New Pope is a former Hitler Youth...?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Hitler had a lot of appeal to the sort of people who read the Daily Hate Mail over here... IIRC the various middle class parties collapsed after the Crash and their voters mostly flowed Naziward.

Again, that's oversimplifing things, but it's better than the quasi-marxist bullsh**t coming of a certain individual on this page...

[Democratic Hawk]

An 'ex'-Nazi like Ratzinger .

That's not fair. I don't like him, but that's going too far.

I agree Al. When Ratzinger served in the Hitler Youth and German army, I doubt he had any choice in the matter (i.e. he served not of his own free will)

Dave

[Democratic Hawk]

We know where Ratzinger, rather Benedict XVI (that will take some getting use to), stands on most issues, which is similar to John Paul. Had God wanted the Church to go in a different direction, then the Cardinals would have been guided to vote for someone else.

'God' doesn't exist.  But as a figment I suppose you can imagine him to want all sorts of things, in your imagination.

Until such time as YOU can falsify the existence of God then he DOES exist

The old bull about Galileo abolishing Heaven doesn't stand under scrutiny - any one knows that he simply couldn't see that far!

Dave

[AuH2O]

Btw, the Reichstag fire actually was set by the communists, though the Nazis were blamed for it until fairly recent evidence came out.

jfern would have been too cowardly to save anyone from Hitler. Ironic he calls someone a Nazi for only saving hundreds of thousands when he was completely vulnerable to the Germans and Italians.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

...says the Holocaust denier who said that US entry into WWII was the worst thing the country has ever done and that Churchill was worse than Hitler.

[AuH2O]

Well, aside from knowingly distorting my positions (which of course makes you a liar), you are poorly educated (as has been noted in the past);  Van Der Lubbe, who set the fire, was a known communist agent as was later confirmed by records out of the Soviet Union when it fell. Thus the idea he was a "patsy" holds no water, though naturally people like brtd that spout off about various topics are completely ignorant of them.

[12th Doctor]

Well, aside from knowingly distorting my positions (which of course makes you a liar), you are poorly educated (as has been noted in the past);  Van Der Lubbe, who set the fire, was a known communist agent as was later confirmed by records out of the Soviet Union when it fell. Thus the idea he was a "patsy" holds no water, though naturally people like brtd that spout off about various topics are completely ignorant of them.

Hmmm...  I'l have to look that up.

Soviet records are so useful, aren't they?  They prove that Alder Hiss was a spy as were the Rosenburgs.  And also that McCarthy was being bank-rolled by communist interests.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It was not completely proven Hiss was a spy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alger_Hiss#Evidence_from_Soviet_archives

Hiss claimed he was finally vindicated when in 1992 Russian General Dimitry Antonovich Volkogonov, acting on a request from John Lowenthal to help clear Hiss's name, stated that a search of Soviet archives revealed nothing. However, when questioned, Volkogonov subsequently revealed that he had spent only two days on his search, and had mainly relied on the word of KGB archivists. He stated "What I saw gave me no basis to claim a full clarification. …John Lowenthal pushed me to say things of which I was not fully convinced."

In 1996 the United States government released so-called Venona papers, decoded Russian intelligence intercepts dating from the mid-1940s. These documents mention a Soviet spy at the State Department, code-named "Ales", some of whose biographical details matched those of Hiss, while others, such as Ales being in the military, did not match. Soviet code names of that time, however, did not generally make such close correspondences to individuals' real names, relying instead on what appear to be randomly selected nomenclatures in most cases, names like "Vardo", "Maj", "Clever Girl", and "Albert." For example, one still-undiscovered spy at White Sands was code named "Perseus". Thus, whether Hiss was in fact a Communist or a spy for the Soviets remains unproven. Proponents on either side of the discussion will of course characterize the case differently, with liberals charging Hiss was victimized by a prosecutorial vendetta and that the charges against Hiss were actually an attempt to discredit the United Nations, and conservatives charging that the Hiss case proved that FDR hired traitors and spies for high ranking positions in his administration.

