New Pope is a former Hitler Youth...?

[Blue Rectangle]

My objection to the new pope is not that he was a Hitler Youth, but the fact that he's a Bush supporter.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

Remaining silent on the issue of abortion would be as big a mistake as not sufficiently opposing the Holocaust.  You can't have it both ways, jfern.  The Church is not going to only speak out against injustices that you oppose and remain silent on issues you support.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

jfern would have been too cowardly to save anyone from Hitler. Ironic he calls someone a Nazi for only saving hundreds of thousands when he was completely vulnerable to the Germans and Italians.

What? Anyways, Pope Pius the XII was connected to the Enabling Act by the Catholic Centrist party.

And the pope never condemmed the killing of the 6 million jews, not even after the Axis powers were completely defeated.

Two miror problems.  First, the Enabling Act was adopted in 1934; Pius XII wasn't pope until 1939.  Second, you seem to assume that the Catholic parties (Z, BVP) were taking orders from the Church; under your logic, John F. Kennedy was "connected" to the Enabling Act because he was Catholic.

As noted previously, Nazism, with would include its anti-Jewish policies, was already condemned and under the "Papal Oath," signed by Pius XII, it was still in force.

Read this:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/P/Po/Pope_Pius_XII2.htm

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

My objection to the new pope is not that he was a Hitler Youth, but the fact that he's a Bush supporter.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

I don't see that in the article anywhere. Yes, it was anti-Kerry, but that does not mean pro-Bush.

Kerry shouldn't have gone against Catholic doctrine. And if he had done that, many of the people who voted for Bush because of "moral issues" would have had a much closer comparison between Bush and Kerry.

Of course as a Catholic, I felt the best thing to do was to vote for neither one of them. This is the same reason that I am almost hoping for a pro-abortion Republican Nominee in 2008 just to seperate the real and fake conservatives.

Bush supports the death penalty, and the Iraq war, which the Church is opposed to. Actually it was basically only Ratzinger that was taking his hardline position. It was overwhelming rejected by the American part of the Church.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

My objection to the new pope is not that he was a Hitler Youth, but the fact that he's a Bush supporter.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

Remaining silent on the issue of abortion would be as big a mistake as not sufficiently opposing the Holocaust.  You can't have it both ways, jfern.  The Church is not going to only speak out against injustices that you oppose and remain silent on issues you support.

You're comparing abortion to the Holocaust? WTF?

[Blue Rectangle]

My objection to the new pope is not that he was a Hitler Youth, but the fact that he's a Bush supporter.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

Remaining silent on the issue of abortion would be as big a mistake as not sufficiently opposing the Holocaust.  You can't have it both ways, jfern.  The Church is not going to only speak out against injustices that you oppose and remain silent on issues you support.

You're comparing abortion to the Holocaust? WTF?

I didn't expect you to agree.  In fact, the point of my post is that you don't agree.

Drawing parallels between abortion and the Holocaust is consistent with the Church's policies on those issues.  The Church believes that abortion kills an innocent human life.  The numbers of abortions has surpassed the number killed in the Holocaust.  The comparison is perfectly valid.

[J. J.]

jfern would have been too cowardly to save anyone from Hitler. Ironic he calls someone a Nazi for only saving hundreds of thousands when he was completely vulnerable to the Germans and Italians.

What? Anyways, Pope Pius the XII was connected to the Enabling Act by the Catholic Centrist party.

And the pope never condemmed the killing of the 6 million jews, not even after the Axis powers were completely defeated.

Two miror problems.  First, the Enabling Act was adopted in 1934; Pius XII wasn't pope until 1939.  Second, you seem to assume that the Catholic parties (Z, BVP) were taking orders from the Church; under your logic, John F. Kennedy was "connected" to the Enabling Act because he was Catholic.

As noted previously, Nazism, with would include its anti-Jewish policies, was already condemned and under the "Papal Oath," signed by Pius XII, it was still in force.

Read this:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/P/Po/Pope_Pius_XII2.htm

You mean "controversial in hindsight."  Yes the Church, though not Pius XII, opposed Communism, and supported Germany, but not at the time of the Holocaust (which started for all practicale purposes in 1942).  Ah, John Paul II opposed Communism, and John XXIII excommunicated Castro.  The Church as indicated opposed Nazi racial policies.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

You mean "controversial in hindsight."  Yes the Church, though not Pius XII, opposed Communism, and supported Germany, but not at the time of the Holocaust (which started for all practicale purposes in 1942).  Ah, John Paul II opposed Communism, and John XXIII excommunicated Castro.  The Church as indicated opposed Nazi racial policies.

The difference with John Paul II is no one doubts his opposition to Nazi Germany.

[AuH2O]

When someone says the Pope runs the Catholic Center Party, he is essentially saying "I am a complete fool, uneducated in history and unwilling to admit error."

That being attributable to jfern.

[Shira]

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome’s synagogue.

