11 year old rape victim forced to carry to term thanks to Ohio law.

[Joe Republic]

^ On the other hand, perhaps the aborted child will be reincarnated into a different body under happier circumstances.


Oh... reincarnation isn't real?  Well guess what, neither is what you just posted.

If you believe in a god that chooses to create a miracle of life out of an incident of violence, lust, hate, pain and fear, then you do you, and you can fucking keep it.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

You, for some reason, argued that the pro-choice crowd would be happy to inform this same person that yeah, it absolutely would be better if they'd been aborted.  You do realize that basically everybody in the pro-choice camp (excluding the eugenics assholes) is theoretically supportive of every mother's decision whether or not to abort?

Theoretically supportive.   In practice, in many circumstances they assume abortion is the way to go.  It's  all over this thread.

The assumption is there because the specific circumstances make it seem like the obvious solution.  An eleven year-old girl was raped.  To most anybody the solution is absolutely obvious... but if she and the family had freely decided to keep it, I assure you the pro-choice crowd would be supportive and accepting (not that it has anything to do with anybody else at all but them).  Hence why it's "pro-choice", and not "pro-death" as some on the other side like to say.

"If it's a result of rape, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's Down Syndrome, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's a girl, the solution is absolutely obvious."

These assumptions are value judgements about who is worthy of life.  That's inescapable.

[Joe Republic]

... And ultimately has nothing to do with you.  Or me.  Or anybody but the individuals directly involved.

[Boobs]

You, for some reason, argued that the pro-choice crowd would be happy to inform this same person that yeah, it absolutely would be better if they'd been aborted.  You do realize that basically everybody in the pro-choice camp (excluding the eugenics assholes) is theoretically supportive of every mother's decision whether or not to abort?

Theoretically supportive.   In practice, in many circumstances they assume abortion is the way to go.  It's  all over this thread.

The assumption is there because the specific circumstances make it seem like the obvious solution.  An eleven year-old girl was raped.  To most anybody the solution is absolutely obvious... but if she and the family had freely decided to keep it, I assure you the pro-choice crowd would be supportive and accepting (not that it has anything to do with anybody else at all but them).  Hence why it's "pro-choice", and not "pro-death" as some on the other side like to say.

"If it's a result of rape, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's Down Syndrome, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's a girl, the solution is absolutely obvious."

These assumptions are value judgements about who is worthy of life.  That's inescapable.

The solution is obvious, though? It’s the girl’s decision.

[Fuzzy Bear]

^ On the other hand, perhaps the aborted child will be reincarnated into a different body under happier circumstances.


Oh... reincarnation isn't real?  Well guess what, neither is what you just posted.

If you believe in a god that chooses to create a miracle of life out of an incident of violence, lust, hate, pain and fear, then you do you, and you can fucking keep it.

This post explains a lot about you.

[GoTfan]

^ On the other hand, perhaps the aborted child will be reincarnated into a different body under happier circumstances.


Oh... reincarnation isn't real?  Well guess what, neither is what you just posted.

If you believe in a god that chooses to create a miracle of life out of an incident of violence, lust, hate, pain and fear, then you do you, and you can fucking keep it.

This post explains a lot about you.

Bringing religion in as an argument is usually a good sign you have no other points.

[T'Chenka]

See, I can easily imagine myself, even at age 62, dropping everything if that 11 year old were my granddaughter, raising her, caring for her, and caring for her daughter as well.  Teaching her to walk with God through all of this, to learn that the Joy of the Lord is her strength (as, indeed, it is for everyone, whether they know it or not).  "“But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.”  (Genesis 50:20)

Would the road be hard?  Of course it would be hard for an 11 year old girl in that situation.  Would it be harder for an 11 year old with Spina Bifida?  Would it be harder for an 11 year old who is suddenly blinded?  I don't really know if those paths are harder or not; none of them are paths I would wish for myself, or for those I love.  (Or for anyone, truthfully.)  The question is what does God expect a parent of a child in such a situation to do?

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.” (Jeremiah 1:5)

For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb… Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be. (Psalm 139:13,16)

This is what the Lord says—He who made you, who formed you in the womb. (Isaiah 44:2)

“Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?” (Job 31:15)

Lots of talk about being pieced together (likely more than two pieces, aka sperm and egg) inside of the womb. As in, not making a sperm and egg into a zygote, but rather growing a zygote into a person. Based on this, I would say it's VERY possible that God would want you to abort a pre-human in order to save a young girl.

