New Pope is a former Hitler Youth...?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=20462.30

Do you mean the first one on that page? What's so special about that post?

Scroll down to my first post on that page.

So you mean the Catholic church apoligized for nothing? Listen, I'm not saying that the Church sent people to gas chambers, but they were not particularly anti-nazi. In a post above I mentioned that the Church didn't want to condemn the Nazis for starting World War II and killing 6 million jews because they were afraid they'd be seen as pro-communist. Where were their priorities?

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Since you can't be a Catholic and a Facist

I bet those people disagree. Read up some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

Examples of dictatorships or political movements involving elements of clerical fascism include those of Antonio Salazar in Portugal, Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, Ante Pavelic and the Ustashe in Croatia, Miklos Horthy in Hungary, the Iron Guard movement in Romania, and the government of Vichy France.

outside of the Iron Guard, those were all Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexism

Rexism was founded in 1930 by Léon Degrelle, a French speaking Belgian. The name derived from the Latin slogan Christus Rex, "Christ the King," which was also the title of a conservative Roman Catholic journal. The ideology of Rexism called for the moral renewal of Belgian society in conformity with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, by forming a corporatist society, and abolishing democracy.

Gee, what does that sound like?

and the people have no say in a dictatorship

the people don't, but the leaders do, and the leaders in those were clearly Catholic fascists.

and half of those dictatotships were impossed by the Nazis, I fail to see that you have any point at all.

Why would the Nazis impose Catholic fascist dictatorships if they hated Catholics? If a modern day Nazi nation were to invade Israel, I'd doubt they install a Kach dictatorship.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

So calling yourself Catholic makes it so?

jfern is either incredibly stupid, which is fairly likely, or simply unable to see basic reason. Rather elementary institutional theory can disprove his nonsense, let alone things like history and facts.

I'm incredibly stupid? You belong to the party that thinks that the federal income tax and the federal payroll tax can easily be replaced by a 23% sales tax. Sorry, it's your party that is stupid.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

WOW... open a history book.  You obviously have no idea what so ever how any of this came about.

Also, of course we now know that they were not behind it, but that was not the case at the time.

I know what happened. The Communist party (which couldn't vote) and the Socialist party strongly opposed the Enabling Act. No one else did. You read the ing history book.

[12th Doctor]

Since you can't be a Catholic and a Facist

I bet those people disagree. Read up some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

Examples of dictatorships or political movements involving elements of clerical fascism include those of Antonio Salazar in Portugal, Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, Ante Pavelic and the Ustashe in Croatia, Miklos Horthy in Hungary, the Iron Guard movement in Romania, and the government of Vichy France.

outside of the Iron Guard, those were all Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexism

Rexism was founded in 1930 by Léon Degrelle, a French speaking Belgian. The name derived from the Latin slogan Christus Rex, "Christ the King," which was also the title of a conservative Roman Catholic journal. The ideology of Rexism called for the moral renewal of Belgian society in conformity with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, by forming a corporatist society, and abolishing democracy.

Gee, what does that sound like?

and the people have no say in a dictatorship

the people don't, but the leaders do, and the leaders in those were clearly Catholic fascists.

and half of those dictatotships were impossed by the Nazis, I fail to see that you have any point at all.

Why would the Nazis impose Catholic fascist dictatorships if they hated Catholics? If a modern day Nazi nation were to invade Israel, I'd doubt they install a Kach dictatorship.

Pius XII effectily excomunicated all those people you idiot!!!  The Pope said, you cannot be facist and a Catholic.  Thus, those people were not Catholics.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Open question to all Republicans:

WITH HINDSIGHT, would you support the Socialists or Communists in 1930s Germany?

[Rob]

So calling yourself Catholic makes it so?

jfern is either incredibly stupid, which is fairly likely, or simply unable to see basic reason. Rather elementary institutional theory can disprove his nonsense, let alone things like history and facts.

I'm incredibly stupid? You belong to the party that thinks that the federal income tax and the federal payroll tax can easily be replaced by a 23% sales tax. Sorry, it's your party that is stupid.