[AuH2O]

Now this fool is claiming Hiss wasn't a traitor?

[Sam Spade]

BRTD, I would suggest that you not go down the idiotic road that Hiss was not a spy and that the Rosenbergs weren't guilty.

Some of your other arguments are occasionally valid, but not that one.

It's just plain wrong.

[ATFFL]

The church didn't oppose the Nazis.

Partisan Democrats certainly do include jFraud and this is evidenced by his continual posts trying to bag every and any Republican.

I back up what I say with evidence, unlike a lot of the Republicans. 

Doth I see a contradiction?  Me thinks I do.

Hey, dumbsh**t, read here. He was so afraid of being seen pro-communist that he was afraid to condemn the nazis.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html


I love it when members of the Liar party always claim I'm wrong, and it turns out that since they are a Liar, they are wrong.

You said you always post evidence.  i showed you, in fact, do not.

Reading comprehension skills: Get some.

[12th Doctor]

The church didn't oppose the Nazis.

Partisan Democrats certainly do include jFraud and this is evidenced by his continual posts trying to bag every and any Republican.

I back up what I say with evidence, unlike a lot of the Republicans. 

Doth I see a contradiction?  Me thinks I do.

Hey, dumbsh**t, read here. He was so afraid of being seen pro-communist that he was afraid to condemn the nazis.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html


I love it when members of the Liar party always claim I'm wrong, and it turns out that since they are a Liar, they are wrong.

You said you always post evidence.  i showed you, in fact, do not.

Reading comprehension skills: Get some.

The funny thing is, here is another article from the very same site, which I posted earlier that higly praises Pius for his active role in saving Jewish lives.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Like is said, there was descriptions of a person similar to Hiss in the papers, but no completely solid proof that it was him. Lots of evidence does point toward Hiss being a spy, but there's no rock solid proof.

[WMS]

So basically everyone admits the Communists and Socialists had the most foresight, and were the smartest and best people in 1930s Germany.

Okay, fact check again.

First, in the Reichstag Election of 1932, there were 584 seats.

The Communists (KPD) and Social Democrats (SPD) had 221 seats in the body, 100/121 respectively (a net loss of 1 seat).  The Nazis lost 34 seats for a total of 196.  The smaller right wing parties gained, for a total of 75 seats.  The center parties (not all Catholic), the Democrats (D, 2) Center (Z, 70), Bavarian People's (BVP, 20).  Now, on paper, these center left could have formed a coalition.

After two months with attempts to form a more centrist government, under von Papen and Scheicher, they gave up.  Why?  For one reason the KPD would never into a coalition, even with the SPD.  In the vote for President in 1925, the KPD ran its own candidate Thalmann,  against SPD (and Centrist) candidate, Marx; Nationalist (but not Nazi) Hindenburg won.  Had the Left been united, the Right never would have entered into power.  

Further the SPD/KPD/Nazis brought down the Burning (Z) government; the SPD pulled out of the coalition, losing at the polls, and triggering the political situation.  Had they remained loyal, there would have no Nazi rise, but that's 20/20 hindsight.

Second, the cabinet sworn in 1933 was not a Nazi cabinet.  It had Hitler as chancellor, Goring as minister without portfolio, and Frick as Interior Minister (he would hold the post until the Soviets captured his office).  The remaining eight members were Rightists, but not Nazis.

The Center parties had every reason to believe that they were not turning the government over to the Nazis.  They were, with 20/20 hindsight wrong.

Just highlighting some very, very, good points J.J. is making. Seems the Left definitely has its own share of blame in how things turned out in Weimar Germany, doesn't it? (speaking as a probable Z voter...)

[opebo]

I don't understand how people got so truely clueless about the period leading up to the war.  It is like they just learned some super dumbed down version of events,

American propaganda.  The Americans after WWII wanted to hide the fact that the Nazis were a right wing traditionalist party who's constitutencies were the Owners and the religious.

[minionofmidas]

Let's get this thread back on topic...