It's just too bad the 11 year old wasn't already married. The Book Of Numbers allows a husband to give his wife some sort of root drink that causes miscarriages, and it is said that it WILL cause a miscarriage but ONLY if the zygote wasn't formed with the husband's sperm. That would solve all of these cases if we see the rape coming in advance. Just marry the girl off beforehand!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordeal_of_the_bitter_water

My children are all boys, but my grandchildren are all girls.  I would not be ashamed of my 11 year old granddaughter in the least, nor would I be ashamed of my grandchild, no matter who the biological father was.  They would know the love of myself and my wife as long as we live and the memory of our love all their days.  Furthermore, they would know the Love of God because we would not fail to introduce them to a God that would never leave them, would always be there for them, and would never fail them.

Nobody implied or assumed you would be ashamed of your grandchild. Everyone here can agree that nobody should feel ashamed of a loved one for being raped. It is not morally wrong to BE raped. Unless your holy book says so. The child MIGHT have a hard time believing in El Shaddai and His plan after being raped though. They might have a problem believing in a god that would "always be there for them and would never fail them."

Many here speak of this 11 year old child giving birth as something awful.  Certainly an 11 year old child being raped and impregnated is awful; it is something that should never happen.  But when she's 22, would I want this child, if she were my granddaughter, to come to me crying and say, "Grandpa, why did you let me kill my baby?"  People act as if that's not an option; the person having an abortion suffering unbearable and traumatizing guilt years after the fact, but it certainly happens, and it happens much more than the pro-choice crowd wishes to believe.

She could also come to you as a spirit a la Ebenezer Scrooge crying and say "why did you let me keep that baby only for it to die on the operating table as well as me during birth?"

I believe that through God, all things are possible.  I believe in a God that makes the crooked paths straight.  I don't believe in Utopia this side of Heaven, but I do very much believe in a God whose Grace is sufficient for every person in every situation.  The alternative here is to say of the unborn child "Let's have the abortion and get it over with."  The alternative here is to say to the 11 year old having the abortion "Once this is over, you can get on with your life."  I hope to never have to see any of my granddaughters (or any 11 year old girl, period, for that matter) in this terrible situation.  But ONLY through God can there be a good ending to something like this.

Not ALL things are possible through God, unless you can somehow convince God to do something HE finds immoral. Good luck with that. God makes the "crooked" paths "straight" yes, STRICTLY by his definitions of "crooked" and "straight" ONLY. I mean, he sure straightened our Sodom, Gamorrah and Canaan. If you don't believe in Utopia, go visit Copenhagen or Gothenberg or Helsinki. We'll make a Bernie Bro of you yet, Fuzzy. I'm.pretty sure there are good non-christian endings to all kinds of situations, including abortion.

I'm sure that some here will think me ridiculous.  I really don't care.

https://youtu.be/sgJD2H506uw

[Fuzzy Bear]

^ On the other hand, perhaps the aborted child will be reincarnated into a different body under happier circumstances.


Oh... reincarnation isn't real?  Well guess what, neither is what you just posted.

If you believe in a god that chooses to create a miracle of life out of an incident of violence, lust, hate, pain and fear, then you do you, and you can fucking keep it.

This post explains a lot about you.

Bringing religion in as an argument is usually a good sign you have no other points.

"“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.”  (Proverbs 1:7)

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."  (Proverbs 9:10)

I'll roll with this as my starting points.

[Fuzzy Bear]

You, for some reason, argued that the pro-choice crowd would be happy to inform this same person that yeah, it absolutely would be better if they'd been aborted.  You do realize that basically everybody in the pro-choice camp (excluding the eugenics assholes) is theoretically supportive of every mother's decision whether or not to abort?

Theoretically supportive.   In practice, in many circumstances they assume abortion is the way to go.  It's  all over this thread.

The assumption is there because the specific circumstances make it seem like the obvious solution.  An eleven year-old girl was raped.  To most anybody the solution is absolutely obvious... but if she and the family had freely decided to keep it, I assure you the pro-choice crowd would be supportive and accepting (not that it has anything to do with anybody else at all but them).  Hence why it's "pro-choice", and not "pro-death" as some on the other side like to say.

"If it's a result of rape, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's Down Syndrome, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's a girl, the solution is absolutely obvious."

These assumptions are value judgements about who is worthy of life.  That's inescapable.

The solution is obvious, though? It’s the girl’s decision.

No, that's really not obvious.  When I was 11 years old, I could not go to the doctor without my mother's ascent.

Of course, abortion is "different". 

[Slander and/or Libel]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

There are never any guarantees.  But why have such a low opinion of a sexual assault survivor as to assume that is all they are capable of?
If she doesn't feel able to raise the child herself, there are many people who would gladly give the child a loving home.

Lots of children every year age out of foster care never having been adopted. Let’s not pretend this isn’t the case.