Here we see more of Jfern's incredible ability to debate- "your PARTY is stupid". I'm still in awe...

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Here we see more of Jfern's incredible ability to debate- "your PARTY is stupid". I'm still in awe...

He was calling me incredibly stupid for no reason.
There are a lot of Republicans who talk about that 23% figure.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Since you can't be a Catholic and a Facist

I bet those people disagree. Read up some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

Examples of dictatorships or political movements involving elements of clerical fascism include those of Antonio Salazar in Portugal, Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, Ante Pavelic and the Ustashe in Croatia, Miklos Horthy in Hungary, the Iron Guard movement in Romania, and the government of Vichy France.

outside of the Iron Guard, those were all Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexism

Rexism was founded in 1930 by Léon Degrelle, a French speaking Belgian. The name derived from the Latin slogan Christus Rex, "Christ the King," which was also the title of a conservative Roman Catholic journal. The ideology of Rexism called for the moral renewal of Belgian society in conformity with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, by forming a corporatist society, and abolishing democracy.

Gee, what does that sound like?

and the people have no say in a dictatorship

the people don't, but the leaders do, and the leaders in those were clearly Catholic fascists.

and half of those dictatotships were impossed by the Nazis, I fail to see that you have any point at all.

Why would the Nazis impose Catholic fascist dictatorships if they hated Catholics? If a modern day Nazi nation were to invade Israel, I'd doubt they install a Kach dictatorship.

Pius XII effectily excomunicated all those people you idiot!!!  The Pope said, you cannot be facist and a Catholic.  Thus, those people were not Catholics.

Can you back up that they were all excommunicated? Many clergy were involved in them as well though, so it wasn't just a few nutty laypersons. From the  main article on the Ustase:

Some priests, mostly Franciscans, particularly in, but not limited to, Herzegovina and Bosnia, took part in the atrocities themselves. Miroslav Filipović, a Franciscan friar, was the most prominent of them. He used the Petrićevac monastery as a base for the Ustaše, and on February 6, 1942, led the Ustaše in a brutal massacre of 2730 Serbs of the nearby villages, including 500 children. The same Filipović later became Chief Guard of Jasenovac concentration camp where he was nicknamed "Fra Sotona".

some more info on the mentioned guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Filipovic

And John Paul also said you couldn't be communist and Catholic, that didn't put an end to liberation theology. Are you saying Oscar Romero, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, Camilo Torres, Ernesto Cardenal and all other Catholic clergy who supported Communist insurgencies were not Catholic then?

[12th Doctor]

WOW... open a history book.  You obviously have no idea what so ever how any of this came about.

Also, of course we now know that they were not behind it, but that was not the case at the time.

I know what happened. The Communist party (which couldn't vote) and the Socialist party strongly opposed the Enabling Act. No one else did. You read the g history book.

The Enabling Act was acctually a part of the German Constitution.  It was installed as a device granting emergency power to Chancellor of Germany.  It was meant to be invoked and then revoked.  No one thought that Hitler would be able to hold onto power the way he did.  The peopel were scared, so they voted for it.  The other parties were not for the Act until the country started to fall apart, then they foolishly enacted it to retain order.  They did not support Hitler.  They did not like Hitler.  In fact, as I pointed out, Bismark hated Hitler, but he let it happen anyway, because there was a general fear in the country.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

WOW... open a history book.  You obviously have no idea what so ever how any of this came about.

Also, of course we now know that they were not behind it, but that was not the case at the time.

I know what happened. The Communist party (which couldn't vote) and the Socialist party strongly opposed the Enabling Act. No one else did. You read the g history book.

The Enabling Act was acctually a part of the German Constitution.  It was installed as a device granting emergency power to Chancellor of Germany.  It was meant to be invoked and then revoked.  No one thought that Hitler would be able to hold onto power the way he did.  The peopel were scared, so they voted for it.  The other parties were not for the Act until the country started to fall apart, then they foolishly enacted it to retain order.  They did not support Hitler.  They did not like Hitler.  In fact, as I pointed out, Bismark hated Hitler, but he let it happen anyway, because there was a general fear in the country.