The headline of Germany's most dumbed down major yellow paper today is:

" 'Hitler-Junge'. Engländer beleidigen deutschen Papst."

Made me laugh out loud.

[AuH2O]

Like is said, there was descriptions of a person similar to Hiss in the papers, but no completely solid proof that it was him. Lots of evidence does point toward Hiss being a spy, but there's no rock solid proof.

There's no rock solid proof gas chambers were used by Hitler either, it's a combination of chemical orders and questionable testimony. But that's enough to make it pure fact in your mind-- your Hiss defense is hypocritical and laughable.

[CO-OWL]

Let's get this thread back on topic...

The headline of Germany's most dumbed down major yellow paper today is:

" 'Hitler-Junge'. Engländer beleidigen deutschen Papst."

Made me laugh out loud.

I liked the "Wir sind Papst" headline even better...

If the Hitler Youth story was the major concern about the new Pope, then Ratzinger would indeed be a very good choice.

[Middle-aged Europe]

The British yellow press thinks that every German in public life is a Nazi. So why does BILD make such a fuss about it?

[J. J.]

I don't understand how people got so truely clueless about the period leading up to the war.  It is like they just learned some super dumbed down version of events,

American propaganda.  The Americans after WWII wanted to hide the fact that the Nazis were a right wing traditionalist party who's constitutencies were the Owners and the religious.

I was quoting Stefan Lorant's book Sieg Heil.  Here is the link to his biography:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipea/A0760965.html

[Middle-aged Europe]

Latest BILD headline: "Nach der Nazi-Hetze gegen unseren Papst: Ich war Hitler-Junge. Ich muß mich doch nicht schämen!"
("After the Nazi defamation against our pope: I was in the Hitler Youth. I don´t have to be ashamed!")

No, this wasn´t a quote from Ratzinger. They simply started to look for any former member of the Hitler Youth they could find for an interview.


Now we have the battle of the yellow press: Britain vs. Germany. I wonder who´ll win?
Personally, I would like to see an old-fashioned duel between the editors-in-chief of the "Bild" and "The Sun" on neutral ground (France?).

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

jfern would have been too cowardly to save anyone from Hitler. Ironic he calls someone a Nazi for only saving hundreds of thousands when he was completely vulnerable to the Germans and Italians.

What? Anyways, Pope Pius the XII was connected to the Enabling Act by the Catholic Centrist party.

And the pope never condemmed the killing of the 6 million jews, not even after the Axis powers were completely defeated.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

My objection to the new pope is not that he was a Hitler Youth, but the fact that he's a Bush supporter.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

[J. J.]

jfern would have been too cowardly to save anyone from Hitler. Ironic he calls someone a Nazi for only saving hundreds of thousands when he was completely vulnerable to the Germans and Italians.

What? Anyways, Pope Pius the XII was connected to the Enabling Act by the Catholic Centrist party.

And the pope never condemmed the killing of the 6 million jews, not even after the Axis powers were completely defeated.

Two miror problems.  First, the Enabling Act was adopted in 1934; Pius XII wasn't pope until 1939.  Second, you seem to assume that the Catholic parties (Z, BVP) were taking orders from the Church; under your logic, John F. Kennedy was "connected" to the Enabling Act because he was Catholic.

As noted previously, Nazism, with would include its anti-Jewish policies, was already condemned and under the "Papal Oath," signed by Pius XII, it was still in force.

[Brandon H]

My objection to the new pope is not that he was a Hitler Youth, but the fact that he's a Bush supporter.

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

I don't see that in the article anywhere. Yes, it was anti-Kerry, but that does not mean pro-Bush.

Kerry shouldn't have gone against Catholic doctrine. And if he had done that, many of the people who voted for Bush because of "moral issues" would have had a much closer comparison between Bush and Kerry.

Of course as a Catholic, I felt the best thing to do was to vote for neither one of them. This is the same reason that I am almost hoping for a pro-abortion Republican Nominee in 2008 just to seperate the real and fake conservatives.