[Slander and/or Libel]

You, for some reason, argued that the pro-choice crowd would be happy to inform this same person that yeah, it absolutely would be better if they'd been aborted.  You do realize that basically everybody in the pro-choice camp (excluding the eugenics assholes) is theoretically supportive of every mother's decision whether or not to abort?

Theoretically supportive.   In practice, in many circumstances they assume abortion is the way to go.  It's  all over this thread.

The assumption is there because the specific circumstances make it seem like the obvious solution.  An eleven year-old girl was raped.  To most anybody the solution is absolutely obvious... but if she and the family had freely decided to keep it, I assure you the pro-choice crowd would be supportive and accepting (not that it has anything to do with anybody else at all but them).  Hence why it's "pro-choice", and not "pro-death" as some on the other side like to say.

"If it's a result of rape, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's Down Syndrome, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's a girl, the solution is absolutely obvious."

These assumptions are value judgements about who is worthy of life.  That's inescapable.

The solution is obvious, though? It’s the girl’s decision.

No, that's really not obvious.  When I was 11 years old, I could not go to the doctor without my mother's ascent.

Of course, abortion is "different". 

In those other cases is the mother’s choice going to involve both risk to the girl’s life and the creation of a whole new person that her daughter will be legally responsible for, for decades?

[Fuzzy Bear]

You, for some reason, argued that the pro-choice crowd would be happy to inform this same person that yeah, it absolutely would be better if they'd been aborted.  You do realize that basically everybody in the pro-choice camp (excluding the eugenics assholes) is theoretically supportive of every mother's decision whether or not to abort?

Theoretically supportive.   In practice, in many circumstances they assume abortion is the way to go.  It's  all over this thread.

The assumption is there because the specific circumstances make it seem like the obvious solution.  An eleven year-old girl was raped.  To most anybody the solution is absolutely obvious... but if she and the family had freely decided to keep it, I assure you the pro-choice crowd would be supportive and accepting (not that it has anything to do with anybody else at all but them).  Hence why it's "pro-choice", and not "pro-death" as some on the other side like to say.

"If it's a result of rape, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's Down Syndrome, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's a girl, the solution is absolutely obvious."

These assumptions are value judgements about who is worthy of life.  That's inescapable.

The solution is obvious, though? It’s the girl’s decision.

No, that's really not obvious.  When I was 11 years old, I could not go to the doctor without my mother's ascent.

Of course, abortion is "different". 

In those other cases is the mother’s choice going to involve both risk to the girl’s life and the creation of a whole new person that her daughter will be legally responsible for, for decades?

Life is not always easy, and there is no Utopia.  The decision also involves matters that an 11 year old is likely not able to comprehend the long-term consequences. 

Not that any of this overrides the issue of the humanity of the unborn, but secular arguments cut both ways on this issue as well.

[afleitch]

I'm actually really pleased pro-choicers are voicing not only their views but the moral, humanist argument behind them. We've been too lax in this, even in this forum and it's times like these where it's needed.

[Slander and/or Libel]

You, for some reason, argued that the pro-choice crowd would be happy to inform this same person that yeah, it absolutely would be better if they'd been aborted.  You do realize that basically everybody in the pro-choice camp (excluding the eugenics assholes) is theoretically supportive of every mother's decision whether or not to abort?

Theoretically supportive.   In practice, in many circumstances they assume abortion is the way to go.  It's  all over this thread.

The assumption is there because the specific circumstances make it seem like the obvious solution.  An eleven year-old girl was raped.  To most anybody the solution is absolutely obvious... but if she and the family had freely decided to keep it, I assure you the pro-choice crowd would be supportive and accepting (not that it has anything to do with anybody else at all but them).  Hence why it's "pro-choice", and not "pro-death" as some on the other side like to say.

"If it's a result of rape, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's Down Syndrome, the solution is absolutely obvious."
"If it's a girl, the solution is absolutely obvious."

These assumptions are value judgements about who is worthy of life.  That's inescapable.

The solution is obvious, though? It’s the girl’s decision.

No, that's really not obvious.  When I was 11 years old, I could not go to the doctor without my mother's ascent.

Of course, abortion is "different". 

In those other cases is the mother’s choice going to involve both risk to the girl’s life and the creation of a whole new person that her daughter will be legally responsible for, for decades?

Life is not always easy, and there is no Utopia.  The decision also involves matters that an 11 year old is likely not able to comprehend the long-term consequences. 

Not that any of this overrides the issue of the humanity of the unborn, but secular arguments cut both ways on this issue as well.

Making an eleven year old bear a child conceived by her violent rape is the equivalent of telling her that her rapist has more say in her future than she does.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

There are never any guarantees.  But why have such a low opinion of a sexual assault survivor as to assume that is all they are capable of?
If she doesn't feel able to raise the child herself, there are many people who would gladly give the child a loving home.