So the communists and socialists were braver and much smarter than all those people, and were clearly the best choice in 1930s Germany.

[Rob]

Here we see more of Jfern's incredible ability to debate- "your PARTY is stupid". I'm still in awe...

He was calling me incredibly stupid for no reason.
There are a lot of Republicans who talk about that 23% figure.

Okay, but AuH2O was talking about the issue at hand. You responded with a post that was in no way related to the subject, and ended by saying that his party was stupid. Use insults logically.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The Enabling Act was acctually a part of the German Constitution.  It was installed as a device granting emergency power to Chancellor of Germany.  It was meant to be invoked and then revoked.  No one thought that Hitler would be able to hold onto power the way he did.  The peopel were scared, so they voted for it.  The other parties were not for the Act until the country started to fall apart, then they foolishly enacted it to retain order.  They did not support Hitler.  They did not like Hitler.  In fact, as I pointed out, Bismark hated Hitler, but he let it happen anyway, because there was a general fear in the country.

It was clear that Hitler was a madman, and the Socialist and Communist parties strongly opposed it. The whole Reichstag incident was probably engineered by the Nazis.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary (supposed) security, deserve neither liberty or security."

[12th Doctor]

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=20462.30

Do you mean the first one on that page? What's so special about that post?

Scroll down to my first post on that page.

So you mean the Catholic church apoligized for nothing? Listen, I'm not saying that the Church sent people to gas chambers, but they were not particularly anti-nazi. In a post above I mentioned that the Church didn't want to condemn the Nazis for starting World War II and killing 6 million jews because they were afraid they'd be seen as pro-communist. Where were their priorities?

Did you acctually bother to read any of that.  JPII did not apologize for "the Church's" actions.  He apologized for the actions of individual clergy throughout history.  That means something different intirly.   And Pius XI and XII loudly condemed the Nazis before the war and Pius XII did everything he could to oppose Nazism during.

If JPII was apologizing for Pius XII, why in the Hell did he want to make him a saint?

[AuH2O]

Actually they were just stupid and didn't see what was coming. No one really did.

Hindsight of course is 20/20. Though it takes a bizarro like jfern to rely on (baseless) attacks on a national sales tax that doesn't exist to mask his complete lack of knowledge on this subject. Mostly he makes things up with the aim of attacking any institution not dedicated to the destruction of civilization.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

So basically everyone admits the Communists and Socialists had the most foresight, and were the smartest and best people in 1930s Germany.

[Citizen James]

That was a very long time ago.   What (if anything) has he said about facism and Hitler since then?  Will someone form a group of 'Hitler youth for truth"?  Will CBS procure documents claiming that he failed to show up for confession?  Will someone release his dental records to prove that he brushed regularly?

I'll take a wait and see on this.  His choice of name - Benedict the 16th, would indicate to at least some analysts that he plans to put forward a more moderate role than he played as 'defender of the faith'.

My suspicion based on the limited information I have at this time is that in the US conservative Catholics will love him, liberal Catholics will be less than enthusiastic but probably won't leave the church in droves, conservative non-Catholics will probably be mixed (from what I understand he disapproves of the Iraq war, and is a bit less tollerant of other forms of Christianity than his predisessor), and that liberal non-Catholics won't tend to like him much.  Of course, only time will tell for sure.

[12th Doctor]

Since you can't be a Catholic and a Facist

I bet those people disagree. Read up some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

Examples of dictatorships or political movements involving elements of clerical fascism include those of Antonio Salazar in Portugal, Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, Ante Pavelic and the Ustashe in Croatia, Miklos Horthy in Hungary, the Iron Guard movement in Romania, and the government of Vichy France.

outside of the Iron Guard, those were all Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexism

Rexism was founded in 1930 by Léon Degrelle, a French speaking Belgian. The name derived from the Latin slogan Christus Rex, "Christ the King," which was also the title of a conservative Roman Catholic journal. The ideology of Rexism called for the moral renewal of Belgian society in conformity with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, by forming a corporatist society, and abolishing democracy.

