:05:37 I called BS on that.

And here we are. I still call BS on it, because of course you knew the post (as in the 01:05:59 post you just linked) was controversial. "So very controversial."

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

okay maybe misinterpreted as I'm having trouble seeing what post of mine you are talking about at any point, since there were two you had a problem with it seems.  You originally had a problem with the first one, but now it's the second one instead?

No. I don't know which one "the first post" or "the second post" are, but all I've ever been talking about since 7:05:37 is your 7:03:37 "I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it" post. Not sure what's been unclear.

I knew the post (as in, the first one, that several people responded to) might be kinda controversial just due to the issue, so I tried to make it as measured as I could in that moment while still getting across what I wanted to say. I didn't expect the extent of the controversy!   

This is supposed to be a forum where we discuss politics, including how people approach politics, the psychology of politics, political rhetoric, differences in political values, etc, right?   Pointing out that making a statement gets a response much more negative than one expected falls within that.  It isn't "pearl clutching."

And I'm calling you out on that because I think you DID know full and well the "extent of the controversy" your post would cause.

And I'm fine with controversy - I wouldn't be posting on this thread at all if I weren't. I just get annoyed when people throw bombs into threads and then act all innocent and incredulous about it. Own it like Fuzzy does.

The first post as in this one.  That's the one I was surprised was so very controversial. 
I wasn't referring the very post I was typing lol

:FACEPALM:

I know. JFC.

At 7:03:37 you said that you didn't realize that the posted you just linked would be so controversial.

At 7:05:37 I called BS on that.

And here we are. I still call BS on it, because of course you knew the post (as in the 01:05:59 post you just linked) was controversial. "So very controversial."

okay then I have no clue why you would say that but  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

The unborn children who are no less human than you or I, even though their biological father is a complete scumbag deserve people willing to take on the controversy, in the hopes that they won't be killed.  They are innocent life.

And abortion kills unborn children, inflicting real pain on them in the process.  Real pain.

Well I don't agree with any of that (except for the part about the father being a scumbag). And neither millions and millions of other Americans. I thank God that I live in a country where your belief is not the law.

Millions and millions of Americans believe all sorts of things. Like that Donald Trump is the greatest President in modern history. And I'm thankful to live in a country that has laws that got him there so he can reshape certain other very impernanent laws in Fuzzy's image.

Slowly but surely. The winning is growing incrementally greater

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

It's also completely irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal, as opposed to something that is merely discouraged or frowned upon.

I don't know what argument you are making here that would imply it is irrelevant. Unless you believe the law should not reflect standards of justice and morality that exist outside of current legal codes?

The foundational issue here is indeed what is discouraged in our society, and what is discouraged.  If something is illegal, but society as a whole doesn't care, institutions won't move to prevent it, pop culture will endorse it.  Eventually the law will be repealed or ignored or evaded. 

What is legal ought to be derived from what should be discouraged or encouraged, though not in a straightforward 1:1 fashion (many things rightly discouraged ought not be made illegal).  On the other hand I see a tendency in our contemporary society on the other hand to make an argument why something should be legal, and then claim because it is a legal right it's practice shouldn't be criticized.  This is backwards.

Nobody cared about abortion before the 1970s. Even conservative Protestants weren't bothered by it. It was something that only Catholic clergy concerned themselves with.

The only reason conservatives decided fetuses were people was that after a decade or so of mass-produced birth control pills, they couldn't handle that women could now go through their lives without ever giving birth to a child if that was their personal preference.

The idea that "abortion is murder" is some integral bedrock foundation of our society is ahistorical nonsense.

[7,052,770]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

It's also completely irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal, as opposed to something that is merely discouraged or frowned upon.

I don't know what argument you are making here that would imply it is irrelevant. Unless you believe the law should not reflect standards of justice and morality that exist outside of current legal codes?

The foundational issue here is indeed what is discouraged in our society, and what is discouraged.  If something is illegal, but society as a whole doesn't care, institutions won't move to prevent it, pop culture will endorse it.  Eventually the law will be repealed or ignored or evaded. 

What is legal ought to be derived from what should be discouraged or encouraged, though not in a straightforward 1:1 fashion (many things rightly discouraged ought not be made illegal).  On the other hand I see a tendency in our contemporary society on the other hand to make an argument why something should be legal, and then claim because it is a legal right it's practice shouldn't be criticized.  This is backwards.

Nobody cared about abortion before the 1970s. Even conservative Protestants weren't bothered by it. It was something that only Catholic clergy concerned themselves with.

The only reason conservatives decided fetuses were people was that after a decade or so of mass-produced birth control pills, they couldn't handle that women could now go through their lives without ever giving birth to a child if that was their personal preference.

The idea that "abortion is murder" is some integral bedrock foundation of our society is ahistorical nonsense.

And as late as the 1970s, there was a lot of room for public dissent even within Catholic clergy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Drinan

[Person Man]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

People are freaking out because I suggested a *born* child could be something other to a rape victim than a literal pile of crap.

And anyway fetuses are human.  As in, they have humanity. Homo sapiens.  That is a fact. You want to make some claim about personhood in positive law, go ahead, that's not the same as humanity.

It's also completely irrelevant to whether or not abortion should be legal, as opposed to something that is merely discouraged or frowned upon.

I don't know what argument you are making here that would imply it is irrelevant. Unless you believe the law should not reflect standards of justice and morality that exist outside of current legal codes?