Lots of children every year age out of foster care never having been adopted. Let’s not pretend this isn’t the case.

If a birth parent is seeking adoptive parents to take an infant, the foster care system isn't relevant.  In theory the primary goal of the foster care system is family reunification.  A child can be in the system for years before they are eligible for adoption.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

There are never any guarantees.  But why have such a low opinion of a sexual assault survivor as to assume that is all they are capable of?
If she doesn't feel able to raise the child herself, there are many people who would gladly give the child a loving home.

Lots of children every year age out of foster care never having been adopted. Let’s not pretend this isn’t the case.

If a birth parent is seeking adoptive parents to take an infant, the foster care system isn't relevant.  In theory the primary goal of the foster care system is family reunification.  A child can be in the system for years before they are eligible for adoption.

The point is simply that not all children up for adoption get adopted, let alone to a loving, caring home. Stop being obtuse.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

There are never any guarantees.  But why have such a low opinion of a sexual assault survivor as to assume that is all they are capable of?
If she doesn't feel able to raise the child herself, there are many people who would gladly give the child a loving home.

Lots of children every year age out of foster care never having been adopted. Let’s not pretend this isn’t the case.

If a birth parent is seeking adoptive parents to take an infant, the foster care system isn't relevant.  In theory the primary goal of the foster care system is family reunification.  A child can be in the system for years before they are eligible for adoption.

The point is simply that not all children up for adoption get adopted, let alone to a loving, caring home. Stop being obtuse.

I'm being obtuse for pointing out that something wouldn't apply in this situation?  k.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Imagine growing up knowing that your life was the product of your daddy raping your mommy while she was in fifth grade.  Or not knowing because your family chose to lie to you your whole life instead.

Heartwarming stuff.

Imagine being told by a bunch of woke people it'd be better if you were killed in the womb.

No...?  Why would anybody ever say that?  Is this what you think being pro-choice is about?

Then what is the point of your sarcasm about it being "heartwarming" that such a child would be given the chance to live?

There's no guarantee that such a child would live after birth. Who is to say that the mother wouldn't harm the baby out of rage over being forced to give birth to it or just subject it to years and years of abuse?

There are never any guarantees.  But why have such a low opinion of a sexual assault survivor as to assume that is all they are capable of?
If she doesn't feel able to raise the child herself, there are many people who would gladly give the child a loving home.

Lots of children every year age out of foster care never having been adopted. Let’s not pretend this isn’t the case.

If a birth parent is seeking adoptive parents to take an infant, the foster care system isn't relevant.  In theory the primary goal of the foster care system is family reunification.  A child can be in the system for years before they are eligible for adoption.

The point is simply that not all children up for adoption get adopted, let alone to a loving, caring home. Stop being obtuse.

I'm being obtuse for pointing out that something wouldn't apply in this situation?  k.

Are you claiming every baby who goes up for adoption is swiftly adopted into a loving home? Because my wife and I went to a meeting at an adoption agency, and half of the couples straight up left the meeting when they were informed the available babies were almost certain to be black.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm claiming the number of parents wanting to adopt a baby - of any race - are far greater than the number available for adoption in this country.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'm claiming the number of parents wanting to adopt a baby - of any race - are far greater than the number available for adoption in this country.

It would be shorter to just say you don't really know what you're talking about.

[MasterJedi]

I'm claiming the number of parents wanting to adopt a baby - of any race - are far greater than the number available for adoption in this country.

It would be shorter to just say you don't really know what you're talking about.

Yep, 99% want babies, they don't adopt older than young toddler, so if they stay beyond they're likely there until 18. Demand for babies outstrip what's there, but not adoptions in general.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I'm claiming the number of parents wanting to adopt a baby - of any race - are far greater than the number available for adoption in this country.

And that would somehow justify forcing women to deliver, especially under such circumstances? Again, a breeding cattle vibes here.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I'm claiming the number of parents wanting to adopt a baby - of any race - are far greater than the number available for adoption in this country.

It would be shorter to just say you don't really know what you're talking about.

What is inaccurate?

20 k unrelated domestic infant adoptions per year vs. hundreds of thousands currently seeking to adopt, and millions more who would be willing to.

[afleitch]

None of which has anything to do with a child being forced to give birth to a child.

[DrScholl]

Another thing I don't understand about conservatives is that they are always complaining about welfare, but hate abortion which reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies that could otherwise result in children being raised on welfare. You all are so against welfare so it seems to me that you'd support abortion if it meant that your tax dollars weren't spent on welfare.