“John Paul was hugely appreciated for what he did for and with the Jewish people,” said Lord Janner, head of the Holocaust Education Trust, who is due to attend ceremonies today to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html

At the end of the war he hardly was 18.

[Jake]

1927 + 18 = 1945 = Year the war ended

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

When someone says the Pope runs the Catholic Center Party, he is essentially saying "I am a complete fool, uneducated in history and unwilling to admit error."

That being attributable to jfern.

Read this. That's future Pope XII signing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat



Now do you admit error, you hypocrite?

[Blue Rectangle]

When someone says the Pope runs the Catholic Center Party, he is essentially saying "I am a complete fool, uneducated in history and unwilling to admit error."

That being attributable to jfern.

Read this. That's future Pope XII signing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat



Now do you admit error, you hypocrite?

That's the signing of the Concordat, not the Enabling Act.  The Concordat was something the Church had pushed for long before anyone had ever heard of Adolf Hitler.  The Concordat did not support the Nazi Party in any way or condone its actions; it was an agreement not to interfere politically in exchange for the protection of religious freedoms.  At worst, Pacelli committed the same error Chamberlain did.

[Jake]

When someone says the Pope runs the Catholic Center Party, he is essentially saying "I am a complete fool, uneducated in history and unwilling to admit error."

That being attributable to jfern.

Read this. That's future Pope XII signing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat



Now do you admit error, you hypocrite?

So, a Catholic diplomat, sgining a treaty guaranteeing that the Church will not interfere in politics in exchange for Germany respecting religious freedom proves that the Pope ran the BVP ?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

When someone says the Pope runs the Catholic Center Party, he is essentially saying "I am a complete fool, uneducated in history and unwilling to admit error."

That being attributable to jfern.

Read this. That's future Pope XII signing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat



Now do you admit error, you hypocrite?

That's the signing of the Concordat, not the Enabling Act.  The Concordat was something the Church had pushed for long before anyone had ever heard of Adolf Hitler.  The Concordat did not support the Nazi Party in any way or condone its actions; it was an agreement not to interfere politically in exchange for the protection of religious freedoms.  At worst, Pacelli committed the same error Chamberlain did.

If you'd read the article, you'd see that this was linked to the Enabling Act. Hitler was very happy to get the Concordat signed.

[Blue Rectangle]

When someone says the Pope runs the Catholic Center Party, he is essentially saying "I am a complete fool, uneducated in history and unwilling to admit error."

That being attributable to jfern.

Read this. That's future Pope XII signing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat



Now do you admit error, you hypocrite?

That's the signing of the Concordat, not the Enabling Act.  The Concordat was something the Church had pushed for long before anyone had ever heard of Adolf Hitler.  The Concordat did not support the Nazi Party in any way or condone its actions; it was an agreement not to interfere politically in exchange for the protection of religious freedoms.  At worst, Pacelli committed the same error Chamberlain did.

If you'd read the article, you'd see that this was linked to the Enabling Act. Hitler was very happy to get the Concordat signed.

I did read the article.  Obviously each side got something they wanted.  The agreement to not interfere politically translated into the Church not condemning those in the Center Party who wanted to appease Hitler.  Like I said, there is a parallel to Chamberlain--although Chamberlain deserves more blame because his life and religion wasn't being directly threatened.  The Church in Germany had to have felt that pressure.

[J. J.]

If you'd read the article, you'd see that this was linked to the Enabling Act. Hitler was very happy to get the Concordat signed.

JFRAUD it is excepptionally hard to claim that the Concordat was related to Enabling Act.  The Enabling Act was adopted on March 31, 1933.  The Concordat with the Vatican was signed in July of 1933.  That's a bit like saying the victim died in March but was murdered in the following July.

It should be added that the Vatican had been trying to establish a Concordat (or Treaty) with the Weimar Republic in the 1920, which it was unable to do.  It was successful in dealing establishing ones with state (Lander?) governments (Bavaria, Prussia) in the 1920's, but there were no Nazi state governments until 1931.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If you'd read the article, you'd see that this was linked to the Enabling Act. Hitler was very happy to get the Concordat signed.

JFRAUD it is excepptionally hard to claim that the Concordat was related to Enabling Act.  The Enabling Act was adopted on March 31, 1933.  The Concordat with the Vatican was signed in July of 1933.  That's a bit like saying the victim died in March but was murdered in the following July.

It should be added that the Vatican had been trying to establish a Concordat (or Treaty) with the Weimar Republic in the 1920, which it was unable to do.  It was successful in dealing establishing ones with state (Lander?) governments (Bavaria, Prussia) in the 1920's, but there were no Nazi state governments until 1931.

Learn to read, idiot:

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[J. J.]

If you'd read the article, you'd see that this was linked to the Enabling Act. Hitler was very happy to get the Concordat signed.

JFRAUD it is excepptionally hard to claim that the Concordat was related to Enabling Act.  The Enabling Act was adopted on March 31, 1933.  The Concordat with the Vatican was signed in July of 1933.  That's a bit like saying the victim died in March but was murdered in the following July.