The foundational issue here is indeed what is discouraged in our society, and what is discouraged.  If something is illegal, but society as a whole doesn't care, institutions won't move to prevent it, pop culture will endorse it.  Eventually the law will be repealed or ignored or evaded. 

What is legal ought to be derived from what should be discouraged or encouraged, though not in a straightforward 1:1 fashion (many things rightly discouraged ought not be made illegal).  On the other hand I see a tendency in our contemporary society on the other hand to make an argument why something should be legal, and then claim because it is a legal right it's practice shouldn't be criticized.  This is backwards.

Nobody cared about abortion before the 1970s. Even conservative Protestants weren't bothered by it. It was something that only Catholic clergy concerned themselves with.

The only reason conservatives decided fetuses were people was that after a decade or so of mass-produced birth control pills, they couldn't handle that women could now go through their lives without ever giving birth to a child if that was their personal preference.

The idea that "abortion is murder" is some integral bedrock foundation of our society is ahistorical nonsense.

And as late as the 1970s, there was a lot of room for public dissent even within Catholic clergy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Drinan

Fetuses, especially until after a reasonable time after they should have been discovered, have no fundamental right to not be aborted. This can only be the case if it was that, with only a few exceptions, fetuses enjoyed that right in previous societies where the United States adopted their jurisprudence from. This doesn’t mean there aren’t better reasons why abortion shouldn’t be tolerated but this time one of them.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

[Person Man]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Its not that they think its ok. Its that they don't think its murder. Just because someone causes the death of a "human" doesn't mean they committed murder. Most people who have ever lived in a Western society doesn't think abortion automatically is killing a person or that a fetus automatically has a right not to be aborted. That doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be illegal just because of that but I am not impressed by "abortion is murder" unless you think any matter that has the potential the generate or has ever generate and consciousness is a person and that any killing of anyone is murder. Maybe you think killing anything under any circumstances is murder?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Nice try, but the pro-choice side doesn't want to force women to have abortions. It goes both ways, if a woman wants to give birth, it's her conscious decision and even if said pregnancy would most likely kill her, we still have no right to overrule her.

Ideally abortions should be as rare as possible, and this is why we need to put emphasis on proper sex education and availability of anticonception. Something many in the "pro-life" crowd ironically rejects as well, even though it would reduce a number of abortions.

[Person Man]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

Shua has officially jumped the shark, Humanity wise.

As in, I believe that children conceived due to rape have humanity?   
Yeah.  I didn't expect people here would like that position but I never realized how controversial it was before merely to state it.

If fetuses were humans, then they would have legal personhood. They don't and attempts to do so have been regularly voted down.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

If you believe fetuses that are the product of rape, that's your right.

You have no right to force that view on everyone else.

The majority of people think abortion is okay, therefore it is okay!

If abortion is murder, as pro-lifers claim it is, then that view needs to be forced on society.

Nice try, but the pro-choice side doesn't want to force women to have abortions. It goes both ways, if a woman wants to give birth, it's her conscious decision and even if said pregnancy would most likely kill her, we still have no right to overrule her.

Ideally abortions should be as rare as possible, and this is why we need to put emphasis on proper sex education and availability of anticonception. Something many in the "pro-life" crowd ironically rejects as well, even though it would reduce a number of abortions.

It appears that if you don't want there to be abortions, that you give people to choice to not need abortions. Radical natalism may not actually prevent many abortions or only would with a level of pressure only attainable with novel technology or only in conjunction with what pro-choice politicians and activists are already working on.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

[Slander and/or Libel]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

I think that both the woman seeking the abortion and the doctor should receive a punishment.

[afleitch]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

But taking a life isn't outlawed in every case. Otherwise you wouldn't have the police or armed forces. There's a self-defense argument for abortion you know, not one I would argue but it exists.

[7,052,770]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

If abortion is murder, it must be illegal in all circumstances, regardless of public opinion. Thankfully it is not murder so the point is moot.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

I think that both the woman seeking the abortion and the doctor should receive a punishment.

Same punishment as first degree murder? Potential death penalty for the mother?

[Person Man]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

I think that both the woman seeking the abortion and the doctor should receive a punishment.

What about the father or anyone who didn't say anything or helped? Shouldn't the father have known that his "son" or "daughter" was in danger? What would you say if a 4 year kid shot himself while his dad was binge watching cartoons in the next room?

[Gass3268]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

If abortion is murder, it must be illegal in all circumstances, regardless of public opinion. Thankfully it is not murder so the point is moot.

Exactly, it's not murder. Let's move on like the rest of the first world has.

[I Can Now Die Happy]

I'm voting against the Dems until the day I die, but assuming the news about the recent abortion laws that got passed in Ohio, Georgia, and Alabama are true and **not just overblown liberal hysterics** then this is nuts and definitely will hurt the party.

Even so, the good news for us is that the Democratic Party proposes horrible ideas on a day-to-day, hour-to-hour, second-to-second basis. They will arguably get hurt more by said ideas than the GOP will get hurt by the recent legislation.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

How do you explain the passion of opposition held by millions, men and women, young and old?

[Person Man]

I said that if abortion is murder then it needs to be outlawed, regardless of the fact that some people think otherwise.  I understand that you disagree with my position on abortion, but can't you at least see where I'm coming from?

Sure, though the insistence by most abortion-is-murder types that the woman shouldn’t be punished gives the lie to the “belief”.

How do you explain the passion of opposition held by millions, men and women, young and old?

Is their passion universal?