11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

[Dr. Arch]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

Potential for life is not sentient life until it reaches that stage of development. Then, the discussion bares scrutiny. Until that point, it is a bunch of cell clusters, fertilized or not.

What this law does is barbaric and, moreso, an affront not only to science, but civilized society as a whole.

The arguments from the people supporting this law are all grounded on a basic lack of comprehension of what the fetal development process is. Of course, like many other political positions in the Republican party of today, it requires a suspension of critical thought, which you are all practicing skillfully.

It's not only prior to the first trimester; it's an eleven year old girl; and not only that, she's also a rape victim; and not only that, but it was also perpetrated by an adult.

This is beyond the line.

It's as curious as it is stupefying that Democrats are expected to always to tow the center, while Republicans continue to radicalize exponentially.

I don't know what kind of conversation could ever be had when the opposition is this far detached from common sense and understanding.

[afleitch]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

[afleitch]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

[Sir Mohamed]

That's terrible. I haven't read 11 pages of discussion, but she should be allowed to have an abortion in another state such as NY or CA (or IL?).

[Dr. Arch]

That's terrible. I haven't read 11 pages of discussion, but she should be allowed to have an abortion in another state such as NY or CA (or IL?).

If I were her parents, I would definitely move out and never look back at such a backwards state.

[Slander and/or Libel]

For an old man, I thought you would know about all this first-hand.     

Don't be surprised. Older members of the Religious Right have no choice to but to delete all memories about abortion from before the 1980s, lest they remember that their denominations explicitly supported Roe v. Wade when it came out, that Ronald Reagan is responsible for elective abortion being legalized in California (and remember, it was illegal because it wasn't considered safe, not because "life begins at fertilization), or that the biggest proponent of abortion rights in Congress back then was a Catholic priest.

Apparently the Religious Right invented time travel, because they somehow convinced Christians in the Roman Empire to oppose abortion.  And many Christians had to go against their culture on this.

Plenty of Evangelicals and fundamentalists opposed abortion.  As a Baptist without any particular modifiers who goes to a church that didn't exist in 1973 and has a pastor who was almost certainly born after, that doesn't really apply to me.

I find it interesting that denominations believe the Bible is 100% inerrant oppose abortion.  Isn't it also interesting that support for abortion seems to correlate with the decline of Christianity in a country?

Your last sentence is a desired outcome in the eyes of many here.

Well considering that a lot of millenials want nothing to do with religion, I'd say we're finally entering into a world where religion is not automatically a justification for genocides.

At least I know where you stand.  If you're anti-Christian, at least you're out front about it.  I have more respect for that than for people who insist that Scripture says things it clearly doesn't.

No, you fear that less than you do Christians who point out that the Bible does not prohibit abortion, and in fact explicitly assigns the fetus a lesser status than an actual human life.

"...the law does not provide that the act (abortion) pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation.’" -- St. Augustine

Yes, St. Augustine did oppose abortion, but not because he thought the fetus is a human life, it's because he believed that marriage and sex were for procreation, and women did not have the right to control their own bodies, so he denounced abortion as well as birth control. In other words, the same motivations I have been saying present day pro-lifers have.

Augustine's views were influenced by Greco-Roman thought.  Science has advanced since then.

Here's something more recent, Britain's ban on abortion that was repealed in 1967 was called the Infant Life Preservation Act.  Obviously, opposition to abortion was grounded in the  idea that it was murder.

Please. You're going to cite the name of a bill as evidence of your cause, not as the obvious rhetorical framing that it really is?

[Slander and/or Libel]

This thread is an abortion, and Fuzzy Bear is now administering the procedure.

... The procedure is still ongoing, but FB has now discarded the rusty coat hanger and is reaching for the vacuum cleaner.

Oooh, is this OK, or is this "over the top"?

It's funny to see someone who posted a youtube link to an abortion video scream at others for being over the top.

Wait, no, not funny. The other one. Disgusting.

[Cold War Liberal]

I'm pretty funny and clever

no.

[Person Man]

This sucks. Everyone who participated in this abortion has had their autism level go up by 1!💯

[Dr. Arch]

This sucks. Everyone who participated in this abortion has had their autism level go up by 1!💯

What's the equivalent of that in N of vaccines?   