It should be added that the Vatican had been trying to establish a Concordat (or Treaty) with the Weimar Republic in the 1920, which it was unable to do.  It was successful in dealing establishing ones with state (Lander?) governments (Bavaria, Prussia) in the 1920's, but there were no Nazi state governments until 1931.

Learn to read, idiot:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And that had nothing to do with the Concordat.  Yes, absolutely Hitler was trying to prevent opposition from the Lutheran and Catholic Churchs.  It didn't work too well.

Now, to say that the Catholic Church wanted protection for its institutions in Germany (and anyplace else for that matter) would be correct.  The Concordat was an attempt to do that.  The Church had been trying to do that for centuries, however.  Further, it was worried about the Communist threat.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If you'd read the article, you'd see that this was linked to the Enabling Act. Hitler was very happy to get the Concordat signed.

JFRAUD it is excepptionally hard to claim that the Concordat was related to Enabling Act.  The Enabling Act was adopted on March 31, 1933.  The Concordat with the Vatican was signed in July of 1933.  That's a bit like saying the victim died in March but was murdered in the following July.

It should be added that the Vatican had been trying to establish a Concordat (or Treaty) with the Weimar Republic in the 1920, which it was unable to do.  It was successful in dealing establishing ones with state (Lander?) governments (Bavaria, Prussia) in the 1920's, but there were no Nazi state governments until 1931.

Learn to read, idiot:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And that had nothing to do with the Concordat.  Yes, absolutely Hitler was trying to prevent opposition from the Lutheran and Catholic Churchs.  It didn't work too well.

Now, to say that the Catholic Church wanted protection for its institutions in Germany (and anyplace else for that matter) would be correct.  The Concordat was an attempt to do that.  The Church had been trying to do that for centuries, however.  Further, it was worried about the Communist threat.

I'm not going into another 200 post debate like the one with the statistics argument. Re-read what I linked to.

[J. J.]

This is what your source says:

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The Vatican had wanted a Concordat with Germany and with various other contries to protect Catholics there.

Here is some of what the Church got:

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob37.html

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Here is what the Nazis got:

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Here is another site on the Vatican situation:

http://hist.academic.claremontmckenna.edu/jpetropoulos/holocaust/reichconcordat.htm

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The Vatican was in a very difficult situation thoughout this period. 

Of course, none of this had anything to do with the Enabling Act.  You seem to be doing aboiut as well as reading your own sources and the calendar as you do with statistics.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If you had read the link, you'd see that it was connected to the Enabling Act.

The Catholic Church could have stopped Hitler from coming to power, and then how would they have been in a difficult position without Hitler?

However, I'm not going to argue any more, since you've shown great intellectual dishonesty in previous arguments, specfically the statistics one, and this is just a waste of my time.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

For the zillionth time, STFU and read a statistics book on correlation.

[J. J.]

If you had read the link, you'd see that it was connected to the Enabling Act.

The Catholic Church could have stopped Hitler from coming to power, and then how would they have been in a difficult position without Hitler?

I have read the article an at no point does it even imply that the Church encouraged the Catholics as individuals or as a group to support the Enabling Act.  Further, other than the political background, does this refer to the Enabling Act in regard as being of any influence on the Concordat.

You will also note, if you had read what I've quoted, that even after the Enabling Act, there were Catholics that opposed Hitler (I'm sure that there were Catholics that supported him too).  The Condordat, on Hitlers part, was an attempt (relatively unsuccessful) to silence the Catholic Church.  Hitler attempted this with Lutheran Church as well, actually organizing a "National Church."

The Church, on the other had, was attempting to protect itself and its members in Germany (with slightly more success).

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You intellectual dishonesty (or perhaps you intellectual incapasity) are demonstrated here by quoting an article that shows no relation between the Concordat and the Enabling act.  That is exceptionally pathetic.  Of course, the reader can simple click the link and make their own determination.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

You intellectual dishonesty (or perhaps you intellectual incapasity) are demonstrated here by quoting an article that shows no relation between the Concordat and the Enabling act.  That is exceptionally pathetic.  Of course, the reader can simple click the link and make their own determination.

Pleas

Blah blah blah, Sorry J.J spinning doesn't make up for the fact that you're an idiot at statistics and obviously didn't read the link carefully.

Let's face it, the statistiscs issue is a very white and black issue. You're wrong, I'm right. The hell I'm arguing anything less white and black with you, when you can't even admit that you're wrong in such a simple case. Go read a statistics book, or talk to a statistics professor, whatever, since you obviously can't accept the simple logic I put out because you hate me or something.  I'm sure I have more experience with statistics than you.

[J. J.]

For the zillionth time, STFU and read a statistics book on correlation.

I have, and I assume you have as well, but judging from your ability to comprehend even a Wikipedia article, you would find a book of little use.