Gee, what does that sound like?

and the people have no say in a dictatorship

the people don't, but the leaders do, and the leaders in those were clearly Catholic fascists.

and half of those dictatotships were impossed by the Nazis, I fail to see that you have any point at all.

Why would the Nazis impose Catholic fascist dictatorships if they hated Catholics? If a modern day Nazi nation were to invade Israel, I'd doubt they install a Kach dictatorship.

Pius XII effectily excomunicated all those people you idiot!!!  The Pope said, you cannot be facist and a Catholic.  Thus, those people were not Catholics.

Can you back up that they were all excommunicated? Many clergy were involved in them as well though, so it wasn't just a few nutty laypersons. From the  main article on the Ustase:

Some priests, mostly Franciscans, particularly in, but not limited to, Herzegovina and Bosnia, took part in the atrocities themselves. Miroslav Filipović, a Franciscan friar, was the most prominent of them. He used the Petrićevac monastery as a base for the Ustaše, and on February 6, 1942, led the Ustaše in a brutal massacre of 2730 Serbs of the nearby villages, including 500 children. The same Filipović later became Chief Guard of Jasenovac concentration camp where he was nicknamed "Fra Sotona".

some more info on the mentioned guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Filipovic

And John Paul also said you couldn't be communist and Catholic, that didn't put an end to liberation theology. Are you saying Oscar Romero, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, Camilo Torres, Ernesto Cardenal and all other Catholic clergy who supported Communist insurgencies were not Catholic then?

Pius XII released an encyclical stating that Nazism and Catholicism were incompatable.  From that point on, all people who were involved in those acts were excomunicated.  Very few individuals were acctually excomunicated because of lack of evidence after the war.

[AuH2O]

No, that's just you and jfern.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Did you acctually bother to read any of that.  JPII did not apologize for "the Church's" actions.  He apologized for the actions of individual clergy throughout history.  That means something different intirly.   And Pius XI and XII loudly condemed the Nazis before the war and Pius XII did everything he could to oppose Nazism during.

If JPII was apologizing for Pius XII, why in the Hell did he want to make him a saint?

I assumed they apoligized from this:

The church didn't oppose the Nazis.

And there have been apologizes for that.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

No, that's just you and jfern.

If you're talking about my previous post, then I ask who was better. Communists vs. Socialists vs. Nazis vs. Nazi enablers. With hindsight, who do you pick?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Actually they were just stupid and didn't see what was coming. No one really did.

Hindsight of course is 20/20. Though it takes a bizarro like jfern to rely on (baseless) attacks on a national sales tax that doesn't exist to mask his complete lack of knowledge on this subject. Mostly he makes things up with the aim of attacking any institution not dedicated to the destruction of civilization.

The Communists and Socialists opposed this. I'm sick up hearing these sort of apoligetic arguments. The same people were in favor of the war on Iraq, despite 20 million people protesting world-wide, and guess what, no WMD. It's time to stop mindlessly following your leaders, and time to carefully listen (you don't have to follow their advice), but listen to what the opposition is saying.

This is just the same follow the leader ignore the crazy leftists mentality that got the Enabling Act passed.

[12th Doctor]

It was clear that Hitler was a madman, and the Socialist and Communist parties strongly opposed it. The whole Reichstag incident was probably engineered by the Nazis.

Yes, I am aware of this.  I am not a moron.  It is claer to us now that the Nazis started the fire.  We know that for a fact.  It was not known back then, however.  I don't understand where the miscommunication is here.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Once again, I do not disagree, but that is not the argument.  The argument is whether or not the Catholics acctually supported Hitler.  the answer is "no".

[AuH2O]

So when you make decisions you have hindsight?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

So when you make decisions you have hindsight?

For his hypothetical question, you do.