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

This sucks. Everyone who participated in this abortion has had their autism level go up by 1!💯

It's still encouraging that aside of three or four people everybody else shows at least some sense in this thread.

[Person Man]

This sucks. Everyone who participated in this abortion has had their autism level go up by 1!💯

What's the equivalent of that in N of vaccines?    

That's actually a good question.
I think it's as many as it takes to paralyze you from the waist down.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

It's good that you're here to tell women that the baby they don't want to bear from the rape they didn't want to happen is an affirmation of life and hope. It doesn't matter what they think, right? Just so long as you can tell them, no, your anger is wrong, you're hopeful now.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.   

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

It's good that you're here to tell women that the baby they don't want to bear from the rape they didn't want to happen is an affirmation of life and hope. It doesn't matter what they think, right? Just so long as you can tell them, no, your anger is wrong, you're hopeful now.

I'm not telling anyone their anger is wrong.  Rage in such a case is completely appropriate.  I'm saying there are ways to respond to it that are constructive and ways that are destructive.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

You can't silence me when I'm back in the streets with all the other champions of life.

[Pouring Rain and Blairing Music]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

[afleitch]

I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that an 11-year-old rape victim should not have the unquestioned right to an abortion either gets off on cruelty or has a completely misguided sense of morality. In other words, you are a bad person. Reflect on yourself, and what morality even means. Morals aren't rules or laws - if only they were so simple.

I can live with being a bad person if it means the children of rape victims don't get the death penalty.  

Sure, this position is "anti-empathy," just as opposing the death penalty for murder is.   There would seem to be nothing less empathetic than opposing the death penalty for a murderer, since you are making those victims' families know that their loved one's killer is still alive, and preventing the feeling of closure that comes with the sacrifice of the offender's blood. And yet many people still hold this position because they believe that a life has value no matter the deed or circumstance, and that true healing might be found in something other than responding to violence with violence.

But if the 11 year old, who may still be infantile in her body and physical structure is effectively mutilated through pregnancy and delivery you're cool with that.

I'm not "cool" with any such thing.
I'm not the one suggesting mutilation of a human body as a solution to anything.

So what is your solution to a child giving birth to a child?

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

It's good that you're here to tell women that the baby they don't want to bear from the rape they didn't want to happen is an affirmation of life and hope. It doesn't matter what they think, right? Just so long as you can tell them, no, your anger is wrong, you're hopeful now.

I'm not telling anyone their anger is wrong.  Rage in such a case is completely appropriate.  I'm saying there are ways to respond to it that are constructive and ways that are destructive.

But yet, you don't believe that the best person, if indeed the only person who can determine how they feel about their pregnancy, if indeed they consider it to be one at an early stage is the person themselves? I think that's the key difference; I trust women. From those who do not see their pregnancy in pro-life terms and those who do.They should be the arbiters of this alone. Not men. Not me. Not the state and not self declared moral forces.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

I am pro-life, but some of the stuff in this thread is too far and delusional.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

How is any of that disgusting?
You think abortion is less disgusting?

[Pouring Rain and Blairing Music]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

How is any of that disgusting?
You think abortion is less disgusting?

Abortion is less disgusting than making an 11 year old rape victim carry a child that her body cannot support and has a high percentage of dying even if carried to term.

You can quote me on that and take it to the bank.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

How is any of that disgusting?
You think abortion is less disgusting?

Abortion is less disgusting than making an 11 year old rape victim carry a child that her body cannot support and has a high percentage of dying even if carried to term.

You can quote me on that and take it to the bank.

So I see you aren't responding to anything I actually said.  Gotcha.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

An 11-year old who is pregnant is likely on the more mature side physiologically and anatomically for her age, but of course a medical determination of the risks must be made in each individual case.   So the medical specifics guide what's permissible, but with the conviction that if it's possible to protect the health of the young mother, it's always better to protect the life growing inside her, for her own sake as well, and support her with everything she needs during her pregnancy and birth. Giving birth can be an affirmation of life and hope in the face of grave injustice; abortion compounds the tragedy.

One of the single most disgusting things I have read on this site, especially the parts that I emphasized. I’m not even going to dignify it with my usual trolling reply.

What the actual